Haibike sDuro HardSeven SL 2015 Yamaha (7 Month 1600 Miles)

[AndyBike]

Question -
Hell of a thread incidentally. It's good to see a constant update.

Q is. What size of battery is it you have and what have you found to be the maximum range ?, I'd expect at some point you've discovered what that really is in the real world, and not the made up unrealistic figures of the manufacturer.
Actually a 2nd question.
What are your thoughts on charging and draining of the battery. I've heard these(Li-ion) batteries dont like to be fully charged and it is best to only charge them to 90% or so, and also not to drain them completely.
I've li-ion power tools(pro stuff) and was warned not to fully drain them before charging.
Im on the point of finally getting one of these Ebikes - either a Focus Jam 6.8(Testing tomorrow) or a Cube stereo hybrid 120 Race 625 allroad (as a 2nd choice)

 

[georgehenry]

It would be frustrating for me to reply to your question about battery range with, depends, but there is always an element of depends when talking about range.

Interestingly as I use my Haibike to commute to work and back I have very rarely depleted the battery close to empty.

The fact that I have used this bike almost entirely to commute could be a factor in the 400Wh battery lasting so well.

Basically I charge my battery to full or close to full before setting off to work. My ride to work is around 14 miles and the majority of this is off road.

So going to work I use my lowest assist level of the three I have (I wish I had the lower eco plus assist level on my bike, but that came out on the following years bike). I also switch the assist off for quite a few sections where the gradient allows. My Yamaha system has a full size chain ring and seems to add no resistance when ridden with the assist off. So I find ridden in this way at the moment in the summer I use consistently + or - the odd percentage, 26% to 30% of my 400Wh batteries capacity, riding 14 miles to work.

I have two main routes I use and one of them involves more climbing and because of this uses a bit more battery.

So crunching the maths, If I carried on riding with the same power usage as I do riding to work on my most efficient route in respect of my battery, my bike would theoretically be able to power me 53.8 miles before the battery ran out. On the steeper route the range drops to 46,6 miles.

However I am pretty sure it would not. The ability of my battery at least is stronger in the top half of its capacity, and diminishes more quickly once under 50%. The way the resiliance of my battery diminishes as you dip under 50% remaining could also be due to its degradation as it ages.

So when I get to work I charge my battery back up to full. As I have only used roughly a quarter of its capacity this probably does not take that long. So my battery is left connected to its switched on charger for I guess around 6 hours before I finish work and retrieve it for my ride home. I mention this as it probably means that the battery management system of my Yamaha system is a good one and the charger completely switches itself off once the full charge of the battery and any balancing required has been accomplished.

Then I ride it home, starting with a full battery. Going home I ride on an undulating B road, and want to get home as quickly as possible, although I still ride in a way that is as kind as possible to the battery.

I still use a lot of eco, but also my middle higher assistance level to maintain speed up and over the steeper hills. The other night I used 41% of my 400Wh battery to travel 10 miles in 29 minutes. So used like this, using more of my batteries power to travel more quickly, again crunching the maths, my battery would run out at 24.4 miles. And if what I suspect is true, that the bottom half of my batteries capacity is less resilient than the top half, it might run out several miles sooner, perhaps at not much more than 20 miles. Remember my battery is 6 years and 4 months old, and has powered me 13,964 miles as of my return from work last night.

All the figures above would be less in the Winter.

Another important factor to consider is how much total weight, rider and luggage you are carrying, and how much input (fitness) you as a rider can add to help the motor.

In my case I am over 100kg and carry about 5Kg in two panniers.

My golden rules in respect of my battery are.

Charge it to full as close to when you are going to use it as possible.

Remove your battery after your ride and store it in the house.

Store your battery somewhere in the 50% to 75% range.

I store my battery after I get home from work when it is showing a remaining capacity of around 60% now in the summer, and as low as 50% in the winter.

And that's about it. So its quite simple really. Is my battery better than the norm or is the way I use it a factor in its longevity. I don'y really know.

Another thing I here said, is regularly using your battery is a good thing, though my battery has been left unused for up to 6 weeks with seemingly no ill effect.

Hope this helps.

 

[Nealh]

Not charging fully runs the risk of cell imbalance as the balance function is bypassed, once they become unbalanced on closed system bikes you are then looking at a new battery as dealers can't open them.

