Grrrr, no CycleScheme option for Cytronex

[bogmonster]

lol

I'm sure as their business grows this will be something they look at but, if it involves a large amount of time and/or expense you can't really blame them when they are just starting out.

Matt,

Sorry, the 50c thing is a bit of a red hearing in this thread. My reluctance to purchase a bike through 50c is more to do with a recent thread and a certain bike NOW called a 'Can-Do'. It has nothing to do with CycleScheme.

BM

 

[bogmonster]

OK, so as the Cytronex is probably out and a non 50c Pro Connect is difficult I have drawn a blank. The only hope now is the PowerCycle Infineum which looks like it will have a Tongxin motor so hopefully low rolling resistance.

It is heavier, less well equiped and more expensive than the Cytronex but with a bigger battery. Only thing to do is to wait and see if it is any good.

 

[Phil the drill]

Is 50c the only distributor for the Pro Connect in the UK? If so then the bike is not an option for me, I think I would rather walk.

Hi BM,
I found this company on the web recently, advertising both the Agattu and Pro Connect, I don't think they are directly related to 50c, not sure, but they may be worth a look..
Kalkhoff Pro Connect Pedelec 2008 Gents Electric Bike - Free Delivery
Cheers, Phil

 

[Encantador]

They are the same.

The bikes come direct from 50C. I spoke to these guys when I was looking. Very helpful, but when I asked a question they couldn`t answer, they told me to ring 50c which is who would be supplying the bike if I purchased.

 

[fishingpaul]

The ezee torq 2 also has a freewheeling hub motor,and i believe is available from the electric transport shop and cyclepoint,it rides just like a normal bike without power,priced around £1295 if you are anywhere near birmingham you could try mine.

 

[stokepa31_mk2]

The ezee torq 2 also has a freewheeling hub motor,and i believe is available from the electric transport shop and cyclepoint,it rides just like a normal bike without power,priced around £1295 if you are anywhere near birmingham you could try mine.

Paul

I was having a sort through my garage today when i realised i still have the rear shwalbe marathon plus for you bike as well as the original kenda for the front!!!! I had incuded it in the origial ad. gonna be starting my new job in brum city centre on the 20th so let me know if you want to meet some time. pm me.

Back to to thread, i notied quite a difference in free wheeling between the torq and the kalkhoff but i guess it comes down to thigh size. We are gifted in that department

seriously though the kalkhoff free wheels with no resistance at all, though i can understand why 50c are persona non grata. they have behaved very poorly on the forum in the last week. Many are becoming fed up withthe way they dismiss consumer thoughts as stupid. they are having to delete many of their posts to save face.

sad situation

 

[fishingpaul]

Thanks paul i would be gratefull for those please see pm.back to the drag, after a few rides on the torq and finding motor resistance even downhill, i noticed the front disk brake was binding against the wheel,obviously how it was supplied when new, anyway after setting the disk up it now freewheels superbly.

 

[bogmonster]

Well, finally got the answer from HR. CycleScheme only. As I suspected no Cytronrex for me.

I have tried cycling tgo work on my old regular bike and getting in was OK, lots of downhill. Took 1 hour 20 for 21 miles. Coming back took me 1 hour 50 and I was knackered. I would need to get a lot fitter to reach my target time of 1 hour 20 on the way home.

So, I think I am on the verge of getting the Alien 36v kit and recharge at work. The idea being I can use my road bike if I want more of a work out or I can use my mountain bike with kit when I want to be lazy. The range is right on the edge but I don't mind doing a fair bit of work myself. If needs be I will get a second battery. In fact, I might get a whole second kit and fit it to my wife's bike. That way I can use the second battery for work and she can use it at the weekends.

I don't like the Alien rack so I think I will just put the battery in a pannier.

BM.

 

[Mattyduk]

sorry for being a bit slow here but it's the first time I've heard of Cyclescheme

So are we saying that if my company bought the bike for me (the new powabyke X 24) from oue local shop (action bikes - which is a cyclescheme partner), I could get it much cheaper as they would be deducting it from my salary tax free ?

On the Powabyke site it says that at the end of an 18 month term I'd have got the bike for about half the price.

Is this correct ?

 

[bogmonster]

sorry for being a bit slow here but it's the first time I've heard of Cyclescheme

So are we saying that if my company bought the bike for me (the new powabyke X 24) from oue local shop (action bikes - which is a cyclescheme partner), I could get it much cheaper as they would be deducting it from my salary tax free ?

On the Powabyke site it says that at the end of an 18 month term I'd have got the bike for about half the price.

Is this correct ?

That is spot on. The saving depends on your tax band and if your company is vat registered. The company needs to play ball as well. If you have difficulty try and twist thier arm about being green. For details try:

Tax free bikes for work through the Government's Green Transport Initiative - Cyclescheme, provider of Cycle to Work schemes for UK employers

The thing to note is thet the above company is an administrator that takes care of peperwork for a fee. There is no reason your employer could not do the paperwork other than the fact that it is ork for them. My company will only use the CycleScheme administrator so I need dealers who are signed up to that administrator.

