GPS Tracking on new Wisper Sport?

[Andy-Mat]

But I assume it won't stop the bike if it loses satellite lock, or phone signal, else you can't cycle through a tunnel, or use your bike in the vaste areas of Scotland or Wales where even 3g mobile is fictional.

Losing a satellite connection, other than in a tunnel, happens very seldom. I myself have not experienced it, but if it did happen, the map app would still show where the signal was lost and report it again if/when the bike comes out of the tunnel. Tunnels are usually clearly marked, and usually, no bike traffic is allowed in most countries.....
Surprisingly, Scotland is not as bad as many imagine with regard to cell phone usage as even in 2004, I was having business calls, while on holiday driving through the highlands. I never experienced loss of signal, but I was using a proper car phone installation, with external aerial.....
I would like to see what some have experienced with regard to cell phone's reception, without a full antenna install.
But unless in a tunnel, or other areas (city centers with a lot of high rise, New York for example) where SAT reception is sometimes bad, the GPS unit will still store all messages, ready to send them when it comes within range of a cell tower. No data will be lost. Just delayed.
In most places within the UK and Europe, such problems will never happen, unless the Mobile phone part is of such poor quality, but I am sure that this will not be the case with this company......
best wishes
Andy

 

[GSV3MiaC]

My point was that if the bike is not stopped when you lose satellite or phone signal, then a 'tinfoil hat' will disable the tracking. If the bike is stopped, then there are places, like tunnels, where it would be an issue.

Now if the whole frame is the antennae ...

But reading back up thread it seems 'Turn off' is a command sent from hq, rather than automatic, so the tinfoil hat will work just fine.

 

[Wisper Bikes]

My point was that if the bike is not stopped when you lose satellite or phone signal, then a 'tinfoil hat' will disable the tracking. If the bike is stopped, then there are places, like tunnels, where it would be an issue.

Now if the whole frame is the antennae ...

But reading back up thread it seems 'Turn off' is a command sent from hq, rather than automatic, so the tinfoil hat will work just fine.

All absolutely true IF 1. The thief has a tin foil hat with them. 2. They know exactly where to place it. And 3. They can ride the bike tin foil hat in place.

 

[Wisper Bikes]

Losing a satellite connection, other than in a tunnel, happens very seldom. I myself have not experienced it, but if it did happen, the map app would still show where the signal was lost and report it again if/when the bike comes out of the tunnel. Tunnels are usually clearly marked, and usually, no bike traffic is allowed in most countries.....
Surprisingly, Scotland is not as bad as many imagine with regard to cell phone usage as even in 2004, I was having business calls, while on holiday driving through the highlands. I never experienced loss of signal, but I was using a proper car phone installation, with external aerial.....
I would like to see what some have experienced with regard to cell phone's reception, without a full antenna install.
But unless in a tunnel, or other areas (city centers with a lot of high rise, New York for example) where SAT reception is sometimes bad, the GPS unit will still store all messages, ready to send them when it comes within range of a cell tower. No data will be lost. Just delayed.
In most places within the UK and Europe, such problems will never happen, unless the Mobile phone part is of such poor quality, but I am sure that this will not be the case with this company......
best wishes
Andy

In tests, the bike is linking to 12 satellites so cover and accuracy are pretty good. If the bike is taken into a tunnel or underground we will have the last known position recorded, worst way 30 seconds before the bike goes “dark”.

 

[vfr400]

In tests, the bike is linking to 12 satellites so cover and accuracy are pretty good. If the bike is taken into a tunnel or underground we will have the last known position recorded, worst way 30 seconds before the bike goes “dark”.

Have a look at the examples of specific independent tests done on satellite tracking systems. We all all know what we want them to do and what the sellers tell us they can do in the right circumstances.

Take my advice and don't introduce any sort of remote locking systems. Apart from the fact that they can easily be defeated, there are many examples of owners finding their bikes locked, so they couldn't ride them home. I hope you're going to do some objective research and not just go with whatever salespeople and wishful thinkers tell you what to do.

 

[StuartsProjects]

In tests, the bike is linking to 12 satellites so cover and accuracy are pretty good.

Well, it rather depends on which GPS its using. Whilst it might be seeing x satellites and using y satellites, reception of GPS signals in city areas can sometimes be close to marginal, all those high buildings blocking the view of the horizon etc. There can be issues in wooded type areas too where you might find a cycle path.

Do you know the make and model of the actual GPS used, and is it direct standalone or does it rely on a mobile phone connection ?

