Food for thought

[GaRRy]

I'd already acknowledged that in my answer, but this Arai helmet isn't practical in warm weather for cycling, fuller enclosure and no ventilation holes. Using the Casco type answers that and the chance of getting prosecuted is as even nearer to zero as it is for all the other e-bike illegalities. As said, the police have better things to do than nitpick.

The only tangible effect is on any personal injury claim which would fail in the event of a head injury. That brings in the issues of why so many have accidents and whether one needs to wear a helmet at all. I'm not going there again except to remark I never wear a helmet (nor on motorbikes for many years) and have never been injured in any way whatsoever in my cycling/motorcycling lifetime, well over half of it living in London Boroughs.

Doubt anyone wanting to use a "S" class would be intending to do a lot of pedaling anyway

Do agree chances of getting caught are slim but it has been known for Police to check motorcycle helmets at side of road (I know over years Ive been pulled over a couple of times for this). I would of thought if you start zipping around at almost 30 mph on a ebike and not seen to be peddeling it would only be a matter of time till a copper gets curious.

So your the survivor that proves that helmets are unnessary, shame that graves are full of the failures

 

[flecc]

I expect the goverment will eventually apply common sense to its legislation with E-Bike, untill then. SOD THE LAW

Of course this is influenced by the EU much more than by our UK government. A genuine attempt was recently made by the European Parliament to remove the power limit from pedelecs which would have removed the most unnecessary part of the regulations. Unfortunately the EU commission didn't accept the move, but this was probably mostly due to the opposition from motor cycle industry bodies and cycling organisations, one protectionist, the other Luddite.

It does give longer term hope though, since the possibility has been considered. On the other hand, since it has been considered and rejected, it's unlikely to be considered again for quite a few years.

Our biggest problem is probably the complacent acceptance of the status quo by much of the dominant Northern European market. Our tiny UK market wishes for more power and independent throttles don't carry much weight when such very large numbers elsewhere appear to be entirely happy with things as they are.

 

[flecc]

Doubt anyone wanting to use a "S" class would be intending to do a lot of pedaling anyway

Do agree chances of getting caught are slim but it has been known for Police to check motorcycle helmets at side of road (I know over years Ive been pulled over a couple of times for this). I would of thought if you start zipping around at almost 30 mph on a ebike and not seen to be peddeling it would only be a matter of time till a copper gets curious.

I noticed before that you've been misunderstanding this market Garry. The S class bikes being sold here such as the Kalkhoff models are pedelecs. Like most continental pedelecs they have no throttles, the torque sensor being that function. Not pedalling isn't an option, and most buying these have been cycling enthusiasts who enjoy the pedalling aspects. The great majority sold have been with Panasonic unit powered 250 watt units, that alone restricting the speed they can assist to since it just isn't enough for 30 mph powering.

None are 30 mph powered bikes, the assist speed depending in part on the chosen gears. Typically the 9 speed derailleur models have been just over 20 mph assist, models with the SRAM DualDrive or the Rohloff hub have been 25 or 26 mph power assist. Those with the 350 watt units are very recent arrivals and I doubt any can assist to a genuine 30 mph since the legal limit in their country of origin is 45 kph (28 mph). I'm betting most will ride at about 25 mph or less most of the time, little different from that which club sport cyclists ride at so not particularly odd from a police point of view. All cycling speeds look slow from within a car!

So your the survivor that proves that helmets are unnessary, shame that graves are full of the failures

I didn't say that or anything like it Garry. It is possible that I can be injured, but by being prepared to take that risk I've enjoyed 66 years of helmet free cycling and 23 years of helmet free motorcycling.

Those graves are not full of failures, they are full of people who were not me. The fact that 54 years of motorcycling, 59 years of driving and 66 years of cycling has left me completely unmarked and uninjured and with a clear insurance claim record and clean licence is relevant. To say that is solely due to luck would be very stupid indeed.

As said, it can still happen, but in my case the record shows it is much less likely than for most.

 

[103Alex1]

Not pedalling isn't an option, and most buying these have been cycling enthusiasts who enjoy the pedalling aspects.

I'm betting most will ride at about 25 mph or less most of the time

They are often bought by people who ride for sport in mountainous areas. Conclusions should be pretty straightforward to draw.

I've enjoyed 66 years of helmet free cycling and 23 years of helmet free motorcycling.

Steppenwolf - Born To Be Wild - YouTube ...

 

[Scimitar]

However a Moped is legally restricted to 30 mph which is not exactly a lot more than 28 mph and has far superior brakes, lights, suspension and handling than any bicycle will ever have.

Once again, you type utter mince.

 

[GaRRy]

I noticed before that you've been misunderstanding this market Garry. The S class bikes being sold here such as the Kalkhoff models are pedelecs. Like most continental pedelecs they have no throttles, the torque sensor being that function. Not pedalling isn't an option, and most buying these have been cycling enthusiasts who enjoy the pedalling aspects. The great majority sold have been with Panasonic unit powered 250 watt units, that alone restricting the speed they can assist to since it just isn't enough for 30 mph powering.