BM

 

[the_killjoy]

Two things to note, the scheme generally only applies to the first £1000 of the price and some dealers do charge a £100 fee to cover the cost of the sceme to them.

 

[Caph]

MattyDuk, a word of warning, I did consider the cycle to work scheme but after reading all the fine print I was put off by the fact that it could well leave you very much out of pocket. You see you only the rent the bike from your company and your company is forbidden from agreeing to sell the bike to you up front. In theory, if they have a change of heart, they can keep on charging you rent after the initial agreed term (usually 18 months but this is not a requirement). At no point do you have any claim to the bike but you are liable to pay for the whole agreed term. The same applies if the company experiences problems, you have no rights on the bike. The only way you benefit, is if the company decides after the agreed inital period to sell you the bike, but then the regulations state that they have to sell it to you at current market value and who knows what that would be for a quality electric bike in good condition. Most people find that they are paying 5% of the purchase price but this is definitely not what is stated in the government regulations. Remember, there is no guarantee that they will sell you the bike and they are explicitly forbidden from agreeing to do so while you are renting the bike from them (otherwise it is classed as a hire purchase agreement which the cycle to work scheme explicitly forbids).

Having said all that, I'm sure most people have used this scheme and been able to buy the bike for 5% after 18 months. I just didn't like the fine print!

 

[JohnInStockie]

MattyDuk, a word of warning, I did consider the cycle to work scheme but after reading all the fine print I was put off by the fact that it could well leave you very much out of pocket. You see you only the rent the bike from your company and your company is forbidden from agreeing to sell the bike to you up front. In theory, if they have a change of heart, they can keep on charging you rent after the initial agreed term (usually 18 months but this is not a requirement). At no point do you have any claim to the bike but you are liable to pay for the whole agreed term. The same applies if the company experiences problems, you have no rights on the bike. The only way you benefit, is if the company decides after the agreed inital period to sell you the bike, but then the regulations state that they have to sell it to you at current market value and who knows what that would be for a quality electric bike in good condition. Most people find that they are paying 5% of the purchase price but this is definitely not what is stated in the government regulations. Remember, there is no guarantee that they will sell you the bike and they are explicitly forbidden from agreeing to do so while you are renting the bike from them (otherwise it is classed as a hire purchase agreement which the cycle to work scheme explicitly forbids).

Having said all that, I'm sure most people have used this scheme and been able to buy the bike for 5% after 18 months. I just didn't like the fine print!

Caph

I understand the rules to be:-
The Cycle2Work scheme can be from 6 months to a maximum of 18 months, you cannot lease the bike for longer. After the lease, your company should give you the option to buy the bike and offer to sell you the vehicle for upto 5% of the purchase price (this is a DFT advised number and DFT advised info). Your company cannot continue to lease the bike to you after this period (the standard leasing rules do not apply - I know I work for a car leasing company).

As I understand it, the company is not allowed to dispose of the asset (the bike) without your (the lessee's) consent, which basically means that they can only sell the bike to someone else if you agree. In the case of redundancy the legislation is quite clear that the balance outstanding on the lease(or salary sacrifice) is payable along with any "nominal" fee payable for the bike purchase to end the scheme.

Thats how I understand the whole scheme (and how some companies are selling the bike leasing product as a product line in its own right).

John

 

[JohnInStockie]

MattyDuk

Also note that there is a difference between Cycle2Work and Cyclescheme.

Cycle2Work is the government legislation that allows the purchase of bikes tax free

Cyclescheme is a COMPANY that charges 10% of the bikes price as a commision against bike dealers for using there services to advertise the Cycle2Work scheme.

This often means the you, the purchaser will be left to pick up the 10% shortfall if you buy through Cyclesheme, whereas if you buy using Cycle2Work direct with the dealer you wont have to pay this.

E.g A cycle dealer charges £1000 for an electric bike. Through cycle2Work, you buy the bike. Your company pays the dealer the price £1000 and you take Net cost of £850 (£1000 less VAT) as a salary deduction pre tax deductions, which is a net cost to you of about £54 a month for 12 months if you pay 22% tax .

A cycle dealer charges £1000 for an electric bike. Through CYCLESHEME, you buy the bike. Your company pays Cyclescheme £1000, but Cyclescheme only pay the dealer 90% or £900, and the dealer will ask you to pay the £100 (shortfall for the dealer or forget it as thats the majority of their margin gone with our small ebike market) cut that Cyclescheme have taken, and you take Net cost of £850 (£1000 less VAT) as a salary deduction pre tax deductions, which is a net cost to you of about £54 a month for 12 months if you pay 22% tax .

If you go through Cycle2Work direct with the dealer (and it doesn't have to be a local dealer, they can be any dealer in the UK tax zone), you buy the £1000 bke for about £54 x 12 = £648. If you go through Cyclescheme it cost you £748. Either way its a massive saving on the bike that you want to buy and so its well worth it.

