Heinzmann battery upgrade - help!

[grahampeterm]

Hi there - looking for some help regarding my Heinzmann converted bike. I bought a Heinzmann kit about 5 years ago and successfully converted a Specialised hybrid bike. Time's moved on and the battery pack is losing its performance, taking an age to charge and then discharging even when not connected - time to change? If I remember correctly its a nickel hydride (silver battery pack with 5 led indicator). I use the bike for local transport and rely on the twist throttle - medical condition prevents me from pedal sensors.
The question now is what should I buy to get the bike back into tiptop condition? The latest batteries appear to be lithium? Will I need a new controller as well as battery and charger? The front wheel motor drive is all working fine so just should be retained?
There seems so many options I'm confused and unsure what to do! Hence HELP
Thanks in anticipation
Graham

 

[banbury frank]

Hi Graham

You only need a new battery and charger if you post a photo off the battery you have and where it is mounted we can recommend a battery Also the voltage I presume it is 36 volt below is a link for a battery Your old controller will be OK

36V15Ah Li-Ion Alloy 05-Case EBike Battery Pack - BMSBATTERY

total cost inc duty and vat maximum £350 For battery and charger

Frank

 

[flecc]

Let us know if it's one of the 24 volt Heinzmann kits that you have, there are alternatives for that too.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

We need to know how many amps your controller is too. Some of them are 28 or 32 amps, which cuts down the battery choice.

 

[grahampeterm]

Thanks for the info so far - the battery pack is 36v and the bike motor 200W, not sure of the controller rating; I'll have a good look tomorrow and see if I can post a picky!
The kit was a 'standard' Heinzmann package with the silver cased plastic battery pack mounted on lugs which hook onto the supplied rear carrier. The controller, an ally box was then bolted to the underside of the carrier.
The whole kit has been very good up until recently! Credit to Heinzmann, just battery technology has moved on! The Silver battery block is a real heavy lump!
Graham

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Some of the "200w" kits have 28 amp controllers, which by reckoning makes about 1120w from the battery. Even at 50% efficiency climbing a hill, that still makes 5600w of motive power.

 

[hech]

Some of the "200w" kits have 28 amp controllers, which by reckoning makes about 1120w from the battery. Even at 50% efficiency climbing a hill, that still makes 5600w of motive power.

whats that d8veh? april again eh.

 

[Scimitar]

Some of the "200w" kits have 28 amp controllers, which by reckoning makes about 1120w from the battery. Even at 50% efficiency climbing a hill, that still makes 5600w of motive power.

Bloody'ell, I must get one of them.

 

[easycommuter]

Let us know if it's one of the 24 volt Heinzmann kits that you have, there are alternatives for that too.

Hi Flecc
I do have a 24v Heinzmann motor and have been resigned to not being able to replace the old battery. Could you point me in the right direction? Thanks.

 

[flecc]

Hi Flecc
I do have a 24v Heinzmann motor and have been resigned to not being able to replace the old battery. Could you point me in the right direction? Thanks.

There isn't much choice that I know of for your Heinzmann, due to the high discharge necessary as d8veh has observed. Some otherwise attractive options just can't deliver enough, but one supplier, Li Ping, is well known to be reliable and supplies suitable lithium batteries. You'll need at least the 15 Ah one, and the 20 Ah would be even better. Neither will fit into your existing mounting, usually only original Heinzmann batteries will do that, so you'd have to adapt the carrier to suit and arrange connections to your existing controller. I don't know which version you have, some Heinzmann controllers are incorporated into the carrier battery mounting. Importing direct sometimes attracts additional charges for duty, VAT etc, and you'll need to order the charger to suit at the same time:

Li Ping 24 volt batteries for e-bikes

If you want an original Heinzmann battery to fit, you can contact the Electric Transport Shop who can supply spares for Heinzmann.

Though I don't personally have experience of them, some members have used BMS battery successfully, who supply suitable batteries. The top one on this link may even fit within your carrier mounting. You can check the dimensions against those of your rack on this further link. A suitable charger is included in the price.

Other members may know of alternative suppliers of suitable 24 volt batteries.
.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

There's more info here. If you scroll down to the motors, you'll see that the "200w" ones are 25, 28 and 33 amps, so it's important to know what's written on your controller. BTW, both the 25 amp and 28 versions are certified legal!

ElectricMountainBikes.com: Heinzmann conversion kit

A suitable battery from China will be about £250 to £300. You'll probably have to make an enclosure for it.

 

[jhruk]

Hi Flecc
I do have a 24v Heinzmann motor and have been resigned to not being able to replace the old battery. Could you point me in the right direction? Thanks.

Do you have one of the old 24v NiCd Heinzmann systems with the controller built into the battery box like this ?

I have one of these and the battery is down to about half power - not bad considering it’s thirteen year old. Although I hardly ever use it now I have given some thought to battery replacement.

