Go Faster Dongles! Here's another to consider

soundwave

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 23, 2015
16,909
6,512
no my bike goes to dongle cut off speed and that is 35mph. and can avg over 20mph on the flat easy.

and way faster than that down hill ;)

its just dont take the pee past police and dont splat human beings tho its probable cheaper to kill them than make them disabled fine wise.

cant find the link but last time someone killed anyone on a push bike got a 3k fine and suspended sentence.
 
Mar 9, 2016
833
402
Well t
no my bike goes to dongle cut off speed and that is 35mph. and can avg over 20mph on the flat easy.

and way faster than that down hill ;)

its just dont take the pee past police and dont splat human beings tho its probable cheaper to kill them than make them disabled fine wise.

cant find the link but last time someone killed anyone on a push bike got a 3k fine and suspended sentence.
Well that's all fine but folk should realise that in doing all that you are breaking the law.
The 15.5 mph limit is exactly that for any ebike, power cut or not. Your dongle is just making it easier to prove your guilt. I don't understand folks thinking on this.
Your pulse modifier is sat on your bike , your bike keeps records of speeds and distances. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to prove bike has got/had power above 15.5 mph, so in worst case scenario not only have you broken speed limit, you,ve done it on an unreg, untaxed,uninsured , motorbike ( well actually a moped)
Its asking for bother for almost no reward...???
If you want to go faster buy a motorbike and insure/tax it. ( then again you might be able to get away without ???)

In whole of Europe once any mods are carried out on any ebike which either raises powered speed over 15.5 mph or raises power over 250w you now have a moped, which in UK is limited to 20 mph,must be reg,insured and you must wear a CE marked crash helmet. You could easily lose your license ...

Ps you aren,t riding a pushbike or pedelec. You are riding an uninsured, un reg moped ( motorbike if caught over 20 mph) without a helmet or MOT.They,d bring back hanging for you
 
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soundwave

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 23, 2015
16,909
6,512
you have not had a go on 1 then as when you use a dongle its half what is on the display so if im going 30mph its still 15mph on the display.

mine cant even keep time let alone do all that lol.

at the end of the day not 1 member here has had there bike taken by police as there just not interested unless you hit somebody then the **** will hit the fan imo.

so say you get a bike from ebike shop and they fit the dongle are you liable or are they for selling you a product not fit for uk law and miss sold as a push bike.

best option is go down there buy 1 and run his ass over in the car park and find out ;)
 
Mar 9, 2016
833
402
you have not had a go on 1 then as when you use a dongle its half what is on the display so if im going 30mph its still 15mph on the display.

mine cant even keep time let alone do all that lol.

at the end of the day not 1 member here has had there bike taken by police as there just not interested unless you hit somebody then the **** will hit the fan imo.

so say you get a bike from ebike shop and they fit the dongle are you liable or are they for selling you a product not fit for uk law and miss sold as a push bike.

best option is go down there buy 1 and run his ass over in the car park and find out ;)
I,l let you do that... I wont be fitting one,but reckon you,d guesssed that.
Take care.
 

anotherkiwi

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 26, 2015
7,845
5,786
The European Union
Its illegal then.
No the GSM motor is legal, going over 25 km/h with assistance isn't.

A 500W capable motor that is labled "250W nominative" is legally a 250W motor because the manufacturer says so.

I hope these points help you with the understanding of the law.
 
Mar 9, 2016
833
402
No the GSM motor is legal, going over 25 km/h with assistance isn't.

A 500W capable motor that is labled "250W nominative" is legally a 250W motor because the manufacturer says so.

I hope these points help you with the understanding of the law.
Thanks for help with the Law.
The 500 w capable motor is labelled as 250 nominal at a certain voltage ( ie the one used on bike)
Manufacturer is merely stating that motor is capable of handling higher voltage ,and hence capable of 500w when doing so. It does not mean the motor is either using 500w or producing over 250w power in the system utilised on bike, If it did manufacturer would be in breach of law.
Clue is in word " nominal", ie named ,@ a named voltage.
Hope this helps your physics.