None are 30 mph powered bikes, the assist speed depending in part on the chosen gears. Typically the 9 speed derailleur models have been just over 20 mph assist, models with the SRAM DualDrive or the Rohloff hub have been 25 or 26 mph power assist. Those with the 350 watt units are very recent arrivals and I doubt any can assist to a genuine 30 mph since the legal limit in their country of origin is 45 kph (28 mph). I'm betting most will ride at about 25 mph or less most of the time, little different from that which club sport cyclists ride at so not particularly odd from a police point of view. All cycling speeds look slow from within a car!



I didn't say that or anything like it Garry. It is possible that I can be injured, but by being prepared to take that risk I've enjoyed 66 years of helmet free cycling and 23 years of helmet free motorcycling.

Those graves are not full of failures, they are full of people who were not me. The fact that 54 years of motorcycling, 59 years of driving and 66 years of cycling has left me completely unmarked and uninjured and with a clear insurance claim record and clean licence is relevant. To say that is solely due to luck would be very stupid indeed.

As said, it can still happen, but in my case the record shows it is much less likely than for most.

oops yes you are correct about the pedalling my bad. However as in UK we also want to keep throttles my comments are still pretty valid. As for current real speeds that I accept however evidence over years shows that manufacturers will strive to get a competitive advantage and will push to get as close to this limit as they can as speed sells (look at Motorbike market for evidence of this although it does look like finally we have realised its not all that matters), limit is also +10% so as with normal pedelecs they will make use of this extra 10% taking them up to 30. may not happen tomorrow but will happen. Im also sure that most will ride at 25mph or less just like most people who own a powerful motor bike ride it at 30 mph ish around town but it only takes a few idiots to increase the accident statistics.

As for my last comment I know you never said that and it was meant (I guess in a slightly sick way) to be in part humorous and Im certainly not putting it down to pure luck. But just like the 100 year old that has smoked and drunk all his life you are one of the exceptions that proves the rule. If it far easier for cyclists to zoom around at higher speeds they will do so and the accidents rates will go up and then someone will pick up on this and we will all as usual suffer the consequences.

PS. Just for the record I am not actually against "S" class as such just believe that there is no need for it as there are already perfectly valid alternatives that already exist and to me the only reason people want it is to get around current legislation (license,CBT,Tax,Insurance) especially as such a bike will certainly not be cheaper than the current alternatives.

 

[GaRRy]

Once again, you type utter mince.

Ok Im being excessive in saying ANY bicycle (Im pretty certain some of the real expensive down hill bikes that are not far of motorcross bikes with out engines would be better) . But do you really beleive that a typical road bike (say up to £2-£3000) has better brakes, lights,suspension and handling than a typical moped ?

 

[Jeremy]

Ok Im being excessive in saying ANY bicycle (Im pretty certain some of the real expensive down hill bikes that are not far of motorcross bikes with out engines would be better) . But do you really beleive that a typical road bike (say up to £2-£3000) has better brakes, lights,suspension and handling than a typical moped ?

Once I would have said that most mopeds had better brakes etc than most bikes, but now I'm not so sure. The vast majority of mopeds on our roads today are rather cheap and nasty Chinese made scooter things. They don't handle at all well and being small wheeled don't have particularly good stopping power (it's far too easy to lock the small wheels). I'd hazard a guess that a decent bike may well have better handling and stopping power than a typical moped now, although I would hope that some of the "proper" mopeds might be better.

 

[SRS]

PS. Just for the record I am not actually against "S" class as such just believe that there is no need for it as there are already perfectly valid alternatives that already exist and to me the only reason people want it is to get around current legislation (license,CBT,Tax,Insurance) especially as such a bike will certainly not be cheaper than the current alternatives.

Speaking for myself and family, living on an ocean going sail boat.

Unlike a moped which would be impossible to lift on board and or dingy to the shore, the "S" class bikes would be perfect.

Allowing a little extra pace when cycling. Cycling being the word as I personally would not wish to have the need not to add human power.

The extra pace over a standard e-bike allowing greater distances to be travelled particularly when at anchor and one has time limitations set by the rotation of the earth. Means a bit more time to collect the shopping.

Might even be enjoyable as well. I have no wish to add a licence plate out of all proportion to the size of the machine. Mirrors, heavy lights etc etc.

I would however be happy to pay for third party insurance. Road tax? originally intended to pay for wear and tear of the road. Not sure a cycle would add any significant wear to the road systems.

When at work and not away, the "S" class system when added to my human power would enable me to get to work just as quick as my motorbike. It would get me out in the air and add to my fitness unlike an motorbike.

