Haibike Xduro Trekking SL 2013 Review

[o00scorpion00o]

I got this last Summer on E-bay, The build quality of the Haibike is fantastic.

I've about 600 miles on it with no faults.

It is rather heavy, the front shocks ,dynamo and Sram DD3 do add to the weight, and I'm not convinced the front shocks are actually effective.

The Dual Drive 3 hub while eliminates the front 2 chain rings which are more efficient, the DD 3 adds drag which is noticeable, however eco mode eliminates this but I rather pedal as much as possible and use the motor only when needed.

The performance of the motor is good, not nearly as good as some of the DIY hub motors I installed on my old bike but they were pulling 2-5kw from the battery ! but it was fun.

It does climb like a billy goat, I've taken it up 20-23% maybe more, granted at that grade of hill I need to pedal very hard but it means being able to do it compared to not, without the motor so the Bosch will get you up anything you're likely to climb.

Hub motors with their fixed gearing will not nearly be able to climb what the Bosch can simply because the Hub motor is a fixed singer speed, where the Bosch can use the bike gearing, greatly increasing the ability to climb. The hub motor will slow down and stall on steep enough climbs and all that power turn to heat. The Bosch will be far more efficient climbing because it's always spinning where it's most efficient. The Hub motor will climb the same 20-23% with much more power and may even burn by the time it gets to the top where the Bosch motor to feel was not warm at all at the top of that climb !

The Bosch which is actually a 500 watt -700 peak motor (not 250) gets around the ridiculous E.U 250 watt limit I bet by clever use of programming of the controller, the Bosch ramps up power slowly which might make the difference. It gradually reduces power after 15 mph to nothing after 17 mph, after that you're on your own.

I thought I would miss the throttle like on my old bike but When I tested the bike in Germany I was immediately impressed with the smoothness of power delivery and the matching of power to my cadence perfectly.

I also tested a Raleigh with Bosch motor in Germany over 40 miles and noticed it is more efficient to pedal without motor assistance because of the lack of Dual Drive III. Which proved to me without doubt that the DD III is not very pedal efficient. However the Haibike with DD III would be able to climb much steeper hills having the extra gearing compared to the Raleigh, but the Raleigh was able to climb pretty steep hills 16% with ease, but at the expense of reduced top speed, but I did find it nicer to pedal unassisted.

The DD III shifts brilliantly under full load but you need to back off the power a bit to change back down, I could see the attraction to the NuVinci automatic hub, but would bet it's even harder to pedal unassisted ?

I wish they had used 3 chain rings as normal.

I suppose Haibike never imagined someone peddling the bike without assistance and thought no one would notice it, but mostly I bet they themselves didn't notice it.

Haibike now have a road bike with carbon wheels weighing about 18.9 kg compared to 27 for my trekking bike ! I would hate to see the price.

Battery wise, well, I pedal as much as I can mostly, I do use the motor for hills, and so can get pretty good mileage from the battery, I estimate 70 odd miles give or take with good size hills and peddling on the level with no assistance,if using max power all the time maybe 20-30 miles with some hills.

I only ever charge to 80% and charge again when I get to 40%. this still gives me much more range than I would need in a day.

Only charge your battery to 80% if you don't need the full range, and do not store the battery at 100% ever as this is bad for lithium batteries, the ideal charge to store these batteries is 60%. Especially when the riding season is over.

When I come home and if the battery is below 60% I charge back to 60% and leave it there until just 2 hours before I go for a cycle, which I then charge to 80%.

Overall I am very happy with the Haibike, I do wish it was lighter and easier to pedal unassisted, but the smoothness of power and the ability to climb pretty much anything makes this really a wonderful bike.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Hub motors with their fixed gearing will not nearly be able to climb what the Bosch can simply because the Hub motor is a fixed singer speed, where the Bosch can use the bike gearing, greatly increasing the ability......

You can't make sweeping statements like that. Not all hub-motors are single speed, and what's more there are single speed ones that can climb very steep hills as efficiently as the Bosch, if not more so. The Bosch system is not particularly efficient when pedalling slowly. It's designed to be efficient at normal pedalling speed. You can't have both. A hub motor's efficiency is independent of pedalling speed.

 

[o00scorpion00o]

You can't make sweeping statements like that. Not all hub-motors are single speed, and what's more there are single speed ones that can climb very steep hills as efficiently as the Bosch, if not more so. The Bosch system is not particularly efficient when pedalling slowly. It's designed to be efficient at normal pedalling speed. You can't have both. A hub motor's efficiency is independent of pedalling speed.

