Hello and guidance needed

[Bogmonster666]

I was a contributor years ago and forgotten all of my details so new username...

Many years ago I did an ebike conversion. It was a front hub on a Dawes touring bike. It kind of worked but wasn't great. At the time there were not many kit options.

Anyway, that bike is long gone and circumstances have changed. After an illness where I needed to stop driving for a few years, I have not really got back into driving. Whilst I can drive now and have access to a car I would much rather catch the bus or cycle or leach off another driver (usually compensated for with beer in the pub).

Anyway, I'm 11st 7lb, 5'10", moderately fit but never been much of a cyclist. Living in the Mendips, almost any trip involved reasonably big hills.

Was looking for a crank motor bike but considering a hub motor again - rear this time. Main duties would be more local trips shopping (12 miles round trip with a big hill), lugging caving kit about, and occasional commute into Bath (42 miles hilly round trip but can charge at work).

My old bike was throttle only, no sensor, and way twist and go so was easy to be lazy, but also battery often died in way home from commute in the winter with cold and strong winds...

Wondering if the hubs with assistance levels would help here? Of the hub bikes was either looking at a whoosh something or maybe a whoosh kit on my ancient Claud Butler mountain bike...

BM

 

[Benjahmin]

Hi BM,
I cycle the hills of west Wales on a front hub Ezee Mk 2 (similar to a Bafang BPM). Power wise it does the job although needing plenty of work on the steepest bits. I run two batteries in parallel, giving me a total of around 30Ah capacity.
A larger rear hub should suit you fine. You will not get the scrubbing and handling problems of a front hub though practically best to limit the gears to 7, 8 at the most. Otherwise there could be problems dishing the wheel enough to centralise. However, unlike a crank drive, you can keep the front rings (I run 48,38,28) .
Given the hills around Bath, I would go for one of the heavier motors rather than a light weight option. Buy the biggest battery you can afford to aleviate range anxiety. Check the rear dropouts on the Butler. Need to be 140mmish, as you know steel will flex, and capable of taking the 12mm flats of the motor. Generally they are 14mm overall diameter so the dropout needs to be capable of taking the depth or being filed to do so.
Control systems are much better these days and most have cadence sensing pas combined with throttle overide for those tricky hill starts. Lithium batteries are also much better and likely to give you at least 4-5 years.
Some will tell you the hub motors bog down on hills. This has never happened to me. In practice if you can keep the speed at, or above, 7-8mph on hills then heating shouldn't be a problem. There are hills around here where I struggle to get 6mph but still the motor copes (the Ezee's are reknown for torque).
Hope that helps. Woosh are great at advice and customer service, often posting on here.

 

[Waspy]

I have recently converted an older aluminium framed mountain bike. It has an 8 speed cassette at the rear and a single chain ring up front. I only really use the top four gears.

I got a Woosh rear drive kit.

I ordered pedal assist only, so no throttle or brake sensors. I mostly use levels 3 and 4 on pedal assist and save level 5 for very steep hills.

I would imagine that method will use much less battery than throttle only.

Pedal assist is easy if you look ahead and change down a couple of gears as you approach a junction/dog walker etc. just like you would on a normal bike. The pedal assist kicks in very quickly as you start pedalling.

My battery is 13mAh, I have never cycled until it is flat but the battery seems to last forever using it the way I do, but I don't have many big hills here, and I am 2.5 stone heavier than you.

A couple of thoughts about fitting the kit:

I bought a right angle drill attachment for fitting a rivnut to the downtube for the battery cradle. 10 quid from Screwfix.

RJ The Bike Guy on Youtube explains how to do this easily:

I can't recommend the left PAS sensor enough, an absolute doddle to fit, but you may need a longer bottom bracket to make this work but worth doing IMHO. Woosh can advise on this and actually sell (cheap) the size you might need. RJ The Bike Guy has a video for this too:

Fitting the rear wheel takes some patience, I removed the chain and brake caliper (but you don't have to) to make fitting easier. Depending on the width between your dropouts you have to rearrange the washers until you get the fit right. I put the two plain, thick washers inside the dropouts and the two torque washers outside. I still had to pull the chainstays apart a few mm to get the wheel in, that would be much easier if you have a steel frame (and rim brakes).