 

[Andy-Mat]

Well, it rather depends on which GPS its using. Whilst it might be seeing x satellites and using y satellites, reception of GPS signals in city areas can sometimes be close to marginal, all those high buildings blocking the view of the horizon etc. There can be issues in wooded type areas too where you might find a cycle path.

Do you know the make and model of the actual GPS used, and is it direct standalone or does it rely on a mobile phone connection ?

GPS "Trackers", use a SIM card and mobile phone functions, to send SMS data (Lat & Longitude) of exactly where the GPS Tracker is.
Programming allows many different and useful functions to be easily controlled. A phone app can be used to analyze the data and show where the Tracker is on Google maps for example.
How often the position is reported can also be programmed or even changed while an object is being traced.
Some Trackers have phone functions so you can hear and record someone talking for example.
For children who have a tracker, you can switch to a full "phone" so you can talk to them and they back to you.
Not all of these functions are on all trackers, check before purchase.
Regards
Andy

 

[Michael Price]

I would suggest a couple of things
a) it is not much use as a theft deterrent because your average numpty thief will not know it is there - however the addition of an optional very obvious sign or sticker - optional because the bike looks good and this would make it not as good - but good for some people
b) All things considered could you do a deal with an insurance company where they offer a reduced price for theft cover because of this system being installed?? - This may overcome the costs of the subscription???

Whether or not it will work depends on the price I suppose - I will not be buying one because I already have a 'proper' ebike and a folding one - getting another might be expensive in marital terms!!!
But if I was looking now - I might consider it

 

[Wisper Bikes]

Well, it rather depends on which GPS its using. Whilst it might be seeing x satellites and using y satellites, reception of GPS signals in city areas can sometimes be close to marginal, all those high buildings blocking the view of the horizon etc. There can be issues in wooded type areas too where you might find a cycle path.

Do you know the make and model of the actual GPS used, and is it direct standalone or does it rely on a mobile phone connection ?

Hi Stuart,

Thanks for this. I understand that it does not rely on a phone connection as there is no sim card. I will however check.

All the best, David

 

[Wisper Bikes]

I would suggest a couple of things
a) it is not much use as a theft deterrent because your average numpty thief will not know it is there - however the addition of an optional very obvious sign or sticker - optional because the bike looks good and this would make it not as good - but good for some people
b) All things considered could you do a deal with an insurance company where they offer a reduced price for theft cover because of this system being installed?? - This may overcome the costs of the subscription???

Whether or not it will work depends on the price I suppose - I will not be buying one because I already have a 'proper' ebike and a folding one - getting another might be expensive in marital terms!!!
But if I was looking now - I might consider it

"We are working on the pricing now and are involving an insurance company. They are so impressed with the system that they will give discounts on their eBike policies that will cover in the region of half, but maybe all the monthly fee, if insurance is taken with them at the time the system is activated. We are waiting to see their figures."

 

[Andy-Mat]

Hi Stuart,

Thanks for this. I understand that it does not rely on a phone connection as there is no sim card. I will however check.

All the best, David

Interesting.
But how, without some sort of "phone" connection will it be able to work?
Maybe the SIM is "built in", as part of the electronics, e.g. irreplaceable, so the owner is fixed as to which phone company he may use....that may be a problem if the costs are high.
I use the cheapest telephone (SIM) card that does not have any monthly charges, only call and SMS may be used, nothing else. No internet or 5G for example, as they are simply not needed, that keeps the costs way down.
regards
Andy

 

[StuartsProjects]

Hi Stuart,
Thanks for this. I understand that it does not rely on a phone connection as there is no sim card.
All the best, David

No SIM card ?

So how does the communications to and from the tracker work ?

 

[Wisper Bikes]

Sorry, chaps!!

I discussed with our partner in this project and their answer was "Yes the tracker does have a built in Data SIM". I have a unit on my desk and there's no little white sim card!!!

All the best and slightly embarrassed, David

 

[StuartsProjects]

"Yes the tracker does have a built in Data SIM". I have a unit on my desk and there's no little white sim card!!!

In terms of reliability of the GPS to keep a fix in marginal areas thats a good thing.

A standalone GPS needs to download the ephemeris data from the GPS satellite itself, which can be a challenge and can fail in marginal conditions. Even in good conditions a standalone GPS can take 45 seconds to get a fix from cold.

If there is a mobile phone connection then the ephemeris data can be loaded over a fast network connection, referred to as GPS assist.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assisted_GNSS

 

[Wisper Bikes]

Cheers Stewart, I never stop learning!