Sure in a 16-20 inch wheel a 10-12T mac for instance might climb just as well on 500 watts. I doubt in a 26 and not in a 28" like on the Haibike.

A geared hub like the mac is fine for most people if you got moderate hills, it will do just fine, but if you got slow very steep hills or trails the Bosch will be better and more efficient.

The motor simulator on ebikes.ca suggests the mac torque motor will overheat in 5 mins with a 20 amp controller on 36 volts pulling 740 watts going up a 20% grade at 2 mph, though that is without peddling.

The Bosch will do it without over heating faster, though obviously with hard peddling.

The are other motors but big heavy scooter motors in a bicycle rim.

Give a big enough Hub motor in a small enough wheel with enough power then sure it will climb pretty much anything.

The idea though about the Bosch is for assistance not motor bike or scooter alternative.

I've had a mac 8T on 60 volts and 50 amps and it's real fun and a top speed of 40 mph, I do miss this set up but I prefer the Bosch because I love to pedal and love it's smoothness and not having to use a throttle.

I've had a Gm Magic Pie II at the same power and while it made the climb the Bosch did 20-23% it was cooking and stinking in the car the way home. The Bosch did it with much less power, 500 watts V 3 kw and was cool, the Pie was bogging down too much even with peddling.

Mid drives can also be better because you don't need to modify the rear drop outs.

 

[RobF]

Scorp,

Don't worry about d8, he just doesn't like Bosch bikes.

 

[SRS]

Scorp,

Don't worry about d8, he just doesn't like Bosch bikes.

He does really, just won't say so.

 

[o00scorpion00o]

I've seen d8veh give the Bosch good reviews before and on the sphere !

BTW the site has changes since I was here before , there used to be a section for Bosch drives, Panasonic etc, what happened ?

I have not posted much since registering some time ago.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Scorp,

Don't worry about d8, he just doesn't like Bosch bikes.

That's totally wrong. I think that the Bosch System is a masterpiece of engineering. It's not suited to my tired old legs, but l still like it.

What I don't like is all the false statements about it's (and other crank drives') capability and this misconception that crank-drives are more efficient than hub-motors. In theory a crank-drive can be more efficient, but every trial that I've done shows that it isn't.

You have to pedal harder on many of the torque sensor systems without throttle, especially when climbing'which can give the impression that the motor is doing more than it actually is.

Many of views and reputations about motors are out of date. Hub-motors don't have to be like the under-powered slugs of four years ago and many people that make statements about the superior abilities of a Bosch motor have never tried a Woosh Big Bear or a Kudos Tornado, and I bet none of them have tried the two-speed Xiongda motor.

I preticted a while ago that the fashion for crank motors will wane in a couple of years ago just like I predicted the demise of Panasonic crank motors. We'll see if I'm right.

 

[RobF]

That's totally wrong. I think that the Bosch System is a masterpiece of engineering. It's not suited to my tired old legs, but l still like it.

What I don't like is all the false statements about it's (and other crank drives') capability and this misconception that crank-drives are more efficient than hub-motors. In theory a crank-drive can be more efficient, but every trial that I've done shows that it isn't.

You have to pedal harder on many of the torque sensor systems without throttle, especially when climbing'which can give the impression that the motor is doing more than it actually is.

Many of views and reputations about motors are out of date. Hub-motors don't have to be like the under-powered slugs of four years ago and many people that make statements about the superior abilities of a Bosch motor have never tried a Woosh Big Bear or a Kudos Tornado, and I bet none of them have tried the two-speed Xiongda motor.

I preticted a while ago that the fashion for crank motors will wane in a couple of years ago just like I predicted the demise of Panasonic crank motors. We'll see if I'm right.

Seems we agree.

I've posted a few times about the Bosch system on the Rose being no mountain goat, although the extra 50 per cent assistance on the AVE makes a difference, among other things.

You've posted a few times about your 500w ebike being faster and more powerful than a Bosch - I don't doubt that for a second.

If I was starting all over, I would be very tempted by such a device.

But being a quite a bit heavier than my doctor would like, I worry about spokes breaking on hub bikes.

I also like the neatness of Bosch installations, and the system's fairly good rendition of proper cycling.

No throttle and having to spin the pedals to get the most out of the motor is a weakness in some respects, as you've pointed out.

But for someone like me who the lacks self-discipline not to use a throttle, the Bosch system helps my aim of getting a little bit fitter.

 

[o00scorpion00o]

I would say the Bosch is a mountain goat, I wouldn't consider 20-23% grades small hills !

