going more than 15mph

[Alex728]

I ddin't realise on this forum Guru was manually added, although it is different again than other vbulletin forums I am on (and I am a mod on two others) where you can choose your own title as well (within reason)

As for speed, would like 20mph max on the open road but I certainly would not always ride at that speed on the urban areas of Ipswich for my own and others safety... although I've never been in real danger there are times when I've there's also the price of batteries and the trade off between power, range and increased wear on batteries.

If there was a 350W Wisper with the same 14Ah battery which got me 30 miles on a charge (rather than the claimed 60+ on lower power), quicker accelleration and 20/21 mph off road I'd be happy with that.

however we've got a risk of going the same way as the Chinese - despite the image most people have of this nation their "iron fist" government could easily have enforced the e-bike legislation harder 10 years ago as other Oriental nations such as Japan, Singapore etc have done. indeed they tried, but were lobbied by the e-bike manufacturers and business groups not to stifle an emerging industry, and the govt actually rescinded bans in some areas! but with the "laissez-faire" approach what has emerged is instead of "eco-friendly" slower e-bikes that we have in EU, a small scooter going at 25-30mph which would require some sort of licensing in the EU (indeed it does in China) is most popular and is now being ridden badly to the point that injury RTCs are commonplace.

high power and no weight limit means that instead of expensive lithium-based batteries sealed lead acids are being used - big enough to cause a eco-problem when spent but presumably too small to be worth weighing in for the lead, so what was once an asset to society is apparently becoming a headache. I expect if the Chinese authorities don't just force all these machines off the road (it appears they are already being confiscated by the Peoples Armed Police) they will insist on driving tests for the more powerful ones and/or checkable speed limitations.

I also remember 10 years ago "mini motos" and "monkey bikes" turning up which were toys more than transport and also were ridden anti-socially on bike paths, and the cops/govt took swift action against these.

just a few days ago I saw an amusing incident but it could have been a lot nastier, two sheepish and paranoid looking lads were picking up a load of sweets, youghurt and other munchies from the bike path and putting them back in a shopping bag. their cycles were on their side.. it was clear they had both been smoking weed, had come back from a late night shop and were carryign back the munchies to their house, on two MTB's without lights, racks or anything practical. one must have been carrying the shopping bag on his handlebars, the other stoner was behind him and a small misjudgement had caused them to collide and spill the contents of the bag.

A harmless misadventure in this case (it made me laugh more than anything and I did check they were both OK) but it shows what little road sense some folk have and just think what could happen when/if the young'uns get access to high powered e-bikes and are sharing the space with pedestrians, other slower cyclists etc.. bear in mind due to price the average age of the youngest e-biker seems to be early 30s but cheaper "MTB style" machine will doutbless become more popular amongst youth...

 

[Straylight]

Even so I think I'd still rather see kids pimping up their ebikes than tarting up cheap cars in which they could do a lot more damage. At least on a bike the rider is somewhat more vulnerable in a collision than when they're enclosed in a metal box, with all the perceived immortality of youth.

Of course it'll never happen, as bikes don't have anything like the macho glamour of cars, which is something I've always found a bit curious, as it takes much more grit and determination to face the elements on a bike IMHO.

On the speed question, I too think that 20mph would be a fine limit for ebikes, in fact safer than on an unpowered bike as one has far more attention to give to the road, than when sweating away on a normal machine. Of course some people will always want to go faster still, but then the current law won't stop them either, so I think it's something of a moot point.

 

[Mussels]

On the speed question, I too think that 20mph would be a fine limit for ebikes, in fact safer than on an unpowered bike as one has far more attention to give to the road, than when sweating away on a normal machine. Of course some people will always want to go faster still, but then the current law won't stop them either, so I think it's something of a moot point.

But that speed is not so safe on cycle paths and shared use paths which are becoming much more common. If you just want a faster bike for using on roads then get a scooter.

