Grenfell Tower

[Danidl]

There's been speculation in here that people in the upper floors of Grenfell Tower are unlikely to have got out and that the death rate will be much higher as a result.

I haven't agreed with that for various reasons. For example we know that some upper floor residents were out, London being the 24 hour city that it is, and returned to see the tower on fire. We also know of a family on an upper floor who were alerted by telephone and got out.

Now I have information on the people of another upper floor, the 17th. Mesrob Kassemdjian, a popular lecturer at UCC (University Centre Croydon) and known as Robbie to his students was a resident on that floor. He'd smelt smoke, looked out and saw fire below, so he alerted his girl friend and aunt who were staying with him and they then alerted the neighbours. Making their way downstairs their neighbours were heard right behind them and all got out unhurt.

Of course he's lost everything including his extensive book collection, but UCC's Criminology Department are organising a fund raiser for him to replace his book collection.
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I hope you are correct. Two points arise from this the first is that not all residents were tax dodging illegals as has been implied on other fora as we have identified a number who occupied highly responsible positions in health and education
The other point is that many of the reports state that residents knocked on adjacent doors on identifying a fire and before making their own escape, a humane and courageous act.

 

[flecc]

Hi flecc, just a minor correction to my previous posting, the colleague of my daughter referred to is actually from the grenfell tower building itself and did get out without any possessions of course. So her comments about the stronger community bonds within the building have added value!

Again though, I wasn't denying them since I know the strength of such bonds. What I pointed out is that it isn't necessarily with the immediate neighbours, and I know that to be true from my over half century of London flat dwelling.

Think about it, next door neighbours are random and while the ordinary courtesies are observed, there's often no close friendship and knowledge of work and leisure hours and whether someone would be in or not.

Please remember, this was what was in question at the outset, whether next door neighbours could reliably report on the presence or otherwise of neighbours. I know they commonly can't, and certainly not reliably enough for official utterances.
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[Zlatan]

I hope you are correct. Two points arise from this the first is that not all residents were tax dodging illegals as has been implied on other fora as we have identified a number who occupied highly responsible positions in health and education
The other point is that many of the reports state that residents knocked on adjacent doors on identifying a fire and before making their own escape, a humane and courageous act.

The instructions were for people to stay in their flats until fire fighters told them otherwise. A neighbour knocking on your door and shouting fire may well simply make folk stay put.There was a report of a woman deliberately flooding her flat rather than leave.( I believe both her and family were rescued)
What an awful dilemma..

 

[flecc]

I hope you are correct. Two points arise from this the first is that not all residents were tax dodging illegals as has been implied on other fora as we have identified a number who occupied highly responsible positions in health and education

Indeed, in fact in common with many London blocks, a number of the flats are privately owned, and most council tenants in London are gainfully employed. I doubt there were many illegals, and illegals cannot be tax dodging anyway. They are not allowed to take any part in the economy, employment or taxation.

The other point is that many of the reports state that residents knocked on adjacent doors on identifying a fire and before making their own escape, a humane and courageous act.

Yes, exactly as "Robbie" did on the 17th floor.
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[Danidl]

The instructions were for people to stay in their flats until fire fighters told them otherwise.
What an awful dilemma..

. Disasters are never a single fault or failing, going back to the Titanic shows that...
Had the building not been clad, the initial advice was sound. The original architecture and safety systems presupposed that any fire would be from inside and could be contained. The concept that the exterior of the building would ignite was not entertained.. why would it when it was mass concrete.

 

[oldtom]

This tragedy seems to have opened a whole can of worms and I wonder where it's all going to end:

uk-england-london-40389148

Tom

 

[soundwave]

they soon flew round and fitted them this time only took ten years tho guy said it was £250 quid to fit them that they charge the council and mains wired.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-40389148
More than 800 homes in tower blocks on a council estate in Camden, north London, are be evacuated because of safety concerns over cladding in the aftermath of the Grenfell Tower fire

 

[Croxden]

This tragedy seems to have opened a whole can of worms and I wonder where it's all going to end:

uk-england-london-40389148

Tom

As big as the Brexit pages on here.