 

[georgehenry]

Hi Nealh, that is an interesting observation that I had not considered and a good one to be aware of.

So I had thought charging my battery to almost full before heading off to work was actually Ok bearing in mind the battery always gets charged back to full at work including the balancing phase, but from what you say it would be better to charge to full every time you use the bike so that the cells stay balanced in the long run.

I would point out to anyone reading this post that Nealh has a great deal of technical experience and know how with ebike batteries that I do not. My observations are simply from the point of view of a user of the technology.

 

[sjpt]

Not charging fully runs the risk of cell imbalance as the balance function is bypassed, once they become unbalanced on closed system bikes you are then looking at a new battery as dealers can't open them.

Similar comment to georgehenry's above. I have read it is important to do a full charge fairly regularly (?at least once a month?) for balance reasons, but that doing so regularly would slightly reduce battery life. Despite that we always charge to full because it is so much more convenient, especially as it is pretty unpredictable when we might want to do a longer ride. But Nealh certainly known much more than I do on that.

 

[georgehenry]

Ending of an Era



Late on Tuesday the 12th of October I rode back from work for the last time, so my electrically assisted commuting to work and back days have finally come to an end.



It nearly did not happen as I needed to replace the tyre on the back as it was time to change the tubeless sealant and the tyre was worn out. But it got done in the morning, and I had a great ride to work cross country of 14 miles on my new back tyre and a 10 mile ride home.



My last set of working days were late shifts, with a potential six in a row, but that did not happen. My first day of work on Friday the 8th of October was spent on call at home. Saturday I worked and enjoyed a 12 mile cross country ride to work and usual 10 mile ride home. This was bedding in a newly installed transmission, the whole lot changed with new Chain, Chain ring, Cassette, and jockey wheels and the very oily rear mech removed and de greased. It felt very nice. The old cassette had lasted 1,868 miles with the help of a new chain and 12 tooth top gear cog swapped over at 700 miles when the chain reached its wear limit.



Sunday the 10th of October was a paid day of work but I was rostered to study some of my required knowledge to do my job and with two days to go I did not need to do this so it was really a day off.



Monday was quite an early start for a late shift job and entailed riding away from my house at 10:30 in the morning. A 14 mile cross country ride in lovely weather and normal 10 mile ride home. I should have taken my hurried pictures on that day but did it instead on my last day.



The last day on Tuesday was a late starting shift and I rode away from my house at 3:00PM.

I have been suffering for sometime with tennis elbow in my right arm. I guess in my case this has been caused by a combination of my age meaning I have lost some of the strength and muscle definition in my arms combined with some repetitive strain in my right hand and riding my bike cross country.

Anyway, probably because it is called tennis elbow I had not taken it as seriously as I should. Anyway after that last ride I am now seriously effected, struggled through my last day and have started doing the exercises I found online that are supposed to help.

It had been grumbling for some time but ignoring it was a bit stupid. What seemed to make it a lot worse was those occasions on my ride when I needed to lift the front wheel over small fallen tree trunks/thicker branches across the tracks I ride.

There are four of these where if you approach with the right speed/momentum, not too fast but not too slow, pull up the front wheel to land it either just the other side of the obstacle or on the downward slope of it, using a combination of pedal pressure and weight distribution and speed to then shift your weight forward as your front wheel lands on either the other side or the downward slope of the obstacle to allow the rear wheel to follow.

Anyway getting the front wheel off the ground can be done with very little effort if you use the correct technique but equally can put some strain on your arms if not done badly. And it was one of these done badly that really effected my tennis elbow.

On an off road motorbike you can apply the front brake to dip the front forks just before the obstacle to lift the front wheel as the front fork un weights by again shifting your weight distribution and application of the right amount of power.

The ride was great but the injury at a whole new level!

So I have started retirement with a crippled right elbow and right hand. Great.

Those three rides added another 70 miles to my total.

So after starting to use The Yamaha Haibike in March 2015 to ride to work, cross country there and on the road home I have ended up with a total mileage of 14,312. Apart from worn out parts (Lots) I have used the bike as I bought her for £1750 in March 2015, but was lucky to get a new motor under warranty and be able repair the battery leads when they broke.

I have been genuinely impressed by it as parts of my off road route to work are properly rough and demanding single track as well as the more mundane tracks, so it has had to cope with a lot of punishment.