The cable to the LCD monitor is far too long and I struggled with different methods of cable management. I finally settled on little plastic, office cable tidy clips like these from eBay:

But I ditched the sticky pads and used some clear, thin, 3M double sided tape (from eBay). I attached these to the underside of the downtube and had to double the cable.

Woosh are very helpful and you can email their technician anytime for help and advice.

 

[Bogmonster666]

I was a contributor years ago and forgotten all of my details so new username...

Many years ago I did an ebike conversion. It was a front hub on a Dawes touring bike. It kind of worked but wasn't great. At the time there were not many kit options.

Anyway, that bike is long gone and circumstances have changed. After an illness where I needed to stop driving for a few years, I have not really got back into driving. Whilst I can drive now and have access to a car I would much rather catch the bus or cycle or leach off another driver (usually compensated for with beer in the pub).

Anyway, I'm 11st 7lb, 5'10", moderately fit but never been much of a cyclist. Living in the Mendips, almost any trip involved reasonably big hills.

Was looking for a crank motor bike but considering a hub motor again - rear this time. Main duties would be more local trips shopping (12 miles round trip with a big hill), lugging caving kit about, and occasional commute into Bath (42 miles hilly round trip but can charge at work).

My old bike was throttle only, no sensor, and way twist and go so was easy to be lazy, but also battery often died in way home from commute in the winter with cold and strong winds...

Wondering if the hubs with assistance levels would help here? Of the hub bikes was either looking at a whoosh something or maybe a whoosh kit on my ancient Claud Butler mountain bike...

BM

Hi BM,
I cycle the hills of west Wales on a front hub Ezee Mk 2 (similar to a Bafang BPM). Power wise it does the job although needing plenty of work on the steepest bits. I run two batteries in parallel, giving me a total of around 30Ah capacity.
A larger rear hub should suit you fine. You will not get the scrubbing and handling problems of a front hub though practically best to limit the gears to 7, 8 at the most. Otherwise there could be problems dishing the wheel enough to centralise. However, unlike a crank drive, you can keep the front rings (I run 48,38,28) .
Given the hills around Bath, I would go for one of the heavier motors rather than a light weight option. Buy the biggest battery you can afford to aleviate range anxiety. Check the rear dropouts on the Butler. Need to be 140mmish, as you know steel will flex, and capable of taking the 12mm flats of the motor. Generally they are 14mm overall diameter so the dropout needs to be capable of taking the depth or being filed to do so.
Control systems are much better these days and most have cadence sensing pas combined with throttle overide for those tricky hill starts. Lithium batteries are also much better and likely to give you at least 4-5 years.
Some will tell you the hub motors bog down on hills. This has never happened to me. In practice if you can keep the speed at, or above, 7-8mph on hills then heating shouldn't be a problem. There are hills around here where I struggle to get 6mph but still the motor copes (the Ezee's are reknown for torque).
Hope that helps. Woosh are great at advice and customer service, often posting on here.

Thanks for the reply. Frame is aluminium with 135mm between dropouts. I remember now that I had to file the front dropouts on my old conversion and this wasn't great due to the limited material to start with. Looking at existing bike, the rear derailleur is also around the dropout so this would need filing as well.

I am tending towards a pre built Camino from Whoosh but thinking of getting 15ah version and an extra battery...

It's a 700c bike and that's ok. I'm not so heavy as to be an issue. I think the gran Camino has a meatier motor than the Camino but will check - might just be less torque as bigger diameter.

I think my old conversion had a bafang motor, probably 250w, but it was designed for a 26" wheel and fitted to a 700c rim. I found it had plenty enough grunt to pull me up some big hills.

May just buy the Camino and if range is an issue get an extra battery. Will need to check that spare battery supply will not be a big issue.