 

[oldtom]

How many tory MPs does it take to change a light bulb......act on a fire safety report?



Tom

 

[flecc]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-40389148
More than 800 homes in tower blocks on a council estate in Camden, north London, are be evacuated because of safety concerns over cladding in the aftermath of the Grenfell Tower fire

Gross overreaction by a hysterical council. These people are not fit to be in charge of anything.

The chance of a second one immediate following is vanishingly small. All that is needed while the cladding is being removed is a two person night firewatch at each block for the three weeks.

That would only cost a tiny fraction of putting up several hundred in hotels and avoid so greatly inconveniencing the residents.
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[oldtom]

Gross overreaction by a hysterical council. These people are not fit to be in charge of anything.

The chance of a second one immediate following is vanishingly small. All that is needed while the cladding is being removed is a two person night firewatch at each block for the three weeks.

That would only cost a tiny fraction of putting up several hundred in hotels and avoid so greatly inconveniencing the residents.
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I agree absolutely. Elsewhere, I'm sure I read that fire wardens are to be deployed at other vulnerable sites elsewhere in the country. This action in Camden is completely OTT.

Tom

 

[flecc]

I agree absolutely. Elsewhere, I'm sure I read that fire wardens are to be deployed at other vulnerable sites elsewhere in the country. This action in Camden is completely OTT.

Tom

I'm pleased to note that a number of residents have refused to move out. Some say they will not move until there is a proper plan for them, not the hasty chaotic evacuation the council rushed into at 5pm without any notice to residents.

One of the blocks they evacuated turned out to be safe, so everyone had to go back in!

All these idiot councils need to do at most is to put night fire wardens in place during the weeks that cladding is removed.
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[Danidl]

Gross overreaction by a hysterical council. These people are not fit to be in charge of anything.

The chance of a second one immediate following is vanishingly small. All that is needed while the cladding is being removed is a two person night firewatch at each block for the three weeks.

That would only cost a tiny fraction of putting up several hundred in hotels and avoid so greatly inconveniencing the residents.
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. I was also astonished by this decision, the buildings are no safer or less safe than they were three weeks ago. But and there are two major buts now
.1. the council could claim ignorance then they cannot now.
2.Worse, there is now public knowledge that specific buildings are at risk. There are some evil minded people, so .. I won't elaborate.

 

[Danidl]

Again though, I wasn't denying them since I know the strength of such bonds. What I pointed out is that it isn't necessarily with the immediate neighbours, and I know that to be true from my over half century of London flat dwelling.

Think about it, next door neighbours are random and while the ordinary courtesies are observed, there's often no close friendship and knowledge of work and leisure hours and whether someone would be in or not.

Please remember, this was what was in question at the outset, whether next door neighbours could reliably report on the presence or otherwise of neighbours. I know they commonly can't, and certainly not reliably enough for official utterances.
.
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.. flecc, I have no knowledge of apartment living, so I fully accept your expert views, my thoughts were more along the lines of .. yes those people were in they were playing loud music or TV , or I heard the door slam and the lift go down a few hrs ago.. or there seemed to be lots of people going in and out of next door.. as well as the normal social pleasantries of people getting out at the same floor or meeting in the same fruitshop.

 

[flecc]

. I was also astonished by this decision, the buildings are no safer or less safe than they were three weeks ago. But and there are two major buts now
.1. the council could claim ignorance then they cannot now.
2.Worse, there is now public knowledge that specific buildings are at risk. There are some evil minded people, so .. I won't elaborate.

Agreed and understood, but two night fire wardens hired per block and equipped with mobiles and portable sirens would have been sufficient safeguard. Also the five blocks are in a group in sight of each other, so ten pairs of eyes on watch.