All the best, David

 

[Andy-Mat]

Sorry, chaps!!

I discussed with our partner in this project and their answer was "Yes the tracker does have a built in Data SIM". I have a unit on my desk and there's no little white sim card!!!

All the best and slightly embarrassed, David

So basically, my guess was accurate, a SIM card is there, but physically not replaceable in any way....!
BUT!! Does this mean that only one company will be supplying the "connection" and what will the costs be for say SMSs in either direction?
What will the costs be for voice transmission either way, assuming that this basic feature will be used?
Or will it simply be a monthly charge, no matter what the usage will be, and if so, how much will that monthly charge be?
Thanks in advance for any answers you are able to supply at this time.
Regards
Andy

 

[Andy-Mat]

In terms of reliability of the GPS to keep a fix in marginal areas thats a good thing.

A standalone GPS needs to download the ephemeris data from the GPS satellite itself, which can be a challenge and can fail in marginal conditions. Even in good conditions a standalone GPS can take 45 seconds to get a fix from cold.

If there is a mobile phone connection then the ephemeris data can be loaded over a fast network connection, referred to as GPS assist.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assisted_GNSS

Interesting link, thanks.
But will it be actually needed? As a bike needs to be "protected" 24 x 7, so an initial switch on, and the unit will then remain switched on and active permanently - hopefully!
Provided the bile's battery is always charged and on the bike, the tiny amount of current used by a GPS tracker is minimal, and can even be further reduced by using the "Fence" or the "movement" sensor(s) utilities in many trackers.
Plus, the GPSs I have used, had their own battery and would run for about a week with no extra power. So I am fairly sure that more modern ones may even be able to run longer than that.....
This would provide good basic coverage for most bike owners I feel.
Many car GPSs suffer problems with connecting, because the car owner jumps in and drives off, making it more difficult for the Nav to synchronize rapidly while moving....I have not noticed this "lag" with any of the ones I have had experince with, but its certainly possible....
Andy

 

[StuartsProjects]

Plus, the GPSs I have used, had their own battery and would run for about a week with no extra power. So I am fairly sure that more modern ones may even be able to run longer than that.....

The 'backup' battery on a GPS does allow it to store the data it needs to quickly establish a fix in maybe 2 or 3 seconds of being powered up. This is called 'hot fix' mode.

However this data goes out of date in 2-4 hours, since the GPS satellites used do move out of view, so if there is power up after 4 hours the GPS can take 45 seconds or so to get a fix.

What you can do to reduce power used, is to switch the GPS off for say a minute then power it up for a couple of seconds to get a fix. Whilst this does save a fair bit of power, there will be ocaisions when the GPS takes 45 seconds or more to update.

 

[Wisper Bikes]

Interesting link, thanks.
But will it be actually needed? As a bike needs to be "protected" 24 x 7, so an initial switch on, and the unit will then remain switched on and active permanently - hopefully!
Provided the bile's battery is always charged and on the bike, the tiny amount of current used by a GPS tracker is minimal, and can even be further reduced by using the "Fence" or the "movement" sensor(s) utilities in many trackers.
Plus, the GPSs I have used, had their own battery and would run for about a week with no extra power. So I am fairly sure that more modern ones may even be able to run longer than that.....
This would provide good basic coverage for most bike owners I feel.
Many car GPSs suffer problems with connecting, because the car owner jumps in and drives off, making it more difficult for the Nav to synchronize rapidly while moving....I have not noticed this "lag" with any of the ones I have had experince with, but its certainly possible....
Andy

We are aiming for £5.99 pcm

All the best, David

 

[Andy-Mat]

The 'backup' battery on a GPS does allow it to store the data it needs to quickly establish a fix in maybe 2 or 3 seconds of being powered up. This is called 'hot fix' mode.

However this data goes out of date in 2-4 hours, since the GPS satellites used do move out of view, so if there is power up after 4 hours the GPS can take 45 seconds or so to get a fix.

What you can do to reduce power used, is to switch the GPS off for say a minute then power it up for a couple of seconds to get a fix. Whilst this does save a fair bit of power, there will be ocaisions when the GPS takes 45 seconds or more to update.

On my bikes, once the tracker was connected it had the power of the bike battery, feeding its internal battery.
This would/could give months of on time.....so the single time it takes to sync does not play a significant role IMHO!
Naturally some owners do not connect it directly to the bike battery, or only while riding.......that is their choice.
My advice would be to extend the "ON" time as far as possible. Also, if using an app, check the state of the tracker say once every 24 hours, if the tracker you have allows that!
regards
Andy