I will find some use for her I am sure in retirement. Having just changed the transmission I will probably use her just as she is, but for the more challenging off road tracks I have available to me in my area will probably need to lower the gearing.

The cheapest way would be to change my 42 tooth chain ring for a 38 tooth one and swap the two top gear cogs on my rear cassette that are currently 14 and 12 tooth cogs for 13 and 11 tooth ones, to retain some ability to travel faster on the road when required.

 

[Nealh]

That was a nice scenic off road route GH, no reason not to keep riding the route (or part of) and finding another round robin route to home for general riding. Though you likely also have other routes as well.

 

[georgehenry]

The routes great, and to keep active I will probably head to Farnham to do a bit of shopping and then ride home again, however I don't think I will be able to charge the battery as I do at work and that journey is probably at the maximum of the range of the bike if I ride cross country there and back as it would be pushing up to 30 miles. Lots of fun, with some careful battery management.

 

[Deleted member 16246]

The routes great, and to keep active I will probably head to Farnham to do a bit of shopping and then ride home again, however I don't think I will be able to charge the battery as I do at work and that journey is probably at the maximum of the range of the bike if I ride cross country there and back as it would be pushing up to 30 miles. Lots of fun, with some careful battery management.

Enjoy your retirement!

Just to save me reading the entire thread (cheeky I know) what was the cause of the motor failure you experienced, and at what mileage?

I have a bafang crank drive motor - really at the start of its life (only 800 miles so far). It runs completely silently, unlike my partner's bafang rear hub motor. If it goes as far as yours has without trouble, I'll be VERY pleased with it.

 

[georgehenry]

Hi Tony1951,

Play developed in the bearings. I am sure this was caused by water ingress, and also pretty sure that this was in turn caused by me washing the bike rather than riding it.

Luckily for me it happened just as my two year warranty was ending and my bike shop replaced it free of charge. That first motor had been ridden 6,000 when it was replaced.

It still worked fine, but when I pushed and pulled on the pedal arms there was too much play. Neadless to say I have been careful to keep water away as much as possible from the bearings of the second motor that is over 8.000 miles now. I check the play on the bearings of the second motor from time to time by flexing the pedal arms and they are still good at the moment.

On a recent ride home in torrential rain I was forced through a deep puddle by an oncoming car not slowing down to allow me to ride round it. I have woried a bit following that as I hit the water around 20mph.

 

[Deleted member 16246]

Hi Tony1951,

Play developed in the bearings. I am sure this was caused by water ingress, and also pretty sure that this was in turn caused by me washing the bike rather than riding it.

Luckily for me it happened just as my two year warranty was ending and my bike shop replaced it free of charge. That first motor had been ridden 6,000 when it was replaced.

It still worked fine, but when I pushed and pulled on the pedal arms there was too much play. Neadless to say I have been careful to keep water away as much as possible from the bearings of the second motor that is over 8.000 miles now. I check the play on the bearings of the second motor from time to time by flexing the pedal arms and they are still good at the moment.

On a recent ride home in torrential rain I was forced through a deep puddle by an oncoming car not slowing down to allow me to ride round it. I have woried a bit following that as I hit the water around 20mph.

Thanks for the info. you had good value from that bike, I'd say. I have tended to avoid water on my bike, but it is purely a pleasure ride, unlike yours which ws daily transport. the earlier Bafang crank drive motors also suffered from water ingress via the pedal crank shaft, but I understand from posts seen here that the manufacturer has installed some kind of oil seal to prevent it. I was caught out by heavy rain a couple of times, once in a catastrophic type downpour, but I tend not to ride the thing if I can see it will be wet.

Thanks again.

 

[chris_n]

The routes great, and to keep active I will probably head to Farnham to do a bit of shopping and then ride home again, however I don't think I will be able to charge the battery as I do at work and that journey is probably at the maximum of the range of the bike if I ride cross country there and back as it would be pushing up to 30 miles. Lots of fun, with some careful battery management.

Stick another battery on like in parallel like I have, double your range! Comes in even handier when you start climbing more like you are threatening to.
Most importantly enjoy and make the most of your new found freedom, maybe you can come and ride the Alps too.

 

[georgehenry]

Hi Chris, that sounds a very good idea as the original battery does all the hand shaking. I will look back in your threads to see how you did it.