Replacement NiCd packs are available on ebay from Germany here, not sure of carriage costs to uk.

Replacement with other types is not straightforward due to the constraints of the existing battery box, although one could remount the controller in a smaller box and use a separate battery.

My current thoughts are to retain the existing box and use 4s1p RC Lipos, something like these. Four, in 2s2p, would give 29v 10Ah and should meet the high current requirement, as well as making the bike slightly faster, and lighter. The box should actually accommodate up to eight, giving 20Ah, which would be nearly three times the old 7Ah NiCd capacity.
The main disadvantage would be more complicated charging, which would probably require a new multipin skt on the box and an RC charger.

[FONT=&amp]Another thing to bear in mind is that the [/FONT][FONT=&amp]Heinzmann [/FONT][FONT=&amp]controller uses a 12v centre tap from the battery pack to check for imbalance. This is easily accommodated using the RC packs but would require some mods if using a single lithium pack.[/FONT]

 

[flecc]

[FONT=&amp]Another thing to bear in mind is that the [/FONT][FONT=&amp]Heinzmann [/FONT][FONT=&amp]controller uses a 12v centre tap from the battery pack to check for imbalance. This is easily accommodated using the RC packs but would require some mods if using a single lithium pack.[/FONT]

Good point, a true centre tap would not be possible with a lithium pack, these use 7 series cells of 25.9 volts nominal total. I'm not sure how the controller would react to a 3 to 4 cell take-off point of 11.1 and 14.4 volts nominal either side, since fully charged those could be 12.3 and 16.4 volts, quite an imbalance.

 

[jhruk]

Good point, a true centre tap would not be possible with a lithium pack, these use 7 series cells of 25.9 volts nominal total. I'm not sure how the controller would react to a 3 to 4 cell take-off point of 11.1 and 14.4 volts nominal either side, since fully charged those could be 12.3 and 16.4 volts, quite an imbalance.

Yes, I’m not sure exactly how this works in the controller - perhaps it could be disabled or fooled in some way.

Another point I forgot if using RC lipo, without a BMS, is that they would need some sort of low voltage protection, as there is none in the existing controller, designed for NiCd.

 

[flecc]

Yes, I’m not sure exactly how this works in the controller - perhaps it could be disabled or fooled in some way.

Another point I forgot if using RC lipo, without a BMS, is that they would need some sort of low voltage protection, as there is none in the existing controller, designed for NiCd.

There must be solutions, Heinzmann use lithium batteries now, but since the current nominally 24 volt kit uses a completely separate controller, it may be necessary to buy one of those as well

Given these problems, getting replacements from a Heinzmann supplier may be the best option for many to avoid potential problems.

 

[jhruk]

There must be solutions, Heinzmann use lithium batteries now, but since the current nominally 24 volt kit uses a completely separate controller, it may be necessary to buy one of those as well

Given these problems, getting replacements from a Heinzmann supplier may be the best option for many to avoid potential problems.

I see this company on German ebay offer various re-celling options for Heinzmann batteries. They will even install 24v LiFePo4 in your existing box if you send it to them, choice of 10Ah for €349.00 or 12Ah for €379.00 + €5.70 carriage. Includes a charger and connector.

Quite expensive but would save a lot of fiddling around and should last quite well.

 

[flecc]

I see this company on German ebay offer various re-celling options for Heinzmann batteries. They will even install 24v LiFePo4 in your existing box if you send it to them, choice of 10Ah for €349.00 or 12Ah for €379.00 + €5.70 carriage. Includes a charger and connector.

Quite expensive but would save a lot of fiddling around and should last quite well.

Looks like the best option, given the similar prices elsewhere.

 

[easycommuter]

Thanks for the extremely comprehensive replies about the 24v Heinzmann battery

jhruk that is exactly the battery box I have. The charger is 24v & 7.0Amps



My battery is in a similar condition you yours, again after roughly more than 10 years.
I read in a thread a while back, I think by yourself flecc, that NiCd was hard to beat in terms of durability,
the only trouble was that they are also extremely toxic. I was very surprised to see them still on ebay sale 199Euro (£167 approx) + P&P, and then saw it was on an exchange basis (a good service).

I enjoy reading about the different battery technologies and possibilities but my limited knowledge (Centre Taps etc) would mean that a replacement (or even a Lithium £320 approx upgrade) is my best bet and definitely my say safest bet, if I go for this route. Until now I had just been looking at what new kit options (even bikes) were available, and hadn't even thought of replacing, the battery.

Thanks again.

 

[passpato]

The older Heinzmannn controller has a half voltage wire to monitor battery condition. You would have to disable this curcuit. There was a schematic on the kinetics blog showing how to do this. The best batteries are Ping and the alternative controller is a 4qd uni 8 matched to your voltage.The uni 4 will do it but it may get hot.