Giant Road e+1 Winter Riding

[Izzyekerslike]

OK so, long story short. I love the bike. Its everything I wanted and hoped for. Yes there are negatives, the weight being one. I cannot ride with a group of roadies on the flat, its hard to push the bike along over 18 mph for a sustained period.

I have the same bike and there is a quick and easy solution to the speed issue... pm me.

 

[Mavverick]

OK so, long story short. I love the bike. Its everything I wanted and hoped for. Yes there are negatives, the weight being one. I cannot ride with a group of roadies on the flat, its hard to push the bike along over 18 mph for a sustained period.

I have the same bike and there is a quick and easy solution to the speed issue... pm me.

Just wanted to piggyback here. I'm in the US so my speed is limited to 28 MPH, but I definitely would not be riding this bike with a 15 MPH speed limit. There are options for you. Speedbox2 being one.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[GLJoe]

I found that as you spin up to increase cadence, for how I would normally hit a climb, the bike is less responsive to providing power, I found using a lower cadence gave me more benefit and took some getting used to

Just picking up on this comment on this resurrected thread.

Now that I have more experience in using ebikes in anger, I'm continually fascinated that this particular issue Jim has noticed isn't brought up more often. I would say that for many people, its a potential deal breaker when one is deciding which e-bike to buy, but something that hardly anyone talks about.
Now in this case, the 'many people' actually means something along the lines of 'people who are keen cyclists that want to ride their bikes in as similar a manner as is possible to a non-ebike and at cadence values that the majority of experienced cyclists consider optimal'.
One shouldn't have to adjust their riding style. The bike should assist you at the normal style of riding used.
If I'm right here, Jim's bike is using a Yamaha PW motor, and that is the problem. Not that the problem is unique to the PW - it seems that many others out there are the same. Its because of the sharp power rolloff once you go over a certain RPM (the graphs I've seen seem to indicate that the Bafang motors are just as bad for example).
If you are someone who is or was a keen club cyclist, I would think it very likely that you would often be hitting this RPM ceiling during the course of a varied ride. Its a different matter for more casual riders, they are unlikely to often hit this ceiling. But bikes like the Giant road-e aren't really targeted at them.
Of course the later Bosch performance motors don't have this problem (or at least not to the same extent) as the power cuttoff is higher up the RPM range. The graphs of the latest PWX motor also suggest that Yamaha have also now sorted it.
Anyone know what the latest shimano motors are like in this respect? they seem to be appearing in a whole bunch of 2017/18 bikes last time I looked in some shops.

 

[Gubbins]

Just picking up on this comment on this resurrected thread.

Now that I have more experience in using ebikes in anger, I'm continually fascinated that this particular issue Jim has noticed isn't brought up more often. I would say that for many people, its a potential deal breaker when one is deciding which e-bike to buy, but something that hardly anyone talks about.
Now in this case, the 'many people' actually means something along the lines of 'people who are keen cyclists that want to ride their bikes in as similar a manner as is possible to a non-ebike and at cadence values that the majority of experienced cyclists consider optimal'.
One shouldn't have to adjust their riding style. The bike should assist you at the normal style of riding used.
If I'm right here, Jim's bike is using a Yamaha PW motor, and that is the problem. Not that the problem is unique to the PW - it seems that many others out there are the same. Its because of the sharp power rolloff once you go over a certain RPM (the graphs I've seen seem to indicate that the Bafang motors are just as bad for example).
If you are someone who is or was a keen club cyclist, I would think it very likely that you would often be hitting this RPM ceiling during the course of a varied ride. Its a different matter for more casual riders, they are unlikely to often hit this ceiling. But bikes like the Giant road-e aren't really targeted at them.
Of course the later Bosch performance motors don't have this problem (or at least not to the same extent) as the power cuttoff is higher up the RPM range. The graphs of the latest PWX motor also suggest that Yamaha have also now sorted it.
Anyone know what the latest shimano motors are like in this respect? they seem to be appearing in a whole bunch of 2017/18 bikes last time I looked in some shops.

I saw an interesting youtube review which compared this bike with a giant racing bike on a mountain ride and pointed out that the mudguard and rear rack mounting points suggested that this bike is targeted at casual riders.. As a casual rider myself I only hit the rpm ceiling when setting off from lights and roundabouts in a low gear, and quickly found that I don't need a low gear for this as there is so much low rpm torque setting off quickly is easily achieved without spinning my legs fast.
My ideal cadence is around 70 to 75 and on steep hills I drop to about 60. I have tried 90 but dont like it..
I feel that this bike is aimed squarely at me and suits me better that any bike I have ever owned.