The rack on the Whoosh bikes looks a bit meh, not enough side support for decent panniers imo (just bought some 25l Altura panniers in the sale for £23 each instead of £70+). I'm sure I can solve that issue though with a bit of a mod.

BM

 

[Bogmonster666]

I have recently converted an older aluminium framed mountain bike. It has an 8 speed cassette at the rear and a single chain ring up front. I only really use the top four gears.

I got a Woosh rear drive kit.

I ordered pedal assist only, so no throttle or brake sensors. I mostly use levels 3 and 4 on pedal assist and save level 5 for very steep hills.

I would imagine that method will use much less battery than throttle only.

Pedal assist is easy if you look ahead and change down a couple of gears as you approach a junction/dog walker etc. just like you would on a normal bike. The pedal assist kicks in very quickly as you start pedalling.

My battery is 13mAh, I have never cycled until it is flat but the battery seems to last forever using it the way I do, but I don't have many big hills here, and I am 2.5 stone heavier than you.

A couple of thoughts about fitting the kit:

I bought a right angle drill attachment for fitting a rivnut to the downtube for the battery cradle. 10 quid from Screwfix.

RJ The Bike Guy on Youtube explains how to do this easily:

I can't recommend the left PAS sensor enough, an absolute doddle to fit, but you may need a longer bottom bracket to make this work but worth doing IMHO. Woosh can advise on this and actually sell (cheap) the size you might need. RJ The Bike Guy has a video for this too:

Fitting the rear wheel takes some patience, I removed the chain and brake caliper (but you don't have to) to make fitting easier. Depending on the width between your dropouts you have to rearrange the washers until you get the fit right. I put the two plain, thick washers inside the dropouts and the two torque washers outside. I still had to pull the chainstays apart a few mm to get the wheel in, that would be much easier if you have a steel frame (and rim brakes).

The cable to the LCD monitor is far too long and I struggled with different methods of cable management. I finally settled on little plastic, office cable tidy clips like these from eBay:

But I ditched the sticky pads and used some clear, thin, 3M double sided tape (from eBay). I attached these to the underside of the downtube and had to double the cable.

Woosh are very helpful and you can email their technician anytime for help and advice.

Thanks for the reply. I would need to change the BB, that should be ok assuming not too corroded (old bike). The crank arms were easy to remove but I don't yet have BB tool. Dropouts are 135mm and I think I would need to file them out a bit for the axle flats.

Rivnuts should be easy I think.

The bike is old and tatty, plusses and minuses, but not a big target for thieves I think dropping the throttle and the brake sensors makes sense. I can get the bike moving at traffic lights and the like and there is not going to be lots of start/stop I hope.

Still debating kit Vs pre built.

I do expect assistance modes will be more frugal than twist and go. Also I had a motor/controller for 26" wheel in a 700c rim...

BM

 

[Waspy]

You know, if your bike is that old and worn you may as well just go ahead and get a Camino or Grand Camino. I bought an old bike and spent a fair bit improving it (which I really didn't need to do, but that's me) Adding it all altogether what with new tools etc. I probably spent close to what it would cost for a ready-made Woosh bike. I just wanted the challenge of building it myself. Good luck whatever you decide to do.

 

[Bogmonster666]

Having slept on it I an going to buy a kit. Ordered a BB tool so will check that will come out ok before going any further. Will fit a longer BB and make sure front derailleur still works and should be all should plain sailing after that.

My current bike fits my needs well, already got a good rack I can load up, nice and sturdy and rigid and the price is right. No obvious braze-ons for attaching a more suitable rack in the whoosh bikes that I can see - and whilst I could find a way probably almost as much faff as fitting a kit to the bike I already have. My bike has a 7 speed cassette so I think I will need a spacer on the whoosh kit wheels but they cost nothing. Tool cost is minimal and have most of it now. Used to have a proper cordless angle drill but sure I can find something. I want to double check the required battery space including enough room to remove the battery but I believe I am ok. Not bothered about suspension forks. Would like disc brakes but not a deal breaker. The bike will be left in caving huts regularly (low theft risk but high getting knocked about risk). May occasionally be locked up in the arse end of nowhere at various caves so don't want an obvious target. There should always be a convenient car boot to put the battery and my change of clothes in.

