Gazelle C7 versus Raleigh Forge

My wife has always liked the dutch style bikes and I suggested she gets an electric bike to get round the lanes and steep hills of our new home on the east coast of Scotland. We visited a shop in Dundee and tried a few bikes and have narrowed it down to two main contenders. Gazelle C7 (£1400) looks very nice, seems well put together and my wife liked the stylish lines and the comfortable saddle. I slightly prefer the Raleigh Forge which is £200 cheaper , looks less classy but handled very well.

Would it be false economy to get the Forge when a couple of hundred quid will get what appears to be a very nice machine, mind you another £200 would get the C7+ with suspension and a few other goodies.

If anybody has tried one of these I'd be grateful for any help.

J

Gazelles are among the best made and finished bikes, as you have observed.

 

My one concern would be poke from the motor.

 

At one time, Dutch ebikes tended to have weakish motors.

 

I believe that's often no longer the case, but I would want to establish if the Gazelle you are thinking of has enough grunt.

 

If this is the right one, the specs just say front hub motor, which could do the job, but might not.

 

http://www.royaldutchgazelle.co.uk/collection-bikes/orange-c7-hybrid-f?type=ladies

My wife has always liked the dutch style bikes and I suggested she gets an electric bike to get round the lanes and steep hills of our new home on the east coast of Scotland. I'd be grateful for any help.

 

Hi Juhso and welcome.

 

Being a big fan of Dutch bikes and having some experience of the Gazelle brand, (still own one), I have no hesitation in saying they are beautiful machines to ride.

 

If there were no hills in the UK and wind did not exist, I'd actually recommend Gazelle/Batavus/Sparta and my own favourite, Koga. Unfortunately, we do have hills and wind so therefore I'd suggest you only look at models with strong motors such as the Bosch or Impulse drive bikes. That would push up the price somewhat but there are many other very capable machines from a variety of makers which, although not built quite so exquisitely perhaps as the Gazelle, will prove better performers round your local terrain. They may also be cheaper!

 

I really think you need to try several more bikes before committing yourself to the likes of the Gazelle and Raleigh models you mention. The Edinburgh Bicycle Co-op, for example, sell Giant, EBCO and Koga bikes so you might want to visit one of their stores in order to gain some degree of objectivity. If you don't mind distance buying, there are several suppliers among forum members, none of whom sell rubbish. They need to provide great after-sales service as forum members are a really fickle bunch, quick to whinge about any problems.

 

Tom

Judso....I agree much with what Old Tom says except his motor recommendation, certainly the Bosch crank drives are very refined drives but they are not the best choice for your hilly region and they tend to be expensive.

I assume you want a step thru bike?

The BPM and Panasonic hub motored bikes are very powerful hill climbers.

Our own Kudos Sonata incorporated all the hill climbing technology that we learnt from our performance range but with a nice step thru frame,hydraulic brakes for safety stopping,BPM powerful motor,30 speed gears,comfy saddle,Suntour suspension forksmore details on our website....www.kudoscycles.com

Appreciating it means a mail order sale,we send our bikes out for free but if not pleased with your purchase we collect at a cost of £25.00

Most think the styling of the Sonata is a true Unisex bike,price £1395.00

KudosDave

And Im with Tom vs KudosDave.

Mid motor crank drives use the gears to climb unbelievably well ie Bath

Without the burnout problems a really stalled hub motor can have on a long steep hill.

So Bosch, Panasonic crank, impulse or BBS 01 are all excelent hill climbing beasts.

Edited March 12, 201511 yr by D8ve

D8ve.....handbags at dawn,hehe !!!

I suppose the argument between hub and crank drive will always be ongoing on the forum,it's probably what historically you are familiar with that decides your preference.

The hub stall out problems were really slow speed/low torque performance from the earlier low powered hub motors,interestingly those motors are still fitted to many of the Dutch bikes (no hills),the torque comes in at a much lower road speed on the BPM motors such that anything above walking speed has no stall problems.

But I wonder how popular crank drive would be if not supported by Bosch,Bosch do have a massive investment incentive to keep their motor as the most popular,if their motor was a hub drive I don't suppose crank would be so popular.

The crank drive system together with torque sensor gives a very intuitive ride,it supports rider power without overcoming it,a very pleasant riding sensation for an experienced rider. But IMHO the Bafang BPM or Panasonic hub drive cannot be beaten for uphill grunt-remember the 2 bikes that were finalists in the Bristol challenge were both BPM/Panasonic hub drive....the latter was ridden by the KTM director who would have had a choice between Panasonic hub or Bosch crank.

i suppose one man's poison is another's sugar,the forum would be boring if we agreed on everything.

KudosDave

It's a complete falacy that crank motors climb better than hub-motors. I don't know why people keep implying that. It's very misleading. Which type of motor has won the world championships hill climb every year since it's been going? The Panasonic hub motor trounced the Bosch and Kakhoff crank motors in the mountain climb test that the German magazine did.

