Food for thought

[Old_Dave]

And if it isn't legal ... then the matter of how much not legal becomes kinda unimportant.

The number of legal bike owners on this fine forum is suprisingly small

 

[Jeremy]

The number of legal bike owners on this fine forum is suprisingly small

I strongly suspect that you are absolutely right.............

 

[SRS]

Jeremy

You have many valid points, accepted.

1) Either get the motor (as fitted to the particular bike with that bikes controller and battery) tested by an accredited test house to the old BS 1727: 1971, or:

2) Get the completed e-bike Type Approved to EN19154 by an accredited test house.

Your average guy in the street, including myself building a Kit Bike is not going to be interested in the above.

The law as is stand does need some serious attention.

Much the same as the Protection of Badgers Act 1992. It now appears that is ok, when it suits to mass murder badgers.
Not so long ago, one could not even dig up the garden if badgers were present.

I shall take the law surrounding e-bikes with a pinch of salt until things get seriously reviewed.

Having said that, I will ensure that my cycle does not power itself above 15.5mph anywhere other that private land.

What I cannot understand is the limit on power. 200w in the UK. Why?

500w would give considerable improvement when climbing hills or towing a trailer. The speed can still be limited as required. The motor power has no relevance that I can see.

As far as the Germans, yes, I am aware that their 28mph cycles are regulated but at least people have the option. We do not. Again why?

Various posts suggest that these sort of speeds warrant a motorcycle status. Rubbish, a motorcycle is a completely different beast. Many having a cruising speed well in excess of 100mph.

Not the same as an electric cycle with less power than the average hover mower. Hmm.

What we require is a government body, talking to the likes of the people on this forum to see what really is required to move people away from fossil fuels.

 

[jazper53]

I understand my bike with a 250 watt motor, and independent throttle is illegal. They would have to drag me off to jail before i will surrender my throttle. I really do not concern myself with the petty regulations made by mindless bureaucrats. It about time they have a law that states, for every new law that is passed into statute, the must remove three old laws. TO MANY F..ING LAWS

 

[neptune]

So the law does not distinguish between slightly illegal and very illegal. For the average guy with the sub £1,00 bike, full legality is unlikely to be an option. I have always believed that you might as well be hanged for a sheep as for a lamb.
So suddenly, I feel less guilty about my ten Kilowatt, 85 MPH machine, even on cycle paths...

 

[Jeremy]

When the UK statute allowing electric bikes was first mooted there was no practically legislation elsewhere to base it on. 200W was selected presumably because that was felt to be "about right". It's probably reasonable, as it's 200W motor output power, which will be around 250W or more motor input power.

The major difference between the BS1727 :1971 motor test (and battery voltage test) and the whole bike testing that's done under EN15194 is that you are actually allowed a much more powerful motor under one of the "acceptable means of compliance" given in EN15194. The acceleration test allows a motor power of well over 250W to be compliant, a quirk that many manufacturers have taken advantage of.

My own personal view is that, given that most ebikes in the UK are probably illegal, I'm not going to worry too much about mine. The only concerns I have are that several manufacturers are supplying bikes that are significantly more powerful than the law would allow, and claiming that these are legal as long as they are only used off road when in high power mode.

That is patently untrue and as off road use may be more likely to result in damage or injury I can't help but feel some of these manufacturers are exposing themselves to some potentially big legal risks. If a bike is ridden off road, pretty much anywhere in the UK, then it has to comply with the definition of a bicycle. If it's an unregistered motor vehicle, with no insurance and a possibly unlicensed rider (as an ebike in "high power mode" is) then it's illegal to use it anywhere where the public have access (which is pretty much everywhere except, perhaps, your back garden).

 

[Jeremy]

I understand my bike with a 250 watt motor, and independent throttle is illegal. They would have to drag me off to jail before i will surrender my throttle. I really do not concern myself with the petty regulations made by mindless bureaucrats. It about time they have a law that states, for every new law that is passed into statute, the must remove three old laws. TO MANY F..ING LAWS

It could be legal. It depends very much on whether or not it actually complies with the law. Just because a motor has a 250W sticker doesn't mean it has an output of 250W, which is why the UK regs require that the motor output be tested to a British Standard. For example, one of my motors has a label that reads "180W, 24V, 9.9A, 260rpm", which is plainly nonsense, as I've had it running on one of my bikes and it quite happily whizzes along at 25mph or so for hours on end, a speed that I know needs around 450 to 500W.

BTW, they do remove a lot of old statutes every year. There is a group that does this all the time to try and prune out all the useless ones.

 

[flecc]

As far as the Germans, yes, I am aware that their 28mph cycles are regulated but at least people have the option. We do not. Again why?

As I've explained above, yes we do have that option. Effectively the only extra we have is that the bike must carry a tax disc (VED), but since the VED is zero rated that costs nothing. It just means attaching a tax disc holder on the left of the bike where it can be seen, hardly a hardship.

What we require is a government body, talking to the likes of the people on this forum to see what really is required to move people away from fossil fuels.