 

[soundwave]

Electric Bike Battery Yamaha Type 36V 20.7Ah

Order Your Replacement Yamaha E-Bike Battery 36V 20.7Ah ✓ Compatibility Guaranteed ✓ Premium Li-Ion Cells ✓ 2 Year Guarantee ✓ Buy Now

www.allbatteries.co.uk

 

[chris_n]

Hi Chris, that sounds a very good idea as the original battery does all the hand shaking. I will look back in your threads to see how you did it.

Removed battery mount, soldered wires, cut a small groove in the base to get the wire outside and fitted connector. I always switch bike on before connecting the second battery as the bike is not expecting power to be available on the main connectors until powered up, probably makes no difference but it's what I do. You may want to check voltage before connecting in which case you need to switch it on first anyway.

 

[Deleted member 16246]

Hi Chris, that sounds a very good idea as the original battery does all the hand shaking. I will look back in your threads to see how you did it.

If I understand you correctly, you are proposing to connect two batteries in parallel. This can be VERY VERY dangerous, especially when the batteries are not at identical voltages - and in your case, they probably won't be. What can happen is that a very large current can flow from one battery (the more charged and higher voltage one) to the other and this can cause fire and serious consequences.

BE CAREFUL and ask fir more advice from known experts before doing this.

 

[Deleted member 16246]

Removed battery mount, soldered wires, cut a small groove in the base to get the wire outside and fitted connector. I always switch bike on before connecting the second battery as the bike is not expecting power to be available on the main connectors until powered up, probably makes no difference but it's what I do. You may want to check voltage before connecting in which case you need to switch it on first anyway.

This sounds extremely dangerous. View some of the videos of fires that were caused by connecting two batteries in parallel when they are not identically charged.

 

[Nealh]

I parallel with no issues at all, scare mongering is one thing but Chris & GH know there stuff so one is trying to teach exp e-bikers how to suck eggs.
I first started using multiple lipos in P and S for my first bikes then graduated to paralleling hard case batts, now I make and parallel soft case packs.
As long as batts/packs are very close one doesn't have to be exact, typically within 0.1v one is safe, for greater safety use a diode/heatsink for each battery.

Schottky blocking / bypass diodes TO-220 with / without Heatsink ideal for solar | eBay

 

[Nealh]

Schottky Diode Parallel Pack Adaptor | Pedelecs - Electric Bike Community

 

[Deleted member 16246]

I parallel with no issues at all, scare mongering is one thing but Chris & GH know there stuff so one is trying to teach exp e-bikers how to suck eggs.
I first started using multiple lipos in P and S for my first bikes then graduated to paralleling hard case batts, now I make and parallel soft case packs.
As long as batts/packs are very close one doesn't have to be exact, typically within 0.1v one is safe, for greater safety use a diode/heatsink for each battery.

Schottky blocking / bypass diodes TO-220 with / without Heatsink ideal for solar | eBay

That's interesting. I've seen videos on here showing paralleled batteries going off like a fire work display, and I think on this site, discussions about the dangers of it. Maybe I have been misled..... I'm not so sure though. The theoretical explanation of why conditions can occur in which the batteries are at very different voltages can cause very large currents to flow are pretty convincing - higher voltage and charge with uncontrolled potential to provide current in one battery, and lower voltage and low internal resistance in the other.

I would think that the presence of a BMS on the output side of the high charge battery would help, and also, had carebeen taken to ensure the batteries were at same or similar voltages and capacities (as in your case) would make it entirely safe while teh two batteries remain in step, but what about as they age and one starts to have lower capacity than the other?

Also, what about when the user is less expert or careful than you are? What about the casual connect the second battery on the fly when needed and one is charged and one not and beginner meddler decides to use a connecting block to link two up on a journey when he is running out of range on his first battery?

This area seems fraught with issues to me - but, as you imply, I am a comparative newcomer to managing large capacity lithium batteries and you are not.

On the matter of using diodes to prevent the flow from one battery to another, there is a video linked to from this site of a New York ebike rider who linked two batteries separated with a diode bridge and he had a spectacular fire outside his apartment building. I think he was called Joel. He was blaming in his words some 'cheap Chinese battery', but I think he either miswired his diode bridge or it failed short circuit (not an unknown happening - though they generally do that because of large reverse voltage, which is not so likely in this application).