Folding - with least leg work required - to get around lake district with photography gear

[Pete_]

Hi guys,
I am a keen cyclist (have been for many years) maintained my own road bikes, so I understand the 'steam powered' variety. As a photographer I'm looking for something to get up steep