 

[Gubbins]

Just wanted to piggyback here. I'm in the US so my speed is limited to 28 MPH, but I definitely would not be riding this bike with a 15 MPH speed limit. There are options for you. Speedbox2 being one.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Just out of interst.. what sort of range do you get with your 28mph cutoff?

 

[GLJoe]

I saw an interesting youtube review which compared this bike with a giant racing bike on a mountain ride and pointed out that the mudguard and rear rack mounting points suggested that this bike is targeted at casual riders.

Well I saw a youtube video from the senior global marketing manager of Giant who described the bike as a 'performance orientated road bike'.
Since there aren't a plethora of different offerings in this category, sticking on some mounting points just widens the scope a little, it doesn't mean its 'targeted at casual users'.

Apart from a personal interest in bikes like this, I am constantly thinking of a (older) friend of mine who for decades was a keen participant with his local cycling club - out for the long sunday rides with the fast bunch. Unfortunately he's had some serious heart issues recently and while he still rides, he can't go with the club guys any longer. I am sure a suitable e-bike would let him continue to do what he loves, but take away the dangers of straining on hills. But I'm really struggling to recommend a specific bike for him because he would want a bike that performs in a very similar way to his usual racer. Things like the 15mph limit and the power falloff at higher cadences with some motors would be a big problem.

My ideal cadence is around 70 to 75 and on steep hills I drop to about 60. I have tried 90 but dont like it..
I feel that this bike is aimed squarely at me and suits me better that any bike I have ever owned.

The Yamaha motor has peak power around the 70-75RPM range, so its not surprising you like it.
Most club cyclists however would be aiming for around 80-100 RPM though, faster for brief periods like when you want to pick up a bit of speed to climb a short hill. At those higher cadences, the Yamaha motor is giving out virtually zero assist!
When Court of ElectricBikeReview used to do videos on bikes with the Yamaha motors, he always kept harping on (in as politically correct a manner as he could!) about how he preferred the Bosch motors because the Yamaha had limited cadence range (without REALLY explaining the extent of the problem). I like Court in general, but I always thought of him as a Bosch fanboy because of this.
Until my family bought a Yamaha PW bike and I started to ride one - then I understood exactly where he was coming from!

I would argue that drop handlebar racing road bikes are generally not for 'casual users'. However the target group that WOULD want a bike like this, also don't want to be limited to a 15mph assist, neither would many of them want an assist that started to decrease rapidly after around 90rpm. Not really a lot of choice out there, especially in the UK! which is a shame.

 

[Gubbins]

Well I saw a youtube video from the senior global marketing manager of Giant who described the bike as a 'performance orientated road bike'.
Since there aren't a plethora of different offerings in this category, sticking on some mounting points just widens the scope a little, it doesn't mean its 'targeted at casual users'.

Apart from a personal interest in bikes like this, I am constantly thinking of a (older) friend of mine who for decades was a keen participant with his local cycling club - out for the long sunday rides with the fast bunch. Unfortunately he's had some serious heart issues recently and while he still rides, he can't go with the club guys any longer. I am sure a suitable e-bike would let him continue to do what he loves, but take away the dangers of straining on hills. But I'm really struggling to recommend a specific bike for him because he would want a bike that performs in a very similar way to his usual racer. Things like the 15mph limit and the power falloff at higher cadences with some motors would be a big problem.



The Yamaha motor has peak power around the 70-75RPM range, so its not surprising you like it.
Most club cyclists however would be aiming for around 80-100 RPM though, faster for brief periods like when you want to pick up a bit of speed to climb a short hill. At those higher cadences, the Yamaha motor is giving out virtually zero assist!
When Court of ElectricBikeReview used to do videos on bikes with the Yamaha motors, he always kept harping on (in as politically correct a manner as he could!) about how he preferred the Bosch motors because the Yamaha had limited cadence range (without REALLY explaining the extent of the problem). I like Court in general, but I always thought of him as a Bosch fanboy because of this.
Until my family bought a Yamaha PW bike and I started to ride one - then I understood exactly where he was coming from!