THe DfT did invite representations from the public including this forum regarding the current re-framing of the electric assisted bike law, and many members did make submissions. Hopefully it won't be too long before we see the outcome, but I'm sure the main guiding principle they'll use is the existing EU pedelec law.

 

[jazper53]

BTW, they do remove a lot of old statutes every year. There is a group that does this all the time to try and prune out all the useless ones.

I wonder what the ratio is for new laws added against the removal of old laws ? I think u can be still be arrested for a vagrancy if u do not have more than threepence in your pocket .

 

[flecc]

When the UK statute allowing electric bikes was first mooted there was no practically legislation elsewhere to base it on. 200W was selected presumably because that was felt to be "about right".

I've always assumed that the 200 watt figure relates to the cycling ability of an average person, the law enabling that to be matched primarily for those who fall short of that ability. Here are the NASA ability figures for a reasonably fit male cyclist's output for example:

300 watts for about 10 minutes continuous.
200 watts for about 1 hour continuous.
100 watts for about 5 hours continuous.

The middle figure would seem practical for an SLA battery electric bike in 1983 when the law was set.

 

[Jeremy]

As I've explained above, yes we do have that option. Effectively the only extra we have is that the bike must carry a tax disc (VED), but since the VED is zero rated that costs nothing. It just means attaching a tax disc holder on the left of the bike where it can be seen, hardly a hardship.

And as someone who's done this I can say that it wasn't too hard or expensive, just a bit bureaucratically painful, to get a road legal electric moped. I didn't even need to take it for any testing or inspections. I do need to insure it and need a licence to ride it but VED, as flecc says, is zero. Converting a small moped has to be the very easiest way to get a road legal fast ebike here. You can pick them up for next to nothing secondhand and they aren't much harder to work on than a bike. Even if you built a high speed bicycle from scratch to meet the moped regs then the only thing different would be the need for an MSVA test (or whatever they are calling it this year).

THe DfT did invite representations from the public including this forum regarding the current re-framing of the electric assisted bike law, and many members did make submissions. Hopefully it won't be too long before we see the outcome, but I'm sure the main guiding principle they'll use is the existing EU pedelec law.

Having been watching this closely I strongly suspect that you're right, flecc, the new UK ebike law will almost certainly be near-identical to the EU regulations. I'm hopeful they may relent and allow a throttle, but I'm not holding out much hope on it.

 

[Jeremy]

I've always assumed that the 200 watt figure relates to the cycling ability of an average person, the law enabling that to be matched primarily for those who fall short of that ability. Here are the NASA ability figures for a reasonably fit male cyclist's output for example:

300 watts for about 10 minutes continuous.
200 watts for about 1 hour continuous.
100 watts for about 5 hours continuous.

The middle figure would seem practical for an SLA battery electric bike in 1983 when the law was set.

Sounds reasonable to me. They didn't have a lot to go on in terms of legislation in other countries back then so perhaps just used a figure they felt was about right for the technology of the day.

 

[flecc]

I omitted to mention that some suppliers of the German high speed bikes will include the EU type approval certificate with them, 50cycles with the Kalkhoff S class bikes for example, which also have the attachment point for the rear number plate already in place.

 

[Jeremy]

I wonder what the ratio is for new laws added against the removal of old laws ? I think u can be still be arrested for a vagrancy if u do not have more than threepence in your pocket .

Quite reasonable. There is a Statute Law (Repeals) Act every 4 to 6 years on average and each one usually repeals around 200 to 300 old statutes that are, in the view of the committee "spent, obsolete, unnecessary or otherwise not now of practical utility". As parliament only adds a few dozen new Statutory Instruments each year I suspect we may be killing them off faster than we are creating new ones.

 

[Jeremy]

I omitted to mention that some suppliers of the German high speed bikes will include the EU type approval certificate with them, 50cycles with the Kalkhoff S class bikes for example, which also have the attachment point for the rear number plate already in place.

In that case it makes getting them legal here an absolute doddle, just a question of registering it (with a copy of the Type Approval certificate), paying the fee, fitting the plates and then insuring it. The costs would be minimal, less than those for insuring, taxing etc a moped.

 

[flecc]

That's what I feel Jeremy, in effect we are not really disadvantaged in comparison with the Germans.

I do think that for many the loss of use of cyclepaths, bridleways and many Sustrans routes would be a problem, but again no different from Germany.

 

[Jeremy]

That's what I feel Jeremy, in effect we are not really disadvantaged in comparison with the Germans.

I do think that for many the loss of use of cyclepaths, bridleways and many Sustrans routes would be a problem, but again no different from Germany.

TBH I'd not want to see fast ebikes on cycle paths, especially shared use paths. I frequently ride a shared use cycle route in my local city and it's often quite busy, with more than the occasional slightly gormless pedestrian who decides it's OK to wander into the cycle lane without looking. The idea of allowing fast bikes on these routes would likely kill them off, as I strongly suspect they'd end up reverting to footpaths if there were a few accidents.

 

[flecc]

I agree, even 15 mph is often too fast on many cyclepaths where pedestrians and often dogs are present. One partial safeguard with these S class bikes if properly registered is the presence of the rear number plate, which would make their illegality when on cyclepaths very obvious so easily detectable for action.