 

[Straylight]

Another thing that's occurred to me is that a 20mph limit would make the law easier to enforce, I know this may sound odd, but bear with me .

A fit cyclist can push a relatively heavy ebike with an assistance limit of 15mph to 20mph, but I believe that wind resistance and weight would prevent them going that much faster on the flat without assistance. Therefore, if an e-cyclist was clocked at 25mph+ on the flat, then it'd be a far less ambiguous decision for a police officer to pull them IMO. We would all know exactly where we stood, and the fitter amongst us would not be plagued by the nagging thought of having to explain ourselves to the authorities, even when riding perfectly legaly above 15mph on our ebikes (however remote the chances of such an encounter may be).

Whatd'ya reckon?

 

[Straylight]

But that speed is not so safe on cycle paths and shared use paths which are becoming much more common. If you just want a faster bike for using on roads then get a scooter.

Then have a lower limit for cycle paths...and make it a legal requirement for ebikes to have speedometers.

I think I'm with Flecc on this one, that there has to be an element of self responsibility and control involved.

 

[Mussels]

Then have a lower limit for cycle paths...and make it a legal requirement for ebikes to have speedometers.

I think I'm with Flecc on this one, that there has to be an element of self responsibility and control involved.

Being unlicenced and unregistered is a big benefit of ebikes, a reliable speedo will be expensive and make changing tyre sizes difficult. Enforcing the speed limit will require some sort of incentive, like points on your license.
Also the higher speeds will require stronger brakes and annual testing to make sure they are up to standard.

Whilst ebikes are a niche product ridden mostly by responsible people then little extra legislation is needed, if they are made faster then they will be taken up by people who want to go faster. Those people will add a bit more speed and use them at 25mph on shared paths, then there will be a backlash from the public and the law will be cracked down on as it has in the far east leaving ebikes more restricted than they were to start with.

 

[Straylight]

Well, much in the same way that the police will do rudimentary checks on a car when the driver has been pulled for speeding (lights/tax etc.), such things as speedos could be regarded as secondary offences, and thus the rider's responsibility to maintain. Also any imposed speed limit for cycle paths I think should be global, as an athletic lycra on as TOTR road bike can exceed even our assisted capabilities. Maybe you're right though, and extra legislation may not be the answer, as we already have safety laws to cover cyclists being a danger to others (my favourite being the charge of furious riding - how does one measure how cross someone is? ).

Don't get me wrong, I'm a true believer in the notion that an ebike should be essentially a bicycle, and that electric scooters with vestigial pedals are frankly silly. I simply propose a system that creates a level playing field for all cyclists, which frankly I don't think we have at the moment, given the diversity of riders and bikes in existence.

 

[Alex728]

Even so I think I'd still rather see kids pimping up their ebikes than tarting up cheap cars in which they could do a lot more damage.

our youths are no different than those in Beijing or Singapore (other than some having less tech skills). Particularly in Singapore, the youths did just this with their ebikes, proceeded to ride then on paths shared by pedestrians and there were injury collisions involving pedestrians and other slower cyclists. The nation threw up its hands with a collective shout of "aiyaa!" [1] and the laws were tightened up. All e-bikes sold in SG actually have to be registered with a VOSA style plate (I think they are registered at dealer rather than user level though).

At least on a bike the rider is somewhat more vulnerable in a collision than when they're enclosed in a metal box, with all the perceived immortality of youth.

my interest in criminology also goes as far as monitoring the causes and consequences of RTC's (plenty to keep me busy in this area ) and by and large the youths victims tend to be from their own age group particularly passengers of the cars or other youths they are racing - whilst I fear that a two-wheeled "gary boy/girl" culture would involve more victims from outside the age group. (this might be more to do with road layouts in this region)

consider also that young people in Asia are subject to much harsher discipline than Western youths and yet they were careless with their fast bikes..