I would argue that drop handlebar racing road bikes are generally not for 'casual users'. However the target group that WOULD want a bike like this, also don't want to be limited to a 15mph assist, neither would many of them want an assist that started to decrease rapidly after around 90rpm. Not really a lot of choice out there, especially in the UK! which is a shame.

I suppose it depends on how you would describe a casual user.. I am 68 reasonably fit and rather than casual I would describe myself as a recreational user. I ride between 50 and 100 miles per week split between a Bosch CX MTB and the Giant +1 with my longest rides being up to 40 miles(rarely) but usually between 15 and 30. I would counter your drop bars not for casual users by asking why not? Its a bit like suggesting E-Bikes are only for the old and infirm and not for the young as they dont need them.
The 15mph thing is ok for me as I am happy enough at that speed (probably my age) and on the odd occasion I get up near 30mph the roads are so bad that its not a nice ride! Plus its the law anyway. Look what happened recently with the furious cycling story.

 

[Mavverick]

Just out of interst.. what sort of range do you get with your 28mph cutoff?

I've never actually run the battery out. I did do one 50 mile ride mostly in ECO but did bump it up into POWER mode for stretches of climbing. I ended the ride with 25% remaining. I should also mention I have the 2017 model which has the 500wh battery.

 

[Gubbins]

I've never actually run the battery out. I did do one 50 mile ride mostly in ECO but did bump it up into POWER mode for stretches of climbing. I ended the ride with 25% remaining. I should also mention I have the 2017 model which has the 500wh battery.

Mine the 2016. Also with a 500w battery and get similar range so no real penalty for going faster.. although i ride in normal all the time. I have never tried eco for any distance.

 

[GLJoe]

I would counter your drop bars not for casual users by asking why not? Its a bit like suggesting E-Bikes are only for the old and infirm and not for the young as they dont need them.

Please read my post correctly and/or quote it correctly.
What I said was:
"I would argue that drop handlebar racing road bikes are generally not for 'casual users' "

Anyone can buy any bike and use it, despite the fact that they don't fall neatly into the general target group for which the manufacturers designed the bike for. Chances are though, there is a more suitable bike out there for them and they actually bought the wrong model. But people are free to buy and choose whatever they want.
If you think that drop handlebar racing bikes really are targeted for casual users, go and have a look at places like busy tourist areas where there are large bike hire companies with dozens of different models to cater for casual users, and see how many of that type of bike you can hire. I would wager it would be zero for the majority of places.
Sure, you CAN hire drop handlebar racing bikes (for example in Bedoin at the start of the Mt Ventoux climb)... but guess what ... its mostly 'serious' riders who hire bikes here for fairly serious riding!

The 15mph thing is ok for me as I am happy enough at that speed (probably my age)

Maybe, but that's irrelevant as my post wasn't directed at you and I don't believe you fall into the main target group that your bike was designed for.

My point was directed at the issues facing someone who is in most ways a keen cyclist and would like to ride like, and/or with, keen club cyclists and wants/needs a traditional drop handle bar road bike but with electric assist to do this. A bike like the Giant Road-e comes very close to fulfilling that requirement, but its crippled in the UK by the 15mph limit (although of course there are ways to circumvent that and it doesn't apply anyway in other parts of the world), and I would argue its also flawed in design by having a motor that doesn't give sufficient power delivery in the higher cadence ranges that most club riders would encounter during a normal ride - necessitating a change in riding style, which isn't good, and is especially annoying if you are also still riding a conventional non-e bike and switch back and forth etc. Sure you can change your riding style, but you shouldn't have to.

As I like most (other) things about this particular bike and it has crossed my mind on a number of occasions to get something like this, I did some more reading last night and while I've seen Courts video review before, I hadn't read his text. I should have. He does actually point out the upper cadence issue and he is right that one needs to have a test ride first before buying a bike to see if it affects ones particular style of riding. Sometimes hard for a lot of people in the UK though who don't have a shop within easy range!
https://electricbikereview.com/giant/road-e-plus/

 

[Izzyekerslike]

I was a club cyclist and now have a Giant Road E+1. I think it's fantastic, however I always preferred to push big gears.
But if the choice is lower cadence or not riding its not much of a decision.

 

[Jimbobins]

I get 28 to 30 mile range with no restriction, and it is one hell of a ride...

That's probably why my rear wheel is in being rebuilt as I have destroyed the spokes, and a combination of my increased frame and terrible roads. I have also had to replace the chain, after it failed a few miles from home, after a 40 mile 3 weeks ago, ad probably due to cross chaining as I tend to find I stick to the big ring...