And by the way going over 25 kmh without power on an ebike is illegal. ( to letter of law)
 
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anotherkiwi

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 26, 2015
7,845
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The European Union
Thanks for help with the Law.
The 500 w capable motor is labelled as 250 nominal at a certain voltage ( ie the one used on bike)
Manufacturer is merely stating that motor is capable of handling higher voltage ,and hence capable of 500w when doing so. It does not mean the motor is either using 500w or producing over 250w power in the system utilised on bike, If it did manufacturer would be in breach of law.
Hope this helps your physics.
We are talking about EN15194? That is the only law here in France for pedelecs.

"3.22
continuous rated power continuous (or constant) output power specified by manufacturer, at which the motor reaches its thermal equilibrium at given ambient conditions
NOTE
Thermal equilibrium: temperatures of motor parts do not vary more than 2K per hour."

My bold text, if the manufacturer says that the motor is 250 W it is 250 W. My physics are fine thanks to a refresher course provided by members of this forum (at high school I was top of class in physics).

And by the way going over 25 kmh without power on an ebike is illegal. ( to letter of law)
No, the legal speed of a bicycle is the speed set by the road code and local laws. A pedelec is a bicycle. On the open road here (France) absolute top legal speed is 90 km/h (except for competitions) because you can't ride a bike on dual carriageways or motorways.
 
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We are talking about EN15194? That is the only law here in France for pedelecs.

"3.22
continuous rated power continuous (or constant) output power specified by manufacturer, at which the motor reaches its thermal equilibrium at given ambient conditions
NOTE
Thermal equilibrium: temperatures of motor parts do not vary more than 2K per hour."

My bold text, if the manufacturer says that the motor is 250 W it is 250 W. My physics are fine thanks to a refresher course provided by members of this forum (at high school I was top of class in physics).



No, the legal speed of a bicycle is the speed set by the road code and local laws. A pedelec is a bicycle. On the open road here (France) absolute top legal speed is 90 km/h (except for competitions) because you can't ride a bike on dual carriageways or motorways.
We are actually agreeing with one another over power , 250 W is 250 W..agreed.

On speed issue not too sure ,its a grey area. Issue started over dongle and once fitted bike is not a pedelec.
Seems folk quote laws but go ahead and ignore them. Mopeds are limited to 20 mph ..end of. You go through a highstreet on a pedelec at 30 mph and test the laws Mr plod sees fit to apply.
But I,ll bow to your knowledge over unpowered pedelec legal limit. Repeating what I,d seen on here.

My point on all this is once modified bike is not a pedelec.
 

Gubbins

Esteemed Pedelecer
Might sound a bit old fuddy duddy here but once you fit a dongle you might aswell just ride around on an uninsured, untaxed,unregistered fireblade . You,d go way faster and still only be breaking same laws ???
I once tried to pass a guy on a blade.. I gave it up at 135.. need more than a dongle to be a blade..[emoji26]
 

trex

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 15, 2011
7,703
2,671
Flud, you like physics, let me explain. On flat roads and up to 15mph, the motor gives between 5WH per mile to about 12WH/m depending on the rider's fitness. That means that at 15mph, the motor outputs 75W of mechanical assistance to a fit rider (5WH/m * 15m/h) and up to 180W to a very unfit rider, much less than its continuous maximum afforded by law. On a steep hill, the law allows much higher motor power to help with climbing, as long as the motor still cuts out at 15mph. The Bosch CX motor for example can hit 750W output.
As for torque, if the bike uses a hub motor, it's usually measured directly at the motor using a dynometer. Most e-bikes with 120mm wide geared hub motors deliver about 30NM maximum, larger 180mm wide motors (commonly called BPM) about 50NM maximum, they are made for people who live in very hilly areas. For crank driven motors, it's measured at the chainring, so the figure needs to be scaled down by the F/R ratio. The CX has 2.5 internal divider that needs to be applied to the front ring for comparison. All e-bikes that are capable of assistance more than 15mph + 10% must be limited to 15mph. Bikes with common 120mm geared hub motors don't have to have speedometer because their design limits the no load speed to around 18mph but crank driven bikes must have speedometer.
As for the Fireblade, you said it yourself, the torque on motorbikes is usually measured at the flywheel, before the gearbox, similar to crank driven bikes. The difference is in the gearbox design. Bikes have more teeth at the front than at the rear.
 