Granted, it required considerable pedalling to get up but it did it, you wouldn't do it without the motor at all. And it was hardly even warm to the touch, I'm sure the motor itself was warm but the casing was cool.

The magic Pie under 3kw struggled with considerable power turning to heat and it's no small motor, it was roasting at the top and at the peak it almost stalled, it was never right after, and it stank in the back of the car on the way home. A geared hub like the mac 500W, even the upgraded 1kw version would struggle, I didn't take the mac up because I know it would have burned, though that being said it was an 8T, a 12 T could have got up slowly perhaps but it would have needed more power, though the motor simulator on e-bikes .ca says the mac torque motor will burn after 4 mins on a 20% grade pulling 700 watts from the battery.

I can't see a smaller motor like the Xiongda being able to do that kind of a climb on 500 watts and a much smaller motor than the magic pie, and smaller than the mac.

Depends on your needs, the cost ratio of the hub motors makes them most likely the top choice, certainly the mac 8T at 3kw game me so much fun and was actually easier to pedal unassisted, however, the Raleigh bike with Bosch motor without Sram DD 3 hub was easier to cycle too unassisted.

The Bosch is remarkable to ride in the sense it's power delivery is so smooth and feels like a normal bike to ride (apart from the weight)

One advantage of mid drives such as the Bafang BBS02 is the ability to mount them on carbon road bikes, something you can't easily do with hubs.

I'm sure there are more powerful mid drives now than the Bosch, but for anyone who loves to cycle the Bosch is more than powerful enough for anything you're likely to encounter.

If you want more power then the Conway E-rider might be better. But higher maintenance.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

I can't see a smaller motor like the Xiongda being able to do that kind of a climb on 500 watts and a much smaller motor than the magic pie, and smaller than the mac.

Then you need to look a bit harder. It can drag my 100kg plus a heavy steel Tesco bike up a 14% hill without even pedalling, and quite fast too with only 15 amps and 44v.

 

[EddiePJ]

I agree with Dave.

Owning both a BH NEO Xtrem and Haibike xduro Cross, on the 'road' hills that I climb, the BH trounces the Bosch motor that's fitted to my Haibike.

I don't currently have the results to hand, but by using Strava on set routes, the BH is both faster at hill climbing, and is also less tiring.
I'll try and set up some direct comparisons over the next few weeks, and post up the results.

The comparisons will take in the following hills.


Road.
Ditchling Beacon 531ft 1560 yds ave 12% max 14%
Cob Lane, Ardingly 134ft 390 yds ave 12% max 19%
West Hill, Ardingly 156ft 600yds ave 9% max 15%
Kidds Hill, C'mans Htch 460ft 2200yds ave 7% max 14%

MTB (off road)
Mill Hill (Rodmell) 211ft 740yds ave 10% max 23% (this one has me puffing on the BH, and the 23% is the standing start at the bottom)
Windover Hill (Alfriston) 602ft 2530yds ave 8% max 16%
Willingdon Hill (Jevington) 423ft 1720yds ave 8% max 16%


For me, the only advantage that the Bosch motor has over the BH's hub drive is battery duration and charge time.

 

[RobF]

Eddie,

Do you know if your bike has the max 200 per cent assist hub gear Bosch motor or the max 250 per cent assist derailleur gear one?

Hopefully not a daft question because I believe Eddie's bike has the SRAM dual drive hub/derailleur gear combination.

Just realised, looking at the rear pic, the same question could be asked of the OP.

 

[EddiePJ]

Hi Rob, being thick here, I don't know.

The full spec for the bike can be found here though. http://www.haibike.de/produkte_detail_en,,13084,detail.html

I also perhaps haven't worded my first post too well, as my statement is being taken from my use of both bikes, and it could be just that my level of fitness isn't high enough for the Bosch motor.

One aspect of both Haibikes that I am in agreement with though, is the the front forks are needlessly heavy. Mine seem to work well enough though. I have already looked into options to change the forks, but with such short travel and 700c wheels, there isn't much to choose from.

 

[RobF]

There's no external difference between 200 per cent and 250 per cent motors, so it's going to be hard to check for certain.

I think if you rode both, you would notice the difference.

My 250 per cent AVE is noticeably perkier than the 200 per cent Rose on full assist, although the small wheels will have an impact.

 

[SRS]

I agree with Dave.


For me, the only advantage that the Bosch motor has over the BH's hub drive is battery duration and charge time.

Eddie, one of the things that attracted me to the bosch system was the need to work harder than some hub drives. In particular, fairly high speed spinning on steep hills.

