Help - advice sought!

[frank9755]

What bike should I buy?

It is predominantly for commuting. My journey is 12 miles each way, across mainly flat central and West London.

I looked into buying a bike in May, but then I discovered my firm's Cycles for Work scheme, which only has a window in November for buying a bike. I decided to wait, so I could use the scheme and also to see what else came on to the market. In the meantime, I've been using a second-hand Powabyke from eBay and a Powacycle which my wife bought in the Summer. I've enjoyed using both but neither is exactly right so I'm still planning to take the plunge next month, and need to make my mind up!

I now know pretty much exactly what I want from a bike.

1. Should be first and foremost a bicycle. This means a quiet motor, pleasant to ride with motor and acceptable without; looking like a proper road or city bike (with no daft bits like suspension or disk brakes and battery discretely located) and it should be light (nearer to 20 kg than 40)

2. A bit faster than the Powacycle. My journey takes 55 minutes out, 60 bacand I get overtaken by many cyclists going faster than me. If I can cut that down by 10% or even 20%, it would be great. Ideally I would like the off-road, higher speed option (c20mph)

3. Rear wheel hub motor is preferred power option. A crank drive would work but I don't want a front hub. Four reasons for this - Having used both, I think a rear wheel drive gives a better ride and steering feel than a front hub, I don't like the hammering that you get through the handlebars from a front hub, the bike racks at my office require you to lift the front of the bike so it is stored in a vertical position and a front hub makes this tricky, and finally I think a front hub looks much more obtrusive. NB while rear hubs have drawbacks such as fewer gearing options and weight skewed towards the back end, these factors are not important for me.

4. NiMH battery. I have not seen anything that has convinced me that lithium is suitable for my bike usage pattern of daily deep battery discharges. I don't recharge at work and both the Powabyke and Powacycle easily manage the 2-way journey. I could recharge at work but it would be an extra chore that I would rather not take on, so I'd ideally like an NiMH with enough capacity for both legs - obviously a faster bike might use more power and in which case I could reconsider this.

5. I need a functioning carrier to enable me to use panniers, mudguards and lights - but I can fit these if needed.

I don't think I am asking for anything too unreasonable. It actually sounds uncannily like Flecc's T-Bike. However, I haven't found anything which meets all of the above. There are some near misses. These are the ones I have/am consdering:

1. Ezee Torq. I think my journey is classic Torq territory. It is available in NiMH, but it has the front hub motor which I don't want. Swapping the wheels over is too ambitious a modification for me

2. Wisper 905SE. I had high hopes of this. It seems to be finally becoming available. However the Wisper guys seem fixed on their lithium battery set up, which is a showstopper for me, and have not reported as they said they would (in the Wisper Clinic section) on discussions they said they would have with their battery partner. I may be able to get them to sell me one without the battery and find a suitable 36v NiMH.

3. Heinzmann Estelle Sport. Another high performer but doesn't seem to offer anything the Torq doesn't, while the front wheel hub motor is heavier. Also I'm not sure about the appearance of the battery rack.

4. Powacycle Salisbury. My wife's Powacycle actually fits all my criteria apart from more speed. If there just isn't anything faster that doesn't involve an unacceptable sacrifice, this would be acceptable.

5. Synergie Mistral. Trying to think laterally, I came across this bike the other day when looking for a 36v rear-motored bike. It can't find out the motor's peak output but expect it to be higher than the Powacycle. It looks ok and seems to have a good following on its Yahoo group and amongst this forum. OK - it is Lithium but a.) its not a high performance bike like the Ezee and Wisper models hence I might get a decent life out of it and b.) both the bike and batteries are moderately priced so I could afford a new one (or better, an NiMH replacement) and still have a low lifetime cost.

6. Gazelle Easy Glider. This is not a speedster but I think it would be faster than the Powacycle on the flat (ie my route) but probably not up hill (less important to me). Otherwise a great bike that would be a pleasure to ride - although a little heavy. It has Lithium batteries, but as a lower powered bike I could perhaps get away with it.

7. Nano kit. I really didn't want to go down the kit route but the idea of trying to source different batteries started me in this direction, and if what I want isn't out there as a complete bike it is an option. A to B raves about the Nano. It seems to have a lot going for it: they do a version with lower speed motor for full size wheels, it can go in the back wheel, they do an NiMH batterey for it, peak output is significantly higher than the Powacycle (something like 360 vs 260 Watts) so, depending on how I have the motor geared and the wheel size, it could be quite fast. But kits are a bit of a risk in that it might not quite look right and I don't know exactly what performance (speed, range, hill-climbing) I would end up with. I've not heard of anyone doing a Nano in a 26" or 28" wheel. Another disadvantage of a kit is that I'm not sure I could get it through the Cyclescheme, so may have waited for 6 months for no financial benefit!