I am back on my bike now, having put 500 miles in in the last few weeks, and mixing in some regular bike riding too. Doctors orders are still to take care as I have some 6 months before I am fully healed.

I almost have the strength back and I can cruise now above the cut off, only needing assistance on inclines and head winds. I also no longer live in Lancashire, and have sold the house and live South of Sheffield. Lots happened in the last 6 months. I will be starting the daily commute to work from late October, as I will be again moving but to South of Doncaster (flat lands), so will be referring back to the original point of this post and that's winter riding.

With regard to GLJoes post. I am getting used to it, and I have noticed there is an optimum cadence to keep the assistance. Its a matter of finding the sweat spot, so that power doesn't cut in and cut out with out it being noticeable. I do have a lesser cadence for a road biker. I tend to float in the low 70's, and like to spin up hills, and with out assistance I am a slow climber. I am to big a frame to spring up big slopes.

This bike is in no way going to allow you to ride with a standard roadie group, not with the current speed limitation. 15.5 mph just isn't fast enough. It has to be derestricted and then you would have to run mainly in Eco/Normal. As I started my post, I can do my daily commute on the illegal set up, just, and than means 16.5 miles in 1 hour 10 minutes, with a significant hill in the middle.

As for Giant targeting a particular type of rider in the UK, the failing is the speed limitation and then assistance distance, which would have to be a trade off. On recent rides, on the way out, I managed 35 miles on just 20% of the power (limited) on normal, but turning into the wind and heading home, admittedly I got lost and was late, I ended up with 12% power after 56 miles. I cant deny I don't enjoy it, and its got me out riding, all be it on my own.... No one likes me... bloody ebike rider... although yesterday I lost a KOM to some one on a e-mountain bike....

Once I get my wheels back, Ill drop off the limiter again and try a long ride on normal power setting. Saying that, its Tour of Britain next week, and I am cycling over to watch 2 stages. Ill report back.

 

[Gubbins]

Please read my post correctly and/or quote it correctly.
What I said was:
"I would argue that drop handlebar racing road bikes are generally not for 'casual users' "

Anyone can buy any bike and use it, despite the fact that they don't fall neatly into the general target group for which the manufacturers designed the bike for. Chances are though, there is a more suitable bike out there for them and they actually bought the wrong model. But people are free to buy and choose whatever they want.
If you think that drop handlebar racing bikes really are targeted for casual users, go and have a look at places like busy tourist areas where there are large bike hire companies with dozens of different models to cater for casual users, and see how many of that type of bike you can hire. I would wager it would be zero for the majority of places.
Sure, you CAN hire drop handlebar racing bikes (for example in Bedoin at the start of the Mt Ventoux climb)... but guess what ... its mostly 'serious' riders who hire bikes here for fairly serious riding!



Maybe, but that's irrelevant as my post wasn't directed at you and I don't believe you fall into the main target group that your bike was designed for.

My point was directed at the issues facing someone who is in most ways a keen cyclist and would like to ride like, and/or with, keen club cyclists and wants/needs a traditional drop handle bar road bike but with electric assist to do this. A bike like the Giant Road-e comes very close to fulfilling that requirement, but its crippled in the UK by the 15mph limit (although of course there are ways to circumvent that and it doesn't apply anyway in other parts of the world), and I would argue its also flawed in design by having a motor that doesn't give sufficient power delivery in the higher cadence ranges that most club riders would encounter during a normal ride - necessitating a change in riding style, which isn't good, and is especially annoying if you are also still riding a conventional non-e bike and switch back and forth etc. Sure you can change your riding style, but you shouldn't have to.

As I like most (other) things about this particular bike and it has crossed my mind on a number of occasions to get something like this, I did some more reading last night and while I've seen Courts video review before, I hadn't read his text. I should have. He does actually point out the upper cadence issue and he is right that one needs to have a test ride first before buying a bike to see if it affects ones particular style of riding. Sometimes hard for a lot of people in the UK though who don't have a shop within easy range!
https://electricbikereview.com/giant/road-e-plus/

JUst to be clear, I didnt take or mean any offence.. Was just offering my point of view.. Its just that the majority of group riders around here see it as at best an abortion and would touch it with a barge pole! Although I must admit that attitudes are slowly changing..