Each system has its merits depending on user requirements. Both are great but i'll stick with the Bosch all the while I can.

 

[o00scorpion00o]

Then you need to look a bit harder. It can drag my 100kg plus a heavy steel Tesco bike up a 14% hill without even pedalling, and quite fast too with only 15 amps and 44v.

14% isn't that steep a climb, I'm pretty sure most hubs 500 watts and over can do that for a while as long as the rpm's stay high enough.

The Bosch can't do it on it's own simply because it's designed not to move unless there is pedal input. The Bosch is also designed to make you put in effort, but in urbo mode I find it pretty powerful.

On level ground then I've no doubt a direct drive hub will be most efficient, followed by a geared hub. But for the steepest of stuff the bottom bracket is king. The centre weight would also be better for down hill mountain bikers.

It's the slow steepest of trails that the Bosch will climb more than all hubs of equivalent power. I'd like to see a geared hub survive a 20+ % grade for more than 10-20 mins or without doing permanent long term damage to the magnets from over heating when a magic pie II was roasting and practically stalling at 3 kw at that climb. No way a 500 watt motor will do it. I wouldn't even have considered running an 8T mac up, but perhaps a 12T at 800 watts could do it, but for how long ? the motor simulator suggests it will overheat after 4 mins @ 750 watts doing just 4 mph on a 20% grade.

I will admit though the geared hub such as a mac 8T would be suitable for the majority of road use, I had it up a 10-15% grade on 48 volts 40 amps pulling 2kw for a few miles, but it was hard on the motor I don't think it would survive that many times, so a 12T would most likely be much more suitable but still heat up.

 

[o00scorpion00o]

I agree with Dave.

Owning both a BH NEO Xtrem and Haibike xduro Cross, on the 'road' hills that I climb, the BH trounces the Bosch motor that's fitted to my Haibike.

I don't currently have the results to hand, but by using Strava on set routes, the BH is both faster at hill climbing, and is also less tiring.
I'll try and set up some direct comparisons over the next few weeks, and post up the results.

The comparisons will take in the following hills.


For me, the only advantage that the Bosch motor has over the BH's hub drive is battery duration and charge time.

I looked up the neo xtrem,

That is a pretty hefty motor similar to a Mac, how many watts being used ? you can be sure was more than the Bosch, and with a top speed of 20 mph.

I can not believe this motor can climb 23% considering a magic pie motor @ 3kw was practically stalling at 3kw. That's a pretty big motor.

You can bet the peak draw of the BH Neo was more than the Bosch.

 

[o00scorpion00o]

You do have to be in the correct gear for the Bosch to be efficient and for it to pull hard on the steepest of stuff, it will mean peddling fast which may not actually suit the cadence for some people and perhaps this is the difference ? with my bad knees I find a faster cadence suits me best.

 

[EddiePJ]

Oddly I mentioned the BH power to Rob a couple of days ago. I'm not convinced that the bike is putting out the correct power. I've never noticed any difference in power modes, and just leave it in ECO. It seems to go just too well! The shop where I bought it from have just invested a hell of a lot of money on some BH test/tuning programming equipment, and they have offered to look at the settings, and adjust them to whatever I fancy. I'd be interested to know exactly how the motor is performing, but I'm not fussed about altering anything.
In respect of the 23% gradiant, my bike is running completely non standard gearing, as all the OE equipment was binned in favour of a Deore 38/24t chainset and Shimano HG62 10 speed cassette 11-36 further details here. http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/the-neo-xtrem-has-reached-its-limit.17296/ On steep off road stuff, the front end lifts off the ground before the motor even gets a chance to think of struggling.
The bike certainly eats the battery though, which is the complete opposite of the Bosch motor. Even in turbo mode it seems to just go on and on.
You haven't been the first to mention cadence, and this is something that I'll have to investigate further.
If nothing else, it'll be interesting to play around experimenting.

 

[RobF]

On steep off road stuff, the front end lifts off the ground before the motor even gets a chance to think of struggling.

I wonder if that's partly a consequence of your lightened front end due to the better quality forks.

Equally, I'm sure the only reason your bike - and my Rose - are fitted with cheap and relatively heavy suspension forks is because they are cheap.

This topic cropped up in conversation with a couple of keen hybrid cyclists the other day.

They had tried Sutton Bank in Yorkshire on a group ride.

Most ended up walking part of it, a couple had the power to continue but had to stop because they couldn't keep the front end of the bike down.

One rider managed to make the climb because he had the bike handling skills to deploy power and at the same time keep his weight well forward.