8. Crystalite kit. This is the other kit option that has stood out to me. This motor is used in the Torq so can certainly do the job. They also have a version with two speeds which allows you to flip between high torque and high speed modes. But again, I don't know exactly how it would turn out and what performance it would deliver.

Thanks for reading this far! Some questions:

• What do you think I should go for?
• Have I made any false assumptions?
• Have I overlooked any better alternatives?
• Is anyone aware of a good niMH battery that could be a good replacement for the lithium ones eg on the Wisper?
• Is the Torq front-end very heavy? The suspension forks on the new one don't help here, but Is it possible to lift the front up to fit it vertically into a stand without risking injury? I tried
• Does anyone have any experience of the Nano or Crystalite hub kits and what (speed/range/climbing) performance they deliver? What are they like to cycle - do they have acceptable resistances to pedalling (when you pedal above cut-out speed)?

All comments gratefully received!

Frank

 

[aroncox]

I personally don't think the front motor on the Torq is all that heavy, or indeed changes the way I ride at all (except for jumping up kerbs). I cycle through Central London on very bumpy roads and I don't feel having the motor in the front wheel makes all that much difference. I have lifted mine into vertical stands and the problem is in lifting the rear wheel into the stand rather than getting the bike vertical. It once dropped on my head when I was doing this, which gave me quite a fright as it hit me hard and I wondered how long it would be before someone found me in the bike room had it hit me any harder!

I also like running the Torq delimited, the extra speed is really nice on a commute to work as it means that bit longer in bed.

I'm not sure if you can go there and back without charging the Torq, maybe if you don't run it delimited, I have a charger at work and so can charge it at both ends. Definately don;t buy the Lithium battery.

 

[alex]

The Heinzman Estelle Sport would be my choice if you really need the speed, I found I was using the brakes alot during a London test drive slowing for speed bumps etc. But the quality of build is superb, I know of a Heinzman at least 15 years old & still going well. Another option is the Carrera Sparc sold by Halfords (some branches only), rear hub motor, quiet, light enough to ride without power comfortably. NiMH battery but you would need to charge at the office or carry a spare as the battery is small (2.7Kg, 16V, range 20 miles max.).

 

[jac]

you could go to vita electric near hampstead heath and try a couple of there bikes the usualy have good selection but phone before you go as the go out demonstating bikes a lot

 

[flecc]

2. Wisper 905SE. I had high hopes of this. It seems to be finally becoming available. However the Wisper guys seem fixed on their lithium battery set up, which is a showstopper for me, and have not reported as they said they would (in the Wisper Clinic section) on discussions they said they would have with their battery partner. I may be able to get them to sell me one without the battery and find a suitable 36v NiMH.

It's possible the 905se won't suffer from cut-out problems with Li-ion as the battery is higher capacity at almost 14 Ah. In addition it uses a compound cathode which in theory will be more willing to issue high currents. I doubt it's life will be better though, li-ions having much shorter lives that NiMh.

3. Heinzmann Estelle Sport. Another high performer but doesn't seem to offer anything the Torq doesn't, while the front wheel hub motor is heavier. Also I'm not sure about the appearance of the battery rack.

Heinzmann motors come in rear wheel versions as well, and Kinetics could build one into a normal bike for you.

4. Powacycle Salisbury. My wife's Powacycle actually fits all my criteria apart from more speed. If there just isn't anything faster that doesn't involve an unacceptable sacrifice, this would be acceptable.

As you say, one that fits, though low powered.

5. Synergie Mistral. Trying to think laterally, I came across this bike the other day when looking for a 36v rear-motored bike. It can't find out the motor's peak output but expect it to be higher than the Powacycle. It looks ok and seems to have a good following on its Yahoo group and amongst this forum. OK - it is Lithium but a.) its not a high performance bike like the Ezee and Wisper models hence I might get a decent life out of it and b.) both the bike and batteries are moderately priced so I could afford a new one (or better, an NiMH replacement) and still have a low lifetime cost.

Shorter li-ion life again, so once again the high running cost, though the low bike price can offset that a bit.

6. Gazelle Easy Glider. This is not a speedster but I think it would be faster than the Powacycle on the flat (ie my route) but probably not up hill (less important to me). Otherwise a great bike that would be a pleasure to ride - although a little heavy. It has Lithium batteries, but as a lower powered bike I could perhaps get away with it.

The same li-ion life problem, but with a high priced bike. It's also a slow bike, so apart from the quality, nothing gained over the Salisbury at one third the price.