Thing with a kit is that I can always move it to another bike if I need to anyway.

Don't want a throttle, just cadence sensor. Already planning to 3d print an additional bracket that wraps around the downtube to support the battery bracket and if I design it with a cavity and a water drain hole, I can hide extra cable in it neatly I think. My last conversion had no plugs or sockets, all soldered together and heat shrink tape.

May end up with 2 batteries, start with a 17ah maybe and if range is an issue then get a 13ah (assume the cradle is the same)? Would be interested to know the length of the battery removed from the cradle, might fit in my rack top bag?

Attached a picture of the bike I took last night after returning from caving and the pub. As you can see, it gets well loaded up and those big panniers need to be hung far back to stop catching ankles on them.

BM

 

[Bogmonster666]

Ok, photo didn't post, maybe too big, trying again...

 

[Waspy]

My bike has a 7 speed cassette

I'm sure you know 7 speed will probably be a freewheel.

I want to double check the required battery space including enough room to remove the battery but I believe I am ok.

During my email conversation with Woosh, prior to purchase, they told me to cut a piece of cardboard 38cm x 10cm and see if that fits in the frame triangle

Would like disc brakes but not a deal breaker.

I notice your bike has cantilever brakes, these can be converted fairly cheaply and easily to V brakes for a better performance. Personally, I don't find much difference between V brakes and mechanical disc brakes.

Thing with a kit is that I can always move it to another bike if I need to anyway.

Good point.

My last conversion had no plugs or sockets, all soldered together and heat shrink tape.

I'm impressed, that is beyond my skills, or tools.

May end up with 2 batteries, start with a 17ah maybe and if range is an issue then get a 13ah (assume the cradle is the same)? Would be interested to know the length of the battery removed from the cradle, might fit in my rack top bag?

I'm pretty sure all HL battery cases and cradles will be the same size. But Woosh can put you right on that one. . I just measured my battery and it is 360mm x 87mm. Plus you need about 20mm wriggle room for getting it on and off.

Ordering from Woosh is not as simple as it seems (in a good way). Placing an order does not mean your kit goes immediately in the post, it is more like an expression of interest LOL. What follows is an email conversation (with pictures) backwards and forwards. This is simply to check you are ordering the right kit and that everything will fit. But they respond quickly and your kit arrives in no time.

 

[sjpt]

I notice your bike has cantilever brakes, these can be converted fairly cheaply and easily to V brakes for a better performance. Personally, I don't find much difference between V brakes and mechanical disc brakes.

I second that comment, we had a bike converted and it was a huge improvement.

I'd taken our 25 year old (non-electric) Giant in for service at the local Bike Hub after doing it myself in the meantime. They happened to have some old but servicable V-brakes hanging around so just did it .

 

[Waspy]

I don't know if these pictures are of any help, but these are my frame measurements with the battery in place.

I think the frame is 19" or 'medium'.

 

[Bogmonster666]

Looks good , the battery will definitely fit in my frame, I'm good to go I think. Andy @ Whoosh confirmed a few things as well.

I have another donnor bike that I can swipe some v brakes and levers off so that should be a free upgrade....

Final decision is if to go for 48v DWG22C motor (back in stock in July which is fine) or the 36v XF08 CST. The DWG22C has much more torque but is heavier. I think my old bike had a front Bafang hub and was 36v 250w so probably fell somewhere in the middle. I never found it lacked muscle getting me up hills so tempted to go for the XF08 CST. Tbh, I think either option would work well enough.

BM

 

[Waspy]

I can't speak for the DWG22, I bought the XF08.

The XF08 gets me up hills easily, it's like I'm now living in the Netherlands where everything is flat!

And I weigh more than two stone than you.

Anyway, good luck with whatever you choose and I'm sure Woosh will give you the right advice.