Helmets @ Aldi

[Cyclezee]

I smiled as I posted before, knowing that I would get this answer in one form or another John. The fact is that even this is partly under one's control as I've posted previously. So here once again:

In the early years of my driving I suffered three collisions with other vehicles, two minor one with a bit more car damage and each time the other driver admitting blame without argument. But at the time I'd been riding many more miles on motorbikes without any incidents, despite being on the same roads and journeys. Thinking about this it struck me that I must be playing a part in that outcome, there being no other possible explanation.

I took the trouble to return to the scene of that last and worst incident to study the situation and consider the whole event. From that I was able to see some ways that behaving slightly differently could have avoided any collision and another that could have alleviated the outcome, despite the other driver's clear mistake.

So I changed some things then and also started to refer to myself always as a learner driver since I'd just found after several years that there was always more to learn. That was 49 years ago and I've never had another incident since when driving cars or trucks or riding motorbikes. That is clear proof that we can also affect the outcomes of others bad behaviour on the roads.

The comeback as always may well be someone saying that an accident can always happen. Of course, anything can, a piece of an aircraft might drop on me, a part may fall from a building and kill me, a sink hole may open and swallow me, but all are too unlikely for me to take any precautions against them.

Likewise as my life has shown throughout, the chance of my suffering a life changing head injury while cycling is also highly unlikely.

There is far too much hysteria and exaggeration on this subject. Each year around 13 cyclists die in London while there are some 144 million commuting journeys alone, clearly the risks are incredibly low, and it's interesting that nearly all those cyclists were body crushed to death, not killed by head injuries.

I'll end with another example of how road users can influence accident incidence. Up to near the end of June this year 7 London cyclists had died in collision with trucks and I was one of many kicking up a fuss about this, though I advocated publicity as the answer while others tended to blame trucks and drivers.

We got the publicity but the trucks and drivers are still there and just the same. The outcome is that there hasn't been another cyclist killed in any traffic accident in London in this second half, showing how just making people think can solve the problem.

That's primary safety, not having the accident in the first place, rather than the secondary safety of effort concentrated on alleviating accident outcomes instead of the effort being on preventing them.
.

Kind of guessed that was what you would come back with Tony
Once more we will just have to agree to differ on this topic.

 

[Andy_H]

This thread has gone wildly off topic , Luck and fate etc. are just made up words that nobody understands, two people pull two slot machine handles one wins sod-all the other £1000, not luck, it just happens, OK the above has nothing to do with helmets - I wear one because I don't trust car / van / lorry drivers, I wore a seat belt for the same reason, but that's my choice, I use wood saws a lot at home, but I don't use any guards - again my choice, I'm confident in my own skill not to cut off my hand.

If someone is happy with their own ability and understands the risks, then I don't see a problem, as a bike rider, if one is involved in a collision we all understand that we will come off worse, the car driver in his / her little tin box isn't going to be harmed, we all decide how much confidence we have at staying out of trouble, if not we would all be dressed like something out of 'its a knockout' (assuming your old enough to remember that).

If someone is happy to cycle without a helmet knowing their own skill, ability and consequences, then I'm certainly not the person to say they are wrong, its individual choice,

 

[Lardo]

If someone does run me down with their car it is not me not being careful after all!

This is the key point I wanted to discuss. The posts from flecc read as though through his own vigilance he can mitigate the dangers of cycling to the point of not feeling a helmet would be of use. As you've stated the cause of accidents is very often out of the cyclists hands, and although some risks can be minimised through awareness and positioning many cannot.
My own experience as a paramedic is that helmets I have examined have sustained enough damage that the cyclists would most certainly have suffered head injuries without them.
I know I may have a bleak outlook on this but it stems from my own experiences. I can think of no reasons NOT to wear a cycle helmet and plenty of reasons why to. The discomfort reason strikes me as little more that the seeking of an excuse not to.
As much as I value personal choice where it is reasonable, this isn't an area I feel choice should realistically enter I to it. The same for riding a motorbike in safety gear or doing trackdays without a lid. The impact is as much on the families of the victim as much as the victim themselves.

I fully appreciate I'm not going to change anyone's mind on the matter and I'm not trying to. I just want to present another opinion in the name of discussion.