D8veh.....a gentleman never corrects another's spelling mistakes and ................elbows,but I think you meant 'won' not 'one'

Hehe (can't get out of that chinese suffix).

KudosDave

Thanks Dave. I'm doing too many things at the same time and losing concentration. Why isn't there a spellchecker for Tapatalk?

Juhso, of the two bikes you liked, did you try them up hills similar to the hills where you live? I take it you were at Electric Bikes Scotland? There are some hills in the streets near them.

 

As to which will suit your wife best, only she will know, you'll get opinions on here from the crank drive versus hub drive camps. It will all be based on our own experiences of these types.

 

The difference between flat roads, shallow hills and steep hills is vast. A lot depends on how fit your wife is and how much she can pedal or wants to pedal.

 

If either of your two choices can climb your local hills then buy the one she wants. buying the one YOU want is never the best idea.

 

Have a look at http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/the-great-scottish-ebike-hill-climb-challenge.18165/ for a slightly humorous post about my experience of crank versus hub drive bikes.

It's a complete falacy that crank motors climb better than hub-motors. I don't know why people keep implying that. It's very misleading. Which type of motor has won the world championships hill climb every year since it's been going? The Panasonic hub motor trounced the Bosch and Kakhoff crank motors in the mountain climb test that the German magazine did.

 

I suspect all the tests prove is that a more powerful motor will climb better than a less powerful one.

I suspect all the tests prove is that a more powerful motor will climb better than a less powerful one.

 

It makes me wonder about the legality of the Panasonic and some other motors. It's all very well stating that a motor meets the legal definition and affixing a label to 'prove' it.

 

As far as the layman is concerned, all joe public will know is that the Panasonic hub motor can propel a bike much more powerfully than other motors. It would be interesting to see independent, laboratory test results alongside other mainstream motors. Surely Panasonic didn't find some magic formula just when sales of their crank motors were taking a dive following Bosch's entry into the bike market and the Derby Cycles venture with Daum to produce what we now refer to as the Impulse Drive?

 

Tom

I suspect all the tests prove is that a more powerful motor will climb better than a less powerful one.

I think you're stating the obvious there Rob, that theres a rather strong correlation between hill-climbing and motor power. If you don't have power, you can't climb. It's simple physics - something to do with gravity and mass.

 

The Panasonic hub-motor proved to be a lot more efficient during that mountain climb too.

It makes me wonder about the legality of the Panasonic and some other motors. It's all very well stating that a motor meets the legal definition and affixing a label to 'prove' it.

 

You had better have a word with Colin about that. I dont think it would go down with him too well, implying that his bikes might be a bit illegal. I think he would rather top himself rather than sell an illegal bike.

Can I just toss in "unsprung weight", "weight distribution", "doesn't get so hot on steep hills" and you can't drive a Rohloff with a hub motor. Yes you can have a Rohloff on the back and a hub motor on the front but why not use the motor to drive the gears. Many reasons why a mid motor makes sense. Including ease of taking off the wheels (no wires to unplug).

 

I would really prefer a 250W motor in each wheel but that wouldn't be legal and no one makes a 125W hub motor...

 

My 0.02€

 

Tony

I suspect all the tests prove is that a more powerful motor will climb better than a less powerful one.

RobF

How very dare you bring basic engineering principals into a handbag fight.

A 1 watt mid drive will obviously beat any hub drive up a gentile slope never mind a real hill....

Can I just toss in "unsprung weight", "weight distribution", "doesn't get so hot on steep hills" and you can't drive a Rohloff with a hub motor.

 

I would really prefer a 250W motor in each wheel but that wouldn't be legal and no one makes a 125W hub motor...

 

My 0.02€

 

Tony

 

Unfortunately the law says one motor only. So unles you had a motor driving a hydraulic pump witch fed a pair of hubs it's a no no.

Or hub the rear and get a Cruze bike pedal drive to the front.

Can I just toss in "unsprung weight", "weight distribution", "doesn't get so hot on steep hills" and you can't drive a Rohloff with a hub motor. Yes you can have a Rohloff on the back and a hub motor on the front but why not use the motor to drive the gears. Many reasons why a mid motor makes sense. Including ease of taking off the wheels (no wires to unplug).

 

I would really prefer a 250W motor in each wheel but that wouldn't be legal and no one makes a 125W hub motor...

 

My 0.02€

 

Tony

 

Of course you can, but don't forget that you don't need a Rohlhoff when you have a hub-motor because the motor drives the wheel directly. It doesn't care what gear you're in.

One of the problems with crank drive is that the rider and the motor share the transmission system,whether it be dérailleur or hub gears. Really annoying these cyclists they want to turn the pedals and input power!!!