7. Nano kit. I really didn't want to go down the kit route but the idea of trying to source different batteries started me in this direction, and if what I want isn't out there as a complete bike it is an option. A to B raves about the Nano. It seems to have a lot going for it: they do a version with lower speed motor for full size wheels, it can go in the back wheel, they do an NiMH batterey for it, peak output is significantly higher than the Powacycle (something like 360 vs 260 Watts) so, depending on how I have the motor geared and the wheel size, it could be quite fast. But kits are a bit of a risk in that it might not quite look right and I don't know exactly what performance (speed, range, hill-climbing) I would end up with. I've not heard of anyone doing a Nano in a 26" or 28" wheel.

I wouldn't touch it. A to B rave about it because of their obsession with getting a light folding electric bike, and this heavily biases their opinion since it has worked quite well in the Brompton, albeit slowly, only driving to 13 mph. It's a fairly low power so would gain only a little over the Salisbury when in a full size bike. In addition, there are question marks on the reliability of the roller drive system which has caused drive slipping problems. At the end of the day you'd have a bitsa with the battery awkwardly stowed somewhere.

8. Crystalite kit. This is the other kit option that has stood out to me. This motor is used in the Torq so can certainly do the job. They also have a version with two speeds which allows you to flip between high torque and high speed modes. But again, I don't know exactly how it would turn out and what performance it would deliver.

Again the bitsa objection. Rule out the "two speed" straight away, since in the high torque mode the battery consumption is huge, and Team Hybrid warn of this. Electrical methods of gaining high torque always have this disadvantage. The Torq does not use the Crystalite motor, adverts seeming to say this being misleadingly laid out. I have a question mark on the long term use of these Crystalite kit motors, since I've only ever seen them used for high performance stunting rather than serious long term use in working bikes. They might be ok for that, but it's a blind purchase.

Which to choose?

A Wisper 905se could work, since the fairly flat territory would not stress the battery. With the common 33% capacity loss per annum you'd be ok with a once a day charge for about 18 months probably, but need to charge at both ends eventually. That would take the battery to three years.

The Salisbury's range might not make the return journey, but with charging at both ends you'd be ok. Given the low bike and battery price, and the fairly light battery, you could ride with two of them as I do on my bikes sometimes.

The others don't fit your requirements in one way or another as I've indicated in some cases and you have in others.

That said, if you went for the Torq trekking you'd be ok in a similar way to the Wisper, since the front supension would take away most of the front hub motor ill effects, and it's modified torque gives the battery an easier time. It would still be a bit short lived though, like other lithiums, and with it's 10 Ah I think about two years would be the most you'd get on your journey with charging at both ends, so NiMh would be better for the longer life.
.

 

[coops]

A lot of detailed analysis there Frank: you're clearly giving this as much thought as I did, (even more maybe ) before I went to 50cycles, tried a delimited Torq & was hooked . I've hardly looked back though and am very happy with it, especially for long-distance road trips it excels.

The standard Torq front hub motor isn't all that heavy or visually obtrusive: the lightest crystalyte 4xx series motors weigh around 6-8kg excluding wheel build, Torq's is around 3.5kg including the rim, so ~2.5-3kg without, but its the high unsprung weight to frame weight ratio which makes it feel heavier, as flecc has said elsewhere. Ride 'harshness' can be very successfully tamed by careful tyre pressure monitoring, handlebar angle position and care when riding, and really good comfort grips eg specialized body geometry 2 are a virtually mandatory upgrade in my view for long journeys due to their ergonomic shape aswell as shock absorbing qualities . I also replaced the sprung seatpost with a rigid one and now the bumps are felt less exclusively through the handlebars they are also less noticeable . (I'm so glad to be re-educated here about what makes a good bike!)

If you're not sure that cuts it for you, there's the trekking as said, and many other good suggestions here happy choosing Frank .

P.S. I find riding the Torq delimited at intermediate speeds ie 17-18mph a good compromise in terms of speed and economy, getting range of 20-25 miles on gently undulating roads quite easily with NiMH and gentle, easy pedalling. Although other bikes can give 17mph on a full charge, that will quickly drop to ~15mph maximum with NiMH for instance.

I know, its only a few mph, but it must be a psychological thing - I couldn't ride an ebike limited to 15mph having tried it, it just feels too limited especially in fast traffic when most drivers exceed 30mph anyway...

Stuart.

 

[frank9755]

Thanks all,

Some interesting comments. That helps me narrow it down.

