Help & Advice Please.

[LeighPing]

So, it is about the speed then?

Point taken on the rest.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

I'd still argue the problem is not related to the speed. If the speed was an issue normal bicycles would be subject to tax / testing and insurance.

So the issue must be the power assist... ie the motor.

So the world is coming up with a line in the sand... which there needs to be.

So currently its a motor that 250w nominal power and cuts off at 15.5mph. You can go faster if you want, you just have to pedal. So its not about the speed the bicycle will do.

If your bicycle is more powerful than that, or doesn't have the cut off, its a motorbike in the eyes of the law so you need to tax / test and insure it.

Seems fair enough to me?

 

[LeighPing]

Fair enough then. I've no issues with lines in the sand either.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Don't forget that we were all riding round on 250w bikes when the law was 200w. We got enough critical mass that they had to change the regulations.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

Don't forget that we were all riding round on 250w bikes when the law was 200w. We got enough critical mass that they had to change the regulations.

I'd love to agree with you that it was simply people breaking the law that encouraged the government to change it.

However I'm sure you'll appreciate that it simply wasn't the case.

In that case you had the cycle & motorcycle industry lobbying for it, and the government also in agreement that they should align themselves with world wide laws - it was just a matter of time to sort it legally.

With regard to more powerful eBikes, you're going against the Cycle and Motorbike lobbying groups and the government seems to have no interest in approving what are essentially un licenced mopeds.

So don't hold your breath for a change.

 

[(NoLongerRegistered#15675)]

Ktm Industries

Think you,ve explained it better than I tried too.
Totally agree with your posts.

I don't think most folk realise the great position pedelecs are in, with regard to use in national parks etc.

It would be so easy for us to lose this privilege..

Good points, well explained.

On the issue if folk modifying their own bikes...
There is a big difference between an individual changing something and a supplier openly selling kit to build essentially illegal pedelecs.
( or convert them into illegal ones)
I,ve found it quite a shock seeing companies and individuals openly discussing it on here..
Doing something illegal is one thing,telling everyone you do is another.
( look on ebay, google dongles, its even on youtube showing what to do ???)

 

[LeighPing]

I don't see why tax, insurance and mot shouldn't apply to standard bicycles. They're also road users after all. Some of them tank along at 35mph, with untested brakes.

Maybe they should lobby for that change too.

We're not the soviet union Flud. It's great to be able to use our national parks. Freely.

 

[(NoLongerRegistered#15675)]

I don't see why tax, insurance and mot shouldn't apply to standard bicycles. They're also road users after all. Some of them tank along at 35mph, with untested brakes.

Maybe they should lobby for that change too.

We're not the soviet union Flud. It's great to be able to use our national parks. Freely.

So do I but its a privilege not a right on an ebike.

Just don't get the reasoning behind illegalising pedelecs. They are brilliant as they are. If you want high power,faster speeds just get a motorbike.

Would be easy to police no ebikes in country parks, impossible to differentiate legal from otherwise.

We are making it easy to justify.

 

[LeighPing]

So do I but its a privilege not a right on an ebike.

Just don't get the reasoning behind illegalising pedelecs. They are brilliant as they are. If you want high power,faster speeds just get a motorbike.

Would be easy to police no ebikes in country parks, impossible to differentiate legal from otherwise.

We are making it easy to justify.

Who's illegalising pedelecs? If anyone is going to do that, it will be you Flud. You rant over it quite a bit mate. To be fair though, that'll have about the same impact as standing on a motorway bridge shouting at the fast lane to slow down to 70mph.

Yes, ebikes are brilliant fun. Will they let anyone ride a motorbike through the park at 15mph? Nope, therefore it's an ebike.

No-one's saying go blast an ebike around your local park at 30mph. Like all things, common sense prevails. High speed ebikes are for private land, off road use. Otherwise they have a street legal option.

But let's be realistic, plenty will tell you you're cheating at 10mph. By your ethic, enjoy it while you can mate. eBay's selling loads this year. Especially those Chinese fat ebikes. I've seen two around here already. They're bikes, they're ridden sensibly. There is no problem. Perceive one if you so desire.

 

[anotherkiwi]

You can pump 100A through it, still legal. (although your motor would go a little bit melty/on fire)

Can you get 100 A from a 48 V battery? As well as the 250 W and 25 km/h remember there is a 48 V cap on maximum legal voltage.

 

[danielrlee]

Can you get 100 A from a 48 V battery? As well as the 250 W and 25 km/h remember there is a 48 V cap on maximum legal voltage.