Of course it'll never happen, as bikes don't have anything like the macho glamour of cars, which is something I've always found a bit curious, as it takes much more grit and determination to face the elements on a bike IMHO.

this attitude is changing, particularly amongst younger teenagers especially as driving becomes more expensive and risky, and there is more concern over the environment (ironcially if the global warming sceptics become mostly middle aged and "uncool" types this might be a positive thing as youths will want to rebel against them )

As I mentioned earlier I help run a youths/ravers forum/social network and lots of the younger folk are having problems affording to run their cars. if they don't cycle a lot feel inadequate rather than superior (as they think cycling is for the athletic). I've chatted about my ebikes and they think they are cool ideas but its the cost putting them off rather than anything else..


[1] another cultural misconception - people in Chinese speaking nations only say "aiyaa" (艾娅)when things are going wrong, not routinely during a bout of martial arts

 

[Straylight]

I'm glad to hear that there's a shift in attitude toward cycling, from little acorns and all that .

It's sad that there should be such an inconcistency in public feeling, with so many people being killed in car crashes regarded as acceptable, yet the notion of some mostly non fatal accidents involving bikes having the pottential of bringing the 'righteous' to anger. But maybe this can change with an increasing financial preasure on motoring - we can only hope.

 

[flecc]

I'm far from convinced youngsters will easily be weaned off wanting or owning cars, since in addition to those things mentioned here, there are other factors.

Parents today are often very much against their children riding bikes because of the perceived dangers and even more opposed to motorcycles and scooters when their kids are older. Youngsters brought up in that environment won't even have two wheelers on their horizon.

Then there's the hormone factor, at just the age that a young man can drive they tend to be getting more involved with a girl. Bikes of any kind are not ideal for such relationships. When I was young a motorbike sufficed because affording a car was out of the question for almost all the young. But with the common parental disapproval of motorbikes and the fact that car ownership for the young is now both possible and widespread, the car will tend to win. And lets face it, a car is a great snogging shelter, a crossbar just isn't the same. (Cue for someone's crude anatomical joke )
.

 

[Alex728]

I'm far from convinced youngsters will easily be weaned off wanting or owning cars, since in addition to those things mentioned here, there are other factors.

it won't be easy in places like SE England (its different in East Anglia where there clearly already is more of a cycling culture) but I expect the war and continuing economic depression linked with resource depletion and peak oil will make it a necessity in my lifetime, just as it was in your own youth. We might have all this technology but society is going backwards in some respects.

Consider we have been at war for longer than World War II already, and other theatres of conflict are emerging elsewhere than the Middle East.. again maybe this is something more noticeable in East Anglia due to its strong links with the military-industrial complex and a lot of young lads and girls serving (and falling) in HM forces..

Then there's the hormone factor, at just the age that a young man can drive they tend to be getting more involved with a girl. Bikes of any kind are not ideal for such relationships.

A view from the cycle path - David Hembrow: Sexbomb

nor does it just lead to quick flings...

A view from the cycle path - David Hembrow: Cycling together

This is of course the Netherlands, but (and this is something I only recently learned) the Dutch cycling culture is apparently very recent, from my own lifetime rather than something from after World War II..

David Hembrow put as an example the familiar opening sequence to Van Der Valk found on youtube (I only ever watched this bit, as I thought it was really boring for a cop show compared to the Sweeney and Professionals ) but he pointed out that although cyclists are shown in this early 70s film, today they are in the majority whilst drivers are in the minority..

 

[flecc]

the Dutch cycling culture is apparently very recent, from my own lifetime rather than something from after World War II..

That's rather stretching credibility. Living through the war and after, I know that all of us in Europe and Britain had a cycling culture post WW2, simply because almost all cars and motocycles had been requisitioned/destroyed during that war. Almost all new production was earmarked for export to the USA to repay our war debts so not available to the European and British public, who were far too poor to afford cars anyway. With public transport in a post war damaged, ill-maintained and inadequate state, all roads swarmed with bicycles and I saw how the early morning British and French commutes looked similar to Netherlands cycling today. It could not have been different for the Dutch then.