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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,203
30,604
Mopeds are limited to 20 mph ..end of.
You mention this several times but it's not true Flud. The UK moped speed limit is 28 mph, equivalent to the EU moped speed limit of 45 kph. This is also the speed limit of the S class high speed e-bikes that are permitted in some EU legislatures and Switzerland. The classification of e-mopeds is L1e-B.

The 35 mph dongled speed that someone mentioned earlier means it's also not a moped, full motorcycle laws apply.

There is also an L1e-A class, Low Powered Mopeds, restricted to 15.5 mph (25 kph) and bicycle based but permitted 1000 watts. They are also subject to moped legal conditions, registration, insurance and helmet etc. There are no commercial machines that are compliant with this at present.
.
 
Mar 9, 2016
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flecc
That's no doubt all the case but fact remains a pedelec stops being a pedelec with only minor modifications.
Its exactly same with 12bhp law for 125 learner legal mc. Kids mess about with them thinking all fine . They are no more within law than riding 250 or bigger.
As its going, with firms openly selling dongles, pulse modifiers or whatever its only a matter of time before authorities step in, point out its unenforceable to stick to 250 W and 15.5 mph and put them all as motorcycles. No more off road powered at all. ( which is virtually where we were pre pedelec)
 
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Flud, you like physics, let me explain. On flat roads and up to 15mph, the motor gives between 5WH per mile to about 12WH/m depending on the rider's fitness. That means that at 15mph, the motor outputs 75W of mechanical assistance to a fit rider (5WH/m * 15m/h) and up to 180W to a very unfit rider, much less than its continuous maximum afforded by law. On a steep hill, the law allows much higher motor power to help with climbing, as long as the motor still cuts out at 15mph. The Bosch CX motor for example can hit 750W output.
As for torque, if the bike uses a hub motor, it's usually measured directly at the motor using a dynometer. Most e-bikes with 120mm wide geared hub motors deliver about 30NM maximum, larger 180mm wide motors (commonly called BPM) about 50NM maximum, they are made for people who live in very hilly areas. For crank driven motors, it's measured at the chainring, so the figure needs to be scaled down by the F/R ratio. The CX has 2.5 internal divider that needs to be applied to the front ring for comparison. All e-bikes that are capable of assistance more than 15mph + 10% must be limited to 15mph. Bikes with common 120mm geared hub motors don't have to have speedometer because their design limits the no load speed to around 18mph but crank driven bikes must have speedometer.
As for the Fireblade, you said it yourself, the torque on motorbikes is usually measured at the flywheel, before the gearbox, similar to crank driven bikes. The difference is in the gearbox design. Bikes have more teeth at the front than at the rear.
Good post. I,ll study it a bit before answering.
Thought about it...sort of...
So we are saying that this 250w limit is flexible to 750w on hills?? For going up ...Well first of all I,m not sure about that but I,ll accept point but bike has no clue its going uphill. It senses resistance to movement from crank, if you pedalled hard enough that 750 watts would be available for acceleration?? Upto its cut out speed..

There,s a poster on here claiming 35 mph powered top speed and 20 mph average on roads...with a dongle on a "pedelec".
Are we really suggesting that,s within law and won't have future consequences for us all.
 