 

[eHomer]

I'm taking the core question of this thread as being whether we think that current legislation on electric bikes in the UK is too restrictive.

I've been tinkering with electric bikes for ten years now, seeking out clean, quiet and practical transportation as cheaply as possible.

It's been a long quest, and I've spent (wasted) a lot of money on bikes that were not practical for the same two basic reasons.

- the battery technology, and the very restrictive UK legislation.


The battery technology has now improved dramatically. Lithium has a much more practical power to weight ratio and longevity of cell life.


My first bikes had heavy steel frames and SLA batteries. Fully road legal. They had a max speed of 12-15 mph, an effective range of about 10 miles, and were then too heavy to pedal comfortably when the batteries went flat.

I then tried a fully road legal 48v electric scooter with a 750watt motor and four 55amp 12v SLA batteries that took the total weight up to about 150 kilograms. The road tax was free (saving £15 then), but the annual MOT was £30, and the cheapest TPFT insurance was £85. The range was about 25 miles, and it had a top speed of 30mph.

I didn't keep it very long because the range was insufficient and it weighed more than my 125cc motorcycle, (and had almost the same standing costs).

I now have two electric bikes.

A fully road legal 250w 36v built from a kit on a very lightweight German full suspension bike, with two 10ah lithium batteries weighing 3.5kg each. It has a maximum speed of 15 mph, and can be easily pedalled with the 7 speed sachs hub gear. The whole bike weighs just on 30kgs with batteries, has no standing fees and has an easy range of 50 miles.

My other electric bike is my newly built 1000w 48v rear motor fitted to a very upmarket "Giant" lightweight bike with 6" suspension travel and hydraulic disc brakes. Running that on the same 36v batteries, it has a top speed of 25mph and a range of about 15 miles. The handling characteristics and braking are superb, and in no way is it practically overpowered. It is far safer and more practical than my previous road legal 30mph electric scooter, but would be very difficult and expensive to register (V5c, single vehicle approval test, etc.).

I also have a "compromise" powered bike. A Bernardi Buzz 35cc engine on a Dawes frame. Fully road legal, V5c, number plates, tax (£16) insurance (£95) and mot (£30). I think that maybe shows that if higher powered electric bikes were made legal, the legal running costs would be comparable to a moped.



It's a complicated issue.

On the one hand, the 15mph max speed and 250w max power limit on hill climbing makes "free" road legal electric bikes very unattractive to serious commuters.

But on the other hand, the multitude of youtube clips showing 1000w bikes ridden by morons doing 30mph along pavements and footpaths, weaving between pedestrians is not doing us any favours either.

 

[Jeremy]

I'm taking the core question of this thread as being whether we think that current legislation on electric bikes in the UK is too restrictive.

Good stance to take. My view is that the restriction isn't so much some of the aims behind the legislation, but the way they have been applied. Clearly there was a desire to ensure that an electric bike couldn't cause significantly greater risk to the rider or other road users than a pedal bike. The restriction on maximum power assisted speed and maximum bike weight (in the UK regulations) were clearly designed to ensure that the kinetic energy available wouldn't be greater than that from something like a fairly fast moving butchers bike. That makes a lot of sense if electric bikes are going to share pedestrian paths.

They then decided to go one step further, though, and add a difficult and costly to assess motor power requirement. This seems pointless, as having defined the parameters that govern risk there seems no merit in adding complexity like this to the regulation. I would hazard a guess that this was done because, at the time when the UK spearheaded electric bike regulation they were also restricting the power of mopeds. This followed a spate of problems with sub-50cc sports mopeds that were capable of 50 to 60mph. They had already addressed the fast moped problem by implementing a power restriction, so perhaps they felt (at the time) that they needed to do the same with electric bikes. I believe that other countries tended to follow the UK lead on this and ultimately that may be why there is a supposed power limit in the EU regulations.

I now have two electric bikes.

A fully road legal 250w 36v built from a kit on a very lightweight German full suspension bike, with two 10ah lithium batteries weighing 3.5kg each. It has a maximum speed of 15 mph, and can be easily pedalled with the 7 speed sachs hub gear. The whole bike weighs just on 30kgs with batteries, has no standing fees and has an easy range of 50 miles.

I hate to burst your bubble, but unless you have had that bike tested and approved to one or other of the applicable sets of regulations, then it's as illegal as the other one!

My other electric bike is my newly built 1000w 48v rear motor fitted to a very upmarket "Giant" lightweight bike with 6" suspension travel and hydraulic disc brakes. Running that on the same 36v batteries, it has a top speed of 25mph and a range of about 15 miles. The handling characteristics and braking are superb, and in no way is it practically overpowered. It is far safer and more practical than my previous road legal 30mph electric scooter, but would be very difficult and expensive to register (V5c, single vehicle approval test, etc.).

It might not be as difficult as you think to get this registered as a moped. The moped test requirements are quite modest, the hardest part will be fitting beading etc around the sharp edges in all probability. It isn't that costly either and the Test Centre staff tend to be pretty helpful when presenting something slightly unusual for test.