 

[Yamdude]

One of the things you'll never hear......
Cyclists who dont wear a helmet, telling cyclists who do wear a helmet, that they shouldn't.

 

[flecc]

This is the key point I wanted to discuss. The posts from flecc read as though through his own vigilance he can mitigate the dangers of cycling to the point of not feeling a helmet would be of use.

I don't think they read at all like that, especially as I acknowledged to another inquirer that I would wear a helmet for the likes of mountain biking since the high risks then justified that choice.

I fully appreciate I'm not going to change anyone's mind on the matter and I'm not trying to. I just want to present another opinion in the name of discussion.

And I'm entirely happy with that if it were true, but you decided to to on the attack with criticism and dismissal of my choices, which whether you meant it or not is arrogant. My choices are for my circumstances and you have no first hand knowledge of those.

John and yourself have argued against my choice and its no coincidence that both of you are or have been experienced medical professionals. What you perhaps fail to realise is just how much a distorted and unbalanced a view of this matter it gives you through witnessing at first hand so many unhappy outcomes.

My view is that of someone who has witnessed just one head injury outcome for another cyclist, and relatively minor at that. I also witnessed the accident and saw the mistake that cyclist made, one which I would never make. That's a more balanced view since it's a real world one and not the artificial world where large numbers of accident outcomes are brought together in one place.
.

 

[anotherkiwi]

The discomfort reason strikes me as little more that the seeking of an excuse not to.

Discomfort hence distraction is in my view a risk increasing factor. Lifting my hand off the bar to try and find a more comfortable position for the helmet at the wrong time could very well be the cause of an accident.

 

[Lardo]

Then correct helmet choice would mitigate this risk, no?

 

[soundwave]

i cant get over the prices for neck braces tho kids cheap adult mega bucks

 

[EddiePJ]

Reason enough for me to be glad of wearing one.

Seeing my cousins cycle helmet split in half from impact of hitting a granite kerb when he fell on black ice whilst commuting to work is another. No third party involved.

Third, is that I wouldn't want to be a drain on either the NHS or have to rely on my family to wipe my arse, spoon feed me, or stop me from dribbling, in the event of a head impact brain injury.

Fourth, and it may or not be the case. In the event of an accident which requires a claim against a third party for injuries sustained, I do wonder if the wearing of a helmet might make any claim more valid and worthy.

Making the wearing of helmets compulsory is never going to work, but the making of any insurance claim invalid for persons not wearing one, would seem pretty reasonable and sensible instead.

I certainly wouldn't fit either a camera or light to one though.

 

[flecc]

Then correct helmet choice would mitigate this risk, no?

For me Lardo it's the sheer inconvenience as well as disliking wearing any hat. I'm a utility cycist like the Dutch, using a bike as all round transport as much as anything, and with no sporting bias.

Seventy percent of the Netherlands population cycle for just about all journeys and purposes and almost never wear helmets. They have the world's highest incidence of cycling and the lowest accident rate. It's very simlar in Denkark where a very high proportion also cycle.

Like them, I just hop on and off a bike for many purposes, always in my everyday clothes with no special preparation. It's just an alternative to walking.

My cycling began in the 1940s just after WW2 when almost all of Britain cycled of necessity. There were no safety helmets, they'd never been invented, and that was our cycling for up to 40 years before helmets were widely available.

Likewise there were no on-road practical motorcycling helmets either, so my first 23 years of motorcycling were without a helmet. We knew our vulnerability and most of us acted accordingly, which is why almost all of us are still around now after huge mileages. Meanwhile many of the younger helmeted cyclists and motorcyclists have killed themselves at a rate of over 100 cyclists a year and 400 motocyclists a year, often at very low mileages.

The Roads Research Laboratory know the reason for that discrepancy, I wonder if you can work it out.
.

 

[Gringo]

Beware the liberal fascists - people who aim to 'save' us by controlling everything we do.

Saying that, I put up with a brain bucket 99% of the time and have become use to wearing one.
I'm old & wise enough to make my own choices, mostly my rides aren't planed, there usually over 20 miles and can randomly include wooded trails & bridalways, some times I find myself on a buissy road.
When I know it wil be a quiet ride I go topless.
Oh and I wouldn't wear a seat belt if it wasn't the law.