 

[Gubbins]

Just had a thought or two..
If you add a speedup device it could potentially make it go so fast as to be obvious, or even dangerous.. so,
Could this be controlled by the cadence ceiling? It would seem that these devices double the cutoff, and if so then the motor is always working up to 30MPH, but, by spinning up to 85 rpms or above at around 20mph would the assistance diminish to a negligible amount due to the power characteristic of the Yamaha motor?

 

[Artstu]

Just had a thought or two..
If you add a speedup device it could potentially make it go so fast as to be obvious, or even dangerous.. so,
Could this be controlled by the cadence ceiling? It would seem that these devices double the cutoff, and if so then the motor is always working up to 30MPH, but, by spinning up to 85 rpms or above at around 20mph would the assistance diminish to a negligible amount due to the power characteristic of the Yamaha motor?

Without complicating things it'll still go at the speed you wish to go at, so if you want to do say 18 mph just adjust the effort you put in, you can of course fine tune things by using the lowest power setting. It isn't going to suddenly turn into some sort of uncontrollable beast of a machine.

 

[Jimbobins]

So, I have tested this but only by moving the speed sensor to the pedal, and I can understand your thought process, but it seems not to work just as I thought it would. I was hoping that the assistance was endless. maybe it is with one of theses devices.

When I am pushing on, appropriate gear and when the assistance stops the dash shows 12 kmph, but the reality is at around 19/20 mph.

It takes one hell of an effort to get the bike moving at a steady pace to the 30 mph point. It can be done, but I am assuming/pressuming there is a mechanical or electrical relation ship, to the turning speed of the motor, the cadence and the output speed, at which point the assistance is given.
I measured this on a local 10Km time trail course, its flat and good tarmac, so a good testing ground and my daily cycle to work route.

I am looking at my strava data found here.

https://www.strava.com/activities/1100555280
https://www.strava.com/activities/1100555280/segments/27135402947

The only thing for me to then do is purchase one of these devices... I don't really want to though. I don't really feel a need to bypass the sensor.

 

[Artstu]

So, I have tested this but only by moving the speed sensor to the pedal, and I can understand your thought process, but it seems not to work just as I thought it would. I was hoping that the assistance was endless. maybe it is with one of theses devices.

When I am pushing on, appropriate gear and when the assistance stops the dash shows 12 kmph, but the reality is at around 19/20 mph.

It takes one hell of an effort to get the bike moving at a steady pace to the 30 mph point. It can be done, but I am assuming/pressuming there is a mechanical or electrical relation ship, to the turning speed of the motor, the cadence and the output speed, at which point the assistance is given.
I measured this on a local 10Km time trail course, its flat and good tarmac, so a good testing ground and my daily cycle to work route.

I am looking at my strava data found here.

https://www.strava.com/activities/1100555280
https://www.strava.com/activities/1100555280/segments/27135402947

The only thing for me to then do is purchase one of these devices... I don't really want to though. I don't really feel a need to bypass the sensor.

Seems rather slow to me, but I have limited insight into your situation.

I'd be more impressed with something along these lines, especially given the race bike aspect to these E-Road bikes


ETA I see you have been very busy creating lots of segments there

 

[Izzyekerslike]

Just had a thought or two..
If you add a speedup device it could potentially make it go so fast as to be obvious, or even dangerous.. so,
Could this be controlled by the cadence ceiling? It would seem that these devices double the cutoff, and if so then the motor is always working up to 30MPH, but, by spinning up to 85 rpms or above at around 20mph would the assistance diminish to a negligible amount due to the power characteristic of the Yamaha motor?

An ex club rider who had fitted his bike with a dongle told me that he always preferred to push big gears rather than spin and now finds that the Giant Road- E with the Yamaha motor and suits him perfectly.
He mainly pedals in Eco mode and finds it feels very natural when "honking" Standard mode is only brought into play on long steep hills. Sport mode definitely requires a slower cadence and big gears and you should easily, with reasonable effort be able to cruise at 25mph.
His conclusion is the Giant Road-E with a device is a fantastic bike but benefits from a slower cadence.

 

[nemesis]

When i tested the Giant road-e it was awful even in full power mode it was as if it had no assistance so i bought a Bosch hybrid and turned it into a road bike,the Bosch CX motor has good assistance at all cadence.I have the weight down to 16kg.29mph on the flat is easy...(it`s for sale).