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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,203
30,604
fact remains a pedelec stops being a pedelec with only minor modifications.
Absolutely, and I'm not disagreeing. I just corrected that minor point on speed.

There's virtually no off-road now anyway, anywhere that the public have access to is not permitted for illegal pedelecs etc. So with right to roam law, "off-road" is almost reduced to ones own garden for most people.
.
 

anotherkiwi

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 26, 2015
7,845
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The European Union
If you have a dongled pedelec and the assistance is set so that it cuts out at 25 km/h it is still a pedelec. The nominative power is the same you have in no way modified that.

The point of law is using a device to get around the cut out speed, that is illegal. If it (the dongle) is mounted and the cut out speed is maintained at 25 km/h you are not breaking the law. You have added non standard electrical equipment to your bike. Does it respect radio frequency emission norms? That is the only point of EN15194 you can be done for if you stay within the speed as defined therein.
 

trex

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 15, 2011
7,703
2,671
...
Does it respect radio frequency emission norms? That is the only point of EN15194 you can be done for if you stay within the speed as defined therein.
Do dongle manufacturers test their products for EMF / RFI?
I was thinking that using a pedelec magnet disc for dongle may get round the testing issue.
 
Mar 9, 2016
833
402
If you have a dongled pedelec and the assistance is set so that it cuts out at 25 km/h it is still a pedelec. The nominative power is the same you have in no way modified that.

The point of law is using a device to get around the cut out speed, that is illegal. If it (the dongle) is mounted and the cut out speed is maintained at 25 km/h you are not breaking the law. You have added non standard electrical equipment to your bike. Does it respect radio frequency emission norms? That is the only point of EN15194 you can be done for if you stay within the speed as defined therein.
??? Well what's dongle doing if bike still cuts power at 25 kmh and power is no higher ???

Not much ??
 
Mar 9, 2016
833
402
Absolutely, and I'm not disagreeing. I just corrected that minor point on speed.

There's virtually no off-road now anyway, anywhere that the public have access to is not permitted for illegal pedelecs etc. So with right to roam law, "off-road" is almost reduced to ones own garden for most people.
.
I hear what you are saying but last week I did 35 miles around Lady Bower, enjoyed it. Never did more than 15 mph ( think tracks are subject to 10mph (sign saying so in some)
That's about double distance I,d normally do with similar effort levels. Yes would love to go around same course on an enduro mc but that's gone for good. Don't want to lose what we have now. Wouldn't take much??
 
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anotherkiwi

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 26, 2015
7,845
5,786
The European Union
??? Well what's dongle doing if bike still cuts power at 25 kmh and power is no higher ???

Not much ??
My post is about the legality of having a dongle on the bike. If it isn't helping you break the law it can't be an illegal device.

The motor power will never be higher than the manufacturers designed limit but a dongle could give you access to the full power of the Bosch motor (350 W nominative instead of 250 W) without increasing the speed.

Useful on hills, cargo bike...
 

Alan Quay

Esteemed Pedelecer
Dec 4, 2012
2,351
1,076
Devon
Good post. I,ll study it a bit before answering.
Thought about it...sort of...
So we are saying that this 250w limit is flexible to 750w on hills?? For going up ...Well first of all I,m not sure about that but I,ll accept point but bike has no clue its going uphill. It senses resistance to movement from crank, if you pedalled hard enough that 750 watts would be available for acceleration?? Upto its cut out speed..

There,s a poster on here claiming 35 mph powered top speed and 20 mph average on roads...with a dongle on a "pedelec".
Are we really suggesting that,s within law and won't have future consequences for us all.

Its not a complicated as all that.

The motor must not have a continuous rating of more than 250W. This rating is decided by the manufacturer, and has nothing to do with voltage or current...

There is no maximum power limit for a pedelec.

I have seen legal pedelecs that can pull 25 amps at 42 volts (>1000W). If the sticker says 250w then its all ok.