Not only far cheaper than using hotels but also far kinder to the residents.
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[flecc]

.. flecc, I have no knowledge of apartment living, so I fully accept your expert views, my thoughts were more along the lines of .. yes those people were in they were playing loud music or TV , or I heard the door slam and the lift go down a few hrs ago.. or there seemed to be lots of people going in and out of next door.. as well as the normal social pleasantries of people getting out at the same floor or meeting in the same fruitshop.

Yes, but as said this isn't even remotely enough to gather reliable statistics on who's in. I think you'd be amazed at how infrequently one sees anyone else on a floor when going in or out. In my six flat section it's very rare that we coincide. The last time from memory was about three weeks ago when I bumped into the couple moving out then, not surprising as they were going in and out a number of times then carrying stuff.

A big factor is different hours, London is a 24 hour city in which a higher proportion of people work shifts than anywhere else in the UK. That's because we have all night transport for all the night activity and many of the services done by day elsewhere have to be done in the night in some London areas. No-one in my block works anything like 9 to 5 for example, they all work different hours and shifts so less chances to coincide.

And hearing people and lifts doesn't necessarily happen. I've been in all day today due to not very nice weather and some indoor jobs to do and heard absolutely nothing of the other residents. Not surprising, only one of my rooms coincides with my next door neighbour and that's three bricks thick and soundproofed. And above me is a precast concrete ceiling, capped in the upstairs flat by a raft of wooden floorboarding and that capped by carpet in accordance with the lease. They'd have to give an elephant dancing lessons for me to hear them.

So I could have been all alone in here today or all the others might have been in, I haven't a clue which. We're most likely to see each other if one of us is outside doing something on their car, then it's wave and greet.
.

 

[mike killay]

I am not too sure that the council could have acted in any other way.
We have had politicians tramping all around this tragedy from day one trying to make political capital out of it.
We have 'investigative' reporters filing all sorts of things.
Imagine the headlines screaming,
'Council knows of flats danger but refuses to evacuate residents.'

 

[flecc]

I am not too sure that the council could have acted in any other way.
We have had politicians tramping all around this tragedy from day one trying to make political capital out of it.
We have 'investigative' reporters filing all sorts of things.
Imagine the headlines screaming,
'Council knows of flats danger but refuses to evacuate residents.'

Only one council has acted in this hysterical way, others with the same cladding haven't and the media haven't attacked them.

In fact it's that one council that has been widely criticised for their idiotic reaction and its thoughtless implementation. Ineffective anyway, since some 80 residents have sensibly refused to move out.
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[mike killay]

Only one council has acted in this hysterical way, others with the same cladding haven't and the media haven't attacked them.

In fact it's that one council that has been widely criticised for their idiotic reaction and its thoughtless implementation. Ineffective anyway, since some 80 residents have sensibly refused to move out.
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Well, seeing the political hysteria being generated, I am reassured that only one council have over-reacted.
Not being in London, I am of course at a disadvantage as to the latest news

 

[Georgew]

I've just finished this poem for my writers'group but thought it apposite for this thread.

Waiting

Evil may not come with dripping fangs

striding on stage in some repulsive form

no…..it may sidle on in a wrinkled business suit

with promises on its lips of lower taxes

of cutting useless red tape and rooting out those layabouts

so different from ourselves….the hard-working majority.


This evil will be made flesh in countless television studios

in large black headlines to be consumed at breakfast time...

divisive hate of those next door swallowed down with cornflakes….

with toast thickly spread with a bitter resentment

at having to pay for those less fortunate...less able

or having a different colour of skin from ours.


Once rooted this will grow….. must grow

and such inhumanity planted in carefully spaced instalments

by well-paid...well-padded Parliamentarians

has blossomed now and all have seen the scarlet flowers…

reaching upwards...upwards….

And now we wait.


George White 25/06/2017