Front Hub?

[Tommy C]

Hello again, everybody.

I've been dissuaded from the folding bike by Tony from Woosh. He says it's not suitable for my weight. That leaves the competition - one of which has a front hub motor. I'm slightly wary of a front drive bike; does anybody have anything to add to the other threads that discuss front drive? Is it a drastically different experience? Are there any inherent disadvantages with regard to stability or capacity on the incline? Maybe it has advantages too?

Again; any opinions are gratefully received. Dying to get going this summer...

 

[Nealh]

Not very stable if you like to ride hands free .
Front drive not as relaxed as rear drive, can be a bit twitchy from standing start (lot of torque esp if a BPM).

 

[Tommy C]

Not very stable if you like to ride hands free .

I believe I'll pass on that.

Front drive not as relaxed as rear drive, can be a bit twitchy from standing start (lot of torque esp if a BPM).

I see. I understand what twitchy means in this context - less stable from the off, particularly in the wet.

Does greater torque mean I get more assistance up a hill, or is that just increased drive from the off on the flat?

Thanks for the information, by the way.

 

[Nealh]

A high torque motor will climb hills well and will be like Mr Kipling's cakes, exceedingly good. Esp with a 17/20a controller.
The right motor/controller combo will make hills almost effort less.

 

[vfr400]

A rear motor is definitely better, but a front hub is not a deal-breaker, especially when you have 20" wheels on a folding bike. Thousands of people have them and are happy. Try one before condemning them.

 

[Tommy C]

A high torque motor will climb hills well and will be like Mr Kipling's cakes, exceedingly good. Esp with a 17/20a controller.
The right motor/controller combo will make hills almost effort less.

I see. Sorry, I don't think I made myself clear. When you said:

Front drive not as relaxed as rear drive, can be a bit twitchy from standing start (lot of torque esp if a BPM).

I thought the comment about a 'lot of torque' was was specifically with reference to front hub motors.

Addressing your comment again, does the location of the motor, on the front or on the rear, have any positive bearing on the motor's torque capability, and consequent capacity to take hills? Or does a rear hub motor take a hill as well as a front hub motor, in your experience?

Thanks again for the information.

 

[Tommy C]

A rear motor is definitely better

My instinct says that, too.

but a front hub is not a deal-breaker, especially when you have 20" wheels on a folding bike.

I agree with your point about the front hub not being a deal breaker.

The manufacturer said the folder was unsuitable for me which is a shame. That means I won't be able to get my bike on a bus and there's a hill between me and civilisation on each side of the village.

I'm not after any assistance on the flat, or for any further drive towards speed - I'm just wondering which mount will do best for some assistance for a heavy bike and a heavy rider on the gradient.

To pull or to push? Instinct says push (rear hub) but I don't really know.

Thousands of people have them and are happy. Try one before condemning them.

That's sound advice, unfortunately I don't think I can get to test one before buying.

 

[vfr400]

There,s no difference in torque between a front and rear motor, but a front one can't get enough traction because there's less weight on it. You see this when going up a steep hill, which is when you need high torque and when the motor gives it. The angle forces all the weight onto the back wheel and so it starts to lose grip and spin faster than you're travelling. It's not unsafe, but it means that you can't always get the motor's maximum power onto the road, especially when it's wet or there's gravel on the surface.

The other disadvantages are that front motors sound much louder than rear ones, and they make the steering less precise because of the additional mass in the wheel. You probably wouldn't notice the steering effect because it's off-set by the smaller 20" wheels that you get on these folding bikes.

 

[Tommy C]

There,s no difference in torque between a front and rear motor, but a front one can't get enough traction because there's less weight on it.

Right; I get it now. Rear drive is favourite for assistance on hills.

You see this when going up a steep hill, which is when you need high torque and when the motor gives it. The angle forces all the weight onto the back wheel and so it starts to lose grip and spin faster than you're travelling. It's not unsafe, but it means that you can't always get the motor's maximum power onto the road, especially when it's wet or there's gravel on the surface.

The other disadvantages are that front motors sound much louder than rear ones, and they make the steering less precise because of the additional mass in the wheel. You probably wouldn't notice the steering effect because it's off-set by the smaller 20" wheels that you get on these folding bikes.

The folder is a rear wheel drive with 26" wheels but the importer/manufacturer has already dissuaded me from that model on grounds of weight. One of his alternatives is a front wheel drive non-folder also with 26" wheels.

I think I might be best off with a more substantial folder that I can convert to power drive. Somebody gave me a link to a Montague Paratrooper which looks like a very good candidate for a real wheel conversion. Decent size wheels - carries a bit of weight - folds nicely.

Thanks for the clarification. I'm definitely learning from this board.

 

[vfr400]

Paratrooper is difficult to fit a battery to.

 

[Tommy C]

Paratrooper is difficult to fit a battery to.

Yeah. I've seen a few implementations - one has the battery on the downward post where a bottle might be mounted; another has it on a rack over the rear wheel.

There's one of these on ebay at the moment but it's souped up for 30mph, well worn and still quite expensive.