The only difference is that then there was no option, now it's voluntary.
.

 

[Alex728]

With public transport in a post war damaged, ill-maintained and inadequate state, all roads swarmed with bicycles and I saw how the early morning British and French commutes looked similar to Netherlands cycling today. It could not have been different for the Dutch then.

The only difference is that then there was no option, now it's voluntary.
.

whilst this is undoubtedly true, the chap who writes the blog is a British expat (not a native) who used to live in Cambridge. What he was saying is that around the time I was born (which I'm sure as you know was a first resurgence in eco-awareness) the Dutch made a concious collective effort to keep their cycling culture going whilst in Britain and other nations they turned to the motor car - it was "voluntary" but they did it... it seems to match up with films I have seen of NL from the 1970s (like Van der Valk and Puppet on a Chain where there were way more cars on the road..)

Unfortunately I haven't yet learnt enough Dutch to work out exactly what was going on in the political sphere of the Netherlands in the 1970s which made them take this path but there must have been something..

Somewhat ironically I also think mass transport and migration has also meant that some attitudes from The Netherlands and Scandinavian nations have also crossed over the North Sea into East Anglia... it is definitely easier to cycle here than in Reading or London anyway, despite the much larger physical size of the area (which is not free of hills either, nor are the Netherlands!)

Anyway it looks like my generation and those below it are going to be on a "war footing" for many years yet and the "options" for younger folk (particularly high school age) will change..

I've noticed a lot more high school age kids on bikes here very recently - I wonder if parents are no longer able to drive them to and from school (as the bosses can't spare them the time off) nor afford bus fares?

 

[flecc]

the Dutch made a concious collective effort to keep their cycling culture going whilst in Britain and other nations they turned to the motor car

Unfortunately I haven't yet learnt enough Dutch to work out exactly what was going on in the political sphere of the Netherlands in the 1970s which made them take this path but there must have been something..

I'm sure that's more like it Alex, they just kept on cycling whereas in Britain and many EU countries, they couldn't wait to upgrade via scooters into cars.

I think the largely flat terrain and the small physical size of the country would have been major influences in their political decision to continue with cycling as a personal transport policy. In the most hilly one third of Britain, such a policy at that time would have been political suicide if any attempt had been made to enforce it, and there would have been no hope of voluntary adoption.

Indeed that's still true, although there's been a very small and almost imperceptible increase in adult cycling in my hilly area, the chance of widespread adoption is zero for both adults and the young. The local political policy has been for increased/improved public transport, supported by national government.

There is now a new political impetus for increased cycling facilities around here, but unless they flatten out the hills, it's just going to be more wasted money in an area that already has some of the emptiest cycle lanes and cycle shelters anywhere.
.

 

[Alex728]

Indeed that's still true, although there's been a very small and almost imperceptible increase in adult cycling in my hilly area, the chance of widespread adoption is zero for both adults and the young. The local political policy has been for increased/improved public transport, supported by national government. .

it may take a combination of this in hilly areas and encouraging cycling in "flatter" areas (though neither East Anglia nor the Netherlands are completely flat, and both plagued by headwinds)

whatever happens, I think by the time I am in my mid 40s or 50s the "business as usual" situation of todays populace being able to get into cars on a whim (particularly for leisure activities) will no longer be an option, similar to your own youth - already my young friends who live in the sort of rural areas similar to where Straylight is and who "need" cars are finding they cannot afford to fuel or maintain them....

 

[flecc]

Yes, headwinds are a very real problem in flatter areas, but e-bikes are a very good answer, much better at tackling headwinds than at hill climbing in my opinion.

In my hilly area, the young who can't afford cars just use public transport, aided by the fact of free travel for all up to 16 years, up to 18 years for all in full time education. This is a very effective policy for keeping the young out of cars as much as possible, though I think the shock of transition at 18 to full fares after a whole childhood of free travel could have a reverse effect!
.
.