How often do you get your tax back from the government?

Hope this helps

John

 

[Caph]

John, I'm really no expert on the matter, I just read the DFT implementation guide at Department for Transport - Cycle to Work Scheme implementation guidance.

In relation to your rights to buy the bike the regs state "There should be no automatic entitlement for the employee to take ownership of the cycle and cyclists' safety equipment at the end of the loan period." ... "We therefore advise employers that they can indicate in accompanying literature that ex-rental equipment may be sold for a fair market price, but they should make it clear that they cannot commit themselves to doing so, either to the hirer or to his nominee. Any subsequent sale must be pursuant to a separate agreement, entered into after the conclusion of the hire.".

Note the "fair market price". There has never been any mention of up to 5%, and I don't know where this has come from.

In relation to the period it states "There is no fixed time period for which cycles and cyclists' safety equipment must be loaned under a Cycle to Work scheme." The 18 months arises from the fact that you have the right to terminate the agreement after this period if the agreement is longer than 18months. It is not a stated maximum and there is no stated minimum.

One more caveat, you need to use your bike at least 50% of the time on work related journeys to qualify for the tax exemption.

I don't really want to appear negative about this scheme, since I'm sure that the vast majority of companies will honour the spirit of the agreement, but in my personal experiences companies and honour don't always go together very well, and in the current economic climate, if your company goes under, you lose the bike but still remain liable to pay the full cost of the bike as per the lease agreement.

Just call me the harbinger of doom!

In relation to the Cycle Scheme company. I don't know why any company would use them. I would imagine that most companies will already be implementing salary sacrifice since, as far as I've been made aware, this is how tax credits currently work. The only other admin would be buying the bike, but how hard is it to place an order and then pay an invoice! Maybe I'm missing something though.

 

[JohnInStockie]

ok then - Your the Harbinger!!

As I understand the implementation of this agreement (and I've read far too much to back over all the old stuff again), it was indeed brought into being by the DfT as a variant on the "Home Computer Initiative". It has also been modified to a large degree by the Trading Standards.

Although on paper this is a lease, in reality it isn't a lease. If it were a lease then in a situation where an employee was dismissed, it would be impossible for the Lessor to argue in court that the Lessee had to pay the outstanding lease for an asset that they did not have use of, unless this was a Contract Purchase (HP) in which case the Lessee (the employee) would keep the asset (the bike).

The fact that if it goes over the £1000 threshold, that a Consumer Credit License is required should also go to show that in practice this is not a lease, but a form of purchase.

The 5% value was passed to the CTC I believe (heres one ref to it), and is merely meant to be a notional value, an almost "good will" payment to secure the asset out of the lease, after all there is no such thing as a second hand Bike market, there are no companies such as Glasses (Guides), Henley (Coding) or CAP (black book / red book), companies that are in business purely because they monitor the second hand car market.

The reason that all of these rules exist is to get around the laws regarding taxable benefits, leasing laws and asset purchasing. For many companies their car fleet is one of the biggest expenditures of all, if they have 100 or so £20k cars that they replace every 3 years, thats £2m every 3 years, so if they can find a loophole, they will, and they will use it too.

So I guess what I am saying is that the spirit of these agreements is very important, and thats why I personally have not heard of any cases where the 'Harbinger of Doom' was ever present, nor needed to be.

John

 

[JohnInStockie]

I think this paragraph better explains why its classed as a lease from the above link....

A Cycle to Work bicycle is 'hired' to the employee and hence does not fall into a benefit category. If the right to purchase the actual bike hired by an individual employee is guaranteed then this would change to a benefit in kind and exit the salary sacrifice offering.

John

 

[Caph]

This is exactly why I didn't bother using the scheme. They've worded it in such a way as to greatly favour the company and leave the employee in limbo relying on a gentleman's agreement.

I don't know why they don't just allow us to buy the bike and then claim the tax back through bike tax credits. It would be easier for the organisation (it only has to deal with tax credits which it probably is already doing) and easier for us (we own the bike from the outset). Anyone else think this would be a much better idea?

 

[flecc]

They've worded it in such a way as to greatly favour the company and leave the employee in limbo relying on a gentleman's agreement.

Maybe that's to get the companies onboard. If it's too neutral and is passed through a company's legal department, they'd just say it had no advantages for the company, which could tend to kill it.

I don't know why they don't just allow us to buy the bike and then claim the tax back through bike tax credits. It would be easier for the organisation (it only has to deal with tax credits which it probably is already doing) and easier for us (we own the bike from the outset). Anyone else think this would be a much better idea?

I've never known the civil service and politicians do easy. If they did, our lives would be transformed and we wouldn't need so many of them.
.

 

[Cyclezee]

Cytronex need to update their websites regarding this issue Government Schemes Cytronex - Hidden Power

J hn