So, as you can see, I am not looking to get around any legislation, just wishing for a system with the flexibility that will allow alternative and sustainable methods of transport to blossom.

 

[amigafan2003]

Road tax? originally intended to pay for wear and tear of the road. Not sure a cycle would add any significant wear to the road systems.

Well, electric cycles would be zero rated anyway - just like electric cars and electric motorbikes.

 

[GaRRy]

When at work and not away, the "S" class system when added to my human power would enable me to get to work just as quick as my motorbike.

Everything you say seems perfectly reasonable until you say this. This is precisely my argument you want a vehicle as a fast a motorbike but with out all the restrictions that come with it (License,Helmet,insurance,MOT etc).

Never going to happen as its just like asking for most of the rules and regulations on mopeds to be scrapped.

 

[SRS]

Everything you say seems perfectly reasonable until you say this. This is precisely my argument you want a vehicle as a fast a motorbike but with out all the restrictions that come with it (License,Helmet,insurance,MOT etc).

Never going to happen as its just like asking for most of the rules and regulations on mopeds to be scrapped.

Garry

Take your point but it can currently take me 40 minutes to travel 12 miles to work on motorcycle. Traffic and roadworks.

Do not need to cycle as fast as a motorbike, just get to work quicker than traffic allows me to on a motorcycle. By cycle I can use a couple of private roads across loch gates and leave the traffic and motorbike at home.

At end of day, if I could average' legally 20mph on cycle, be the wind in my face or not, I would be happy.

Anyway, like to say, "S" class unlikely to be acceptable to the powers that be, hence the reason I shall be looking at legal BH Emotion cycles on Saturday.

 

[flecc]

PS. Just for the record I am not actually against "S" class as such just believe that there is no need for it as there are already perfectly valid alternatives that already exist and to me the only reason people want it is to get around current legislation (license,CBT,Tax,Insurance) especially as such a bike will certainly not be cheaper than the current alternatives.

That's certainly true for some, though mainly those who create throttle controlled high-powered, high-speed e-bikes for themselves and are happy to say they want the bike to handle hills for them without too much of their own input. Obviously they are really customers for either a moped or light motorbike (better), but just want to dodge the bureaucracy. Indeed some post to this effect.

There is a niche for the S class assisted pedelec though. Those who genuinely enjoy cycling and find 15 mph restriction with higher speeds above that impeded by weight and/or drag factors would reasonably like to return to the 20/25 mph on the flat that is commonplace for club and road sport cyclists. For myself I would find the accompanying loss of use of cyclepaths, shared use paths and bridleways too great to make an S class pedelec worthwhile, since use of those is commonly prevented at all times by law. There's no provision for a cut-off button or other slower use of those facilities and the legal S class number plate is a giveaway for illegal use.

 

[amigafan2003]

I've never hidden the fact that I want to use the promenade cycle route to commute to work - 7 miles of car free bliss. I'm not going to get away with using a motorbike on that route.

However I do have to temper that with the fact that I don't wizz in and out of pedestrians at 25mph, often slowing down below the pedelec legal limit. In fact I'm often going slower (and taking more care) than normal bikes!

But at 8am or in the winter when there are no peds about, it a great route to zip along. In fact, over the last few weeks the only other route users I've seen are a pair of police cyclists whom I give a cheery wave to most evenings.

 

[flecc]

I've never hidden the fact that I want to use the promenade cycle route to commute to work - 7 miles of car free bliss. I'm not going to get away with using a motorbike on that route.

That would certainly be a problem with an S class number plate on the rear if we had this class officially recognised by our government.

 

[amigafan2003]

That would certainly be a problem with an S class number plate on the rear if we had this class officially recognised by our government.

Precisely - which is why an S class holds no attraction to me - a point you made earlier.

Simple fact is there is no legal form of transport that meets my requirements and acceptable risk profile, and there likely never will be.

I am building a high powered ebike that I will msva as a light motorcycle but that's just for giggles and the challenge of doing so rather than to meet a secific requirement. It will probably be broken up once complete.

 

[carpetbagger]

I am building a high powered ebike that I will msva as a light motorcycle but that's just for giggles and the challenge of doing so rather than to meet a secific requirement. It will probably be broken up once complete.

'yes officer,but i was only on the prom to take my bike to the breakers yard'

 

[amigafan2003]

'yes officer,but i was only on the prom to take my bike to the breakers yard'

Well, I wouldn't ride it on the ped/cycle route as it'd be plated and quite clear to everyone a light motorcycle, not an ebike.

 

[eddieo]

We are blessed indeed brethren to have a living saint in our midst

 

[amigafan2003]

We are blessed indeed brethren to have a living saint in our midst

So I've been told before, cheers

Don't get me wrong, it's not that I wouldn't ride it there due to some misguided reverence of the law - it's simply because I'd get caught! Those two coppers I wave "evening" to most evening probably wouldn't be very impressed