In particular, Flecc, thanks for the warning about kits! Do you think the Henizmann one would be any less 'bitsa' than Crystalite or Nano? I guess they have a rack so it may look better - more of a complete solution. I had ruled it out as I thought it was older, heavier, noisier, but may be worth thinking about as more of a proven concept.
BTW, its AtoB who imply say the Quando uses a Crystalite (in their electric bike price list they say it is a motor from Team Hybrid).

I had wondered if the very higher capacity of the Wisper battery combined with my flat ride would make it feasible. In truth I guess no-one knows, but thanks for your opinion; may be worth thinking further about. Its the Sustainability Show this weekend so I won't chase David or Doug today!

The Powacycle definitely has the range. My wife's Windsor, which I am using today, can get to work, back home and to work again on a single charge (NiMH). Hers is very sit-up-and-beg; if I had my own one I could adjust it to get a slightly more aerodynamic and powerful riding position, which should give me a couple of mph on the long straights! Howver I am going to struggle to get excited about getting another Powacycle, so that really is the back-up option. Probably the same goes for a Synergie

Aroncox, your point on front wheel hub motors in veretical stands was very helpful. I hadn't thought about that aspect before; the bike will obviously be top-heavy when it is vetical. That probably knocks the Torq off the list!

Alex, thanks for comments on the Heinzmann. I think it stays on the list but only as a rear wheel kit implementation. Also I'll look into Carerra Sparc. Do you know where I can read about that? All I can find on google is your postings about it in this forum!

Thanks everyone,

Frank

 

[flecc]

The Heinzmann makes up for it's older design with the best quality and reliability of the lot, streets ahead in that respect, and the rear rack is functional though a bit clumsy. If you aren't going to use rear panniers, there are alternative twin smaller pannier style batteries for it. These brush motors are very reliable, and as you've seen, eZee have reintroduced their equally reliable one in the Liv.

The A to B Team Hybrid mention on the Torq motors refers to Team Hybrid having bought four motor & controller sets for the Quando at an early stage, that being the same motor except for spindle length. It's nothing to do with their Crystalite agency, and Mark there has confirmed that to me.

I'm not a fan of the Sparc motor design with it's twin low powered motors. Rooel in this forum likes them, and there's no doubt this second version is much better than the failure that the first one was.

In my view it's over complex yet has missed the opportunity to drive through the gears that are built in, so it has no advantage over normal hub motors but the disadvantages of unnecessary extra weight and complexity. Ultimately pointless.
.

 

[alex]

You will struggle to get any info. on Carrera Sparc, Halfords online does not list it, only some stores sell it & even in those that do the staff are profoundly ignorant,e.g. "you only need to charge the battery every 3 months". Fflecc is obviously unimpressed by the system &, admittedly, it is a low powered arrangement but I love it. The Pedelec drive means there is no temptation to throttle from a standstill risking strain on battery or other components. There is no electric cutout connected to the brakes, the controller just detects that you have stopped pedalling & instantly stops the motor. I like that the 5 gears are contained within the motor hub protected from dirt. Seven hundred pounds well spent, I never use my van or car now if I can bike instead. I have a list of Halford branches which stock the Carrera but I suspect each store probably only received one so anyone interested may have to order it if their nearest stockist has sold out.

 

[nigel]

Nigel

I also
think that the new sparc in halfords is a step in the right direction it is a normal bike to look at there is a small battery under the seat it is very light in weight to me it looks very streamlined and is on the right lines lets hope it catches on nigel

 

[flecc]

My large Halfords aggressively informed me that they don't do electric bikes and refused to believe me on the existence of the Carrera Sparc, getting offensive when I persisted. I'm hopeful that one will turn up there and embarrass them.

The eZee bikes used the pedelec control in lieu of brake cutouts in European supplies and that's common practice there.
.

 

[frank9755]

The Heinzmann kits are interesting but the thing I've never been able to get comfortable with is the rack and battery arrangement. Firstly, I think it looks a bit daft. Secondly, I regularly use panniers, which I don't think is compatible. Also, having done a little research, several reviews mention the racks not lasting very long.

I can't see any reason not to use a different battery with the Heinzmann system. Presumably, as long as the voltage is right it will work. Has anyone done this or heard of it being done?

Frank

 

[flecc]

Any battery with sufficient capacity and correct voltage will do Frank.

I'd suggest not less than 10 Ah though, since the Heinzmann is a thirsty beast and is known for it's short range, and not a Li-ion as they don't like high current drains.
.

 

[halfmedley]

Just to add my twopennorth to the thread: I ride a Synergie Mistral and suspect it would be too slow for you. Electrical assistance seems to run down from around 12-13mph onwards and is gone by 15mph. My riding style is more flaneur than frantic though, so it suits my purposes.