 

[vfr400]

A lot of guys get the idea to make their bikes go 30 mph. They convert them with those cheap 500w/1000w/1500w kits from EBay or Amazon, realise that what they created is terrible, then try and sell them on EBay. Avoid at all costs. Don't try and copy them. For 30mph, you need a strong frame, wide tyres and hydraulic disc brakes unless you're fed up with life.

 

[thirteen]

Whether it's sheer perversity or whatever, I prefer front hub motors.

It's like having two wheel drive, and reminds me of riding old Velosolex mopeds.

From your own physical description, added to my front hub preference, I would be looking at a Woosh Big Bear.

 

[Tommy C]

A lot of guys get the idea to make their bikes go 30 mph. They convert them with those cheap 500w/1000w/1500w kits from EBay or Amazon, realise that what they created is terrible, then try and sell them on EBay.

I think the Paratrooper on ebay at the moment is a pukka conversion using decent kit but I appreciate the warning about the cheap conversions.

Avoid at all costs. Don't try and copy them. For 30mph, you need a strong frame, wide tyres and hydraulic disc brakes unless you're fed up with life.

I ain't going to be buying a souped up off-roader for that very reason.

 

[Tommy C]

Whether it's sheer perversity or whatever, I prefer front hub motors.

It's like having two wheel drive, and reminds me of riding old Velosolex mopeds.

Had to look that one up. Yeah, I could fancy myself on one of those - Gauloises hanging out me bouche. Internet says they made an electric one in 2005 but then I think they finished.

From your own physical description, added to my front hub preference, I would be looking at a Woosh Big Bear.

That's interesting - you mean a front hub would be a good counter weight for a heavy rider. That makes sense. I like the look of the Big Bear; just slightly wary of having the drive on the steering wheel but thinking about it, I'm only going to be pootling along.

Thank you for the advice.

 

[Chainring]

My bike is front hub, and has done me well for over 12,000 miles. You have more choice over the type of transmission - hub gears, automatic etc.

 

[anotherkiwi]

Had to look that one up. Yeah, I could fancy myself on one of those - Gauloises hanging out me bouche. Internet says they made an electric one in 2005 but then I think they finished.

That's interesting - you mean a front hub would be a good counter weight for a heavy rider. That makes sense. I like the look of the Big Bear; just slightly wary of having the drive on the steering wheel but thinking about it, I'm only going to be pootling along.

Thank you for the advice.

https://solex.world/ the one you are thinking of had a rear hub motor (bafang) and a glove box where the motor used to be.

You don't want to ride one of those (Vélosolex) pedaling, trust me! It was a low powered moped, the pedals were only there for starting from the lights and really steep hills. The Velosolex is number one on my list of "the worst handling two wheel ride of my life".

If front wheel drive was a good idea Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki... would all be built that way. If two wheel drive was a good idea MotoGP bikes would all have it. Unfortunately the laws of physics still hold when it comes to two wheeled vehicles...

 

[Woosh]

If front wheel drive was a good idea Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki... would all be built that way.

there are plenty of cars built with front wheel drive.
The problems with the Velosolex are a)the large weight of the motor (and the fuel tank) compared to the rest of the bike and b) it's placed high above the wheel, far from the centre of gravity.
when the rider turns, he has to beat the the momentum inertia of that big lump 4ft away from the centre of gravity without a counterweight.
A front drive on an e-bike is the best solution when:
1. you have a rear rack battery. It's the same biomechanical solution for a tightrope walker. They balance the (total) weight over the centre of gravity.
2. you need to limit the load on the spokes

 

[Tommy C]

https://solex.world/ the one you are thinking of had a rear hub motor (bafang) and a glove box where the motor used to be.

So refined.

You don't want to ride one of those (Vélosolex) pedaling, trust me! It was a low powered moped, the pedals were only there for starting from the lights and really steep hills. The Velosolex is number one on my list of "the worst handling two wheel ride of my life".

Yes, it looks nutty to me.

If front wheel drive was a good idea Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki... would all be built that way. If two wheel drive was a good idea MotoGP bikes would all have it. Unfortunately the laws of physics still hold when it comes to two wheeled vehicles...

My instincts tally with your advice but I think this particular company (Woosh) have used a forward mounted motor on this particular model (Big Bear) to better distribute the weight on a heavy bike. Unfortunately they have sold out of the rear wheel alternative that I was considering. So I'm still looking for a bike.

I'm not sure I'm going to be able to find what I really want 'off the peg' so now I'm looking at converting a sturdy folder to power drive. Maybe a Montague Paratrooper or something from Change Bikes, which seem to be particularly sturdy.

 

[anotherkiwi]

there are plenty of cars built with front wheel drive.

How many have 2 wheels?

I'm from NZ a long time ago. Back then the country roads (and even some main roads on the west coast of the South Island!) were gravel and cars were rear wheel drive so you learnt to drift early or you died young in a horrible crash. When I came to Europe I drove my first ever front wheel drive car and it took a wee bit of adapting too. I even owned a very good front wheel drive car (winner of the Monte Carlo Rally) and got to drive that on gravel roads too in Sweden, a very different experience - harder to put sideways entering a corner but easier to control through the corner and exiting.

Would I ride a front wheel drive bicycle on a gravel road? Never! But I bet that some people do.