 

[Lardo]

I've just lost a lengthy response suggesting statistics can be contorted to make any point the wielder would like to make.

Lets just leave it at my objection being that I don't like seeing brain matter and I believe helmets reduce this risk. Some agree, some disagree.
Apologies if I've come off as arrogant at any point, I didn't intend to.

 

[soundwave]

 

[flecc]

I believe helmets reduce this risk.

I agree Lardo, it would be foolish to believe otherwise since any designed protection lessens a risk.

Just for some of us the risk/negatives balance comes down in favour of not wearing.
.

 

[Lardo]

I saw a prototype of that a few years ago but didn't realise they were on sale now. They look less comfortable than a helmet to me but seem very effective.

 

[soundwave]

http://www.hovding.com/how_hovding_works

£250 tho

 

[anotherkiwi]

Then correct helmet choice would mitigate this risk, no?

Higher up in this thread I posted the short list of my choices for a future helmet. Because of the law I have to wear one on many of my rides. You don't get to try before you buy and at 100+ € a pop it is a very complicated decision to make when on a shoestring budget like mine.

Some good things I will say about helmets:

- they (skateboard style) are great protection from the sun
- they are cooler than a cap on hot sunny days, the air flow over the scalp is spot on

This is what I wear at the moment on the colder days

I bet that it offers just as much protection to my old bald head as any cheap bike "helmet" would.

Do you watch the Tour de France much? There you get to see how efficient crumby racing helmets are. Seen all of those broken noses? Seen the number of riders who have died while wearing one?

"It would have been worse without one" - well we can't rerun accidents to verify that theory can we?

 

[JohnCade]

Beware the liberal fascists - people who aim to 'save' us by controlling everything we do.

Saying that, I put up with a brain bucket 99% of the time and have become use to wearing one.
I'm old & wise enough to make my own choices, mostly my rides aren't planed, there usually over 20 miles and can randomly include wooded trails & bridalways, some times I find myself on a buissy road.
When I know it wil be a quiet ride I go topless.
Oh and I wouldn't wear a seat belt if it wasn't the law.

Aren’t you knocking down a straw man there?

No one here has suggested making helmets compulsory and I would oppose that if if was put forward. In fact this thread started as an inoffensive heads up for Aldi helmets and was then derailed by flecc on post three who was riding one of his hobby horses again.

I seems to me that the people who oppose helmets are the most vehement in debates like this one, and that they can’t just accept that it’s a matter of personal choice but insist on rubbishing the whole idea of helmets because they don’t like them personally. Exactly the same happened with the seat belt debate. But seat belts did, as any intellectually honest person now knows, save many lives.

I mostly wear a helmet, but in the summer on slow rides to the coast and such I don’t always. They are useful in winter though, and I can’t see any point in wearing a hat to keep your head warm in winter when a BMX type helmet will do that and give it protection.

So wear helmets if you like, and don’t if you don’t. It doesn’t bother me one way of the other. It’s your head.

 

[flecc]

No one here has suggested making helmets compulsory and I would oppose that if if was put forward. In fact this thread started as an inoffensive heads up for Aldi helmets and was then derailed by flecc on post three who was riding one of his hobby horses again.

Rather more accuracy needed here John, wrong on all points.

Post 3 wasn't me, it was Roadie Roger including a teasing taunt naming me which I naturally answered in post 5. Then in answer to Croxden I posted again in post 7, explaining my entry to the subject was a tease. So I didn't derail anything and without the mention of my name I would never have entered this thread. Our history is full of such thread originating posts on helmet offers with absolutely no entry from me since they don't concern me.

And in post 43 Lardo very definitely did advocate helmets should be compulsory when he posted this:

As much as I value personal choice where it is reasonable, this isn't an area I feel choice should realistically enter I to it.

And that is why I enter these threads on helmets, since I know from experience that while they often pretend they are in favour of choice, the strongly pro brigade usually have this agenda. As someone else remarked, one never sees a post from a non-wearer protesting about the choice of those wearing a helmet, since we are invariably all for free choice. That's all my argument ever is as I make crystal clear each time.
.

 

[Lardo]

Yep, I stand by my belief that they should be compulsory.