We (Kudos) and Bosch soon learnt that chains are under a lot of load,especially up steep hills....although the motors are rated at 250 watt nominal they can exhibit 600 watts under load,a rider standing on the pedal can also input 400-600 watts. Trying to change gear,especially downshifts on steep hills,resulted in horrible graunching noises from the dérailleur or damage to the Shimano hub. In fact Bosch and Shimano had a warranty argument about crank motors plus rider power exceeding the power handling capacity of the Shimano Nexus hub....the result was generation 2 Bosch motor which turns down the power and delays the return of the power when executing loaded gear changes,a clever technical solution but results in loss of momentum,not an ideal solution uphill.

I had a customer at our Manifold Trail event in Derbyshire (lovely countryside) who was sure his KTM-Macina Bosch was not working properly....what was happening was that he did not change down quick enough,he was always in too high a gear and ultimately the bike came to a stop,you do need a technique to riding a Bosch crank drive up steep hills.

We overcame the problem by going to the Nuvinci hub,see our bike Kudos Eiger-Nuvinci,but it is an expensive solution,some customers love the Nuvinci ,it accepts the power and allows quick and wide range gear changes.

As a result of the foregoing we decided that overal the hub drive eliminated all the power transmission problems of crank drive and with the emergence of the Bafang BPM motor it also offered low speed grunt,the torque spread of that motor is much wider,invaluable at low road speed.

At this moment I can see no reason to use any other motor type,it does the job most of us require very well and at fair cost. I suspect,in the future, that some clever engineer will combine the BPM motor with an auto changing Nuvinci type hub as one unit that will simplify the e-bike installation but that is not yet available.

I do think there is a 'head in the sand attitude' to hub drives,I have customers who will only ride crank drive bikes and must be Bosch motor,they will not consider even test riding a hub drive bike but those who try a BPM motored bike are often amazed at the ease of use and performance,not to mention the average £500 cost saving.

KudosDave

Edited March 12, 201511 yr by Kudoscycles

I’ve got Kalkhoff Impulse with a Nexus 8 and have no trouble changing down on hills. I just momentary stop pedalling, change down, and a fraction of a second soft pedalling to feed the power in again and that’s that. It all becomes one continuous action after a bit.

 

Mine is the Impulse 1 but I’ve ridden the Impulse 11 with its clever cut out to change gear, and on the ProConnect 9 with cassette I tried it changed quietly and smoothly without any decernable loss of momentum uphill. The first e bike I had was a Woosh CD and it was pretty easy to change down on a hill with that too by stopping the motor for a moment. It was a bit more tricky changing down on a very steep hill though as you could lose too much momentum. But that’s not a problem with my current bike or the latest Kalkhoffs with the auto cut out.

Yes, hub motors can perform on hills just as well as crank drives, but just beware of the lower powered hub motors that Dutch bikes usually still have. They perform poorly on hills.

 

One person I advised not to buy a Koga because of the hills in his area, finally gave in to it's superb quality and bought it anyway. He emailed me after the ride home from the shop on it, admitting being extremely disappointed with it's lack of ability on the hills of that route.

 

Bikes the Dutch make for themselves don't need to climb hills, and looks or quality alone don't climb well. For example, when the Sparta Ion was first launched it had no gears with it's weak rear hub direct drive motor, so when it appeared on sale here it was laughed off the market. So they added a derailleur, calling it the Sparta Ion M-gear, but the "M" must have stood for a Dutch mountain since it still couldn't climb with it's weak hub motor. Since then they claim they've upped it's torque, but it would still be trounced by a BPM/CST or the Panasonic and eZee hub motors.

.

Edited March 12, 201511 yr by flecc

I've tried the Impulse system with the change delay switch. It's a bit better than not having it, but has a long way to go before you can say it solves the problem.

 

For every problem, there's always something you can do to mitigate it, but it's always best not to have the problem in the first place.

I've tried the Impulse system with the change delay switch. It's a bit better than not having it, but has a long way to go before you can say it solves the problem.

 

For every problem, there's always something you can do to mitigate it, but it's always best not to have the problem in the first place.

 

Everything is a compromise in engineering as in anything else. Hub motors have different compromises.

But IMHO the Bafang BPM or Panasonic hub drive cannot be beaten for uphill grunt-remember the 2 bikes that were finalists in the Bristol challenge were both BPM/Panasonic hub drive....the latter was ridden by the KTM director who would have had a choice between Panasonic hub or Bosch crank.

KudosDave

You've never tried a bike with an eZee hub motor then:p

You've never tried a bike with an eZee hub motor then:p[

Had a quick look at the ezee site before responding. Is the hub motor in the ezee not a Bafang BPM? It does look similar dimensions.

My comments about BPM or Panasonic was because I am very familiar with those motor types,my comments could equally apply to the ezee motor and there are now other BPM similar motors on show at the last Shanghai show,its more about comparison with the crank drive motors or the early small diameter Dutch style motors.

I have a friend who sells a cheapie step thru bike into the Dutch market,he sells thousands per year,I asked him why he doesnt put some upgrades on his bikes,I mentioned hydraulic brakes or the BPM motor....dont be silly we have no hills in Holland a sewing machine motor would do,as long as it makes a noise, and anyway those extras are more than my profit !!!

KudosDave