Discharge rate is theoretically unlimited as you can just add more capacity to increase the maximum of a battery pack.

Also, even the cheap Hobbyking 5Ah 20C LiPo packs are rated for 100A, although would likely sag lots.

 

[anotherkiwi]

I was just trying to imagine a standard sized battery giving 100 A. I know that with enough Lipo you can go that high <evil laugh>...

 

[danielrlee]

Totally feasible for 'regular' packs. Samsung 25R 18650 cells are good for 10C, so a 10Ah pack of these would be good for 100A discharge.

 

[trex]

pumping 100A into a BBS01?
I try to keep the OP away from the dark side.
15A @ 40V is enough for 99.9% of cases unless he's stuck in mud.

 

[VictoryV]

Totally feasible for 'regular' packs. Samsung 25R 18650 cells are good for 10C, so a 10Ah pack of these would be good for 100A discharge.

The Vulcan Aircraft had internal 112v lead acid batteries (4 x 28v in series). Normally to start their engines you would use an external diesel generator plugged in under the wing. However when dispersed to unequipped sites for Quick Reaction Alerts they could use their batteries to start 1 engine which would then be used to start the other 3 engines. The load to start that one engine from the battery was 700 amps and the batteries sagged from 112v to 100v. Once one engine was running I think they could start the remaining 3 engines simultaneously from its generator. The internal busbar installation was epic engineering

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Can you get 100 A from a 48 V battery? As well as the 250 W and 25 km/h remember there is a 48 V cap on maximum legal voltage.

That's the advantage of lipos. A pair of these are smaller than your average ebike battery, but can give 400 amps at 48v.

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__18210__Turnigy_nano_tech_8000mAh_6S_25_50C_Lipo_Pack.html

 

[anotherkiwi]

200 Amps at 37 V isn't too shabby either and 320 € for a 16 Ah 37 V (4 x 5C connected 2P 2S) battery is about half the price of a 16 Ah Li-Ion battery. I looked at nanotech but they were out of my budget range at the time, I like the form factor they fit in small places.

 

[Wisper Bikes]

So do I but its a privilege not a right on an ebike.

Just don't get the reasoning behind illegalising pedelecs. They are brilliant as they are. If you want high power,faster speeds just get a motorbike.

Would be easy to police no ebikes in country parks, impossible to differentiate legal from otherwise.

We are making it easy to justify.

I absolutely agree with your comment, riding a powered vehicle without the need to register, tax, insure etc is a privalige and not a right. We need to be very careful that we don't give any reason for the government to reconsider.

However... 350W nominal bikes with a 28mph limit are not motorbikes. Even standard mopeds are many times more powerful. They are a little bit more powerful than a standard pedelec and don't have the pesky cut off at 16mph. They are more useful and certainly more fun. There should be discussion about where they are used, the use of helmets etc, but in my oppinion we should be working towards a specific class for these bikes as in Germany, Holand etc.

There is absolutely no doubt they will be sold and used in the UK in very big numbers. This may possibly jeopardise the special position in law of the standard pedelec, so let's all push for legalisation.

All the best, David

 

[(NoLongerRegistered#15675)]

I absolutely agree with your comment, riding a powered vehicle without the need to register, tax, insure etc is a privalige and not a right. We need to be very careful that we don't give any reason for the government to reconsider.

However... 350W nominal bikes with a 28mph limit are not motorbikes. Even standard mopeds are many times more powerful. They are a little bit more powerful than a standard pedelec and don't gave the pesky cut off at 16mph. They are more useful and certainly more fun. There should be discussion about where they are used, the use of helmets etc, but in my oppinion we should be working towards a specific class for these bikes as in Germany, Holand etc.

There is absolutely no doubt they will be sold and used in the UK in very big numbers. This may possibly jeopardise the special position in law of the standard pedelec, so let's all push for legalisation.

All the best, David

Good post and points well made.
Totally agree.
Your stand point is a responsible one, hopefully giving reassurance to policy makers industry can police itself. ???

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Many of the "350w" 28 mph electric bicycles are physically identical in all respects to the "250w" versions apart from the plate on the frame. If you know how, you can set your bike to be either version. We know that's the case with Bosch motors. As Yamaha, BrosePanasonic and Kakhoff have similar power to the Bosch up to 25 km/h, we can assume that it's the same with them. There's are motors too that have identical 350w and 250w versions. Just about every savvy manufacturer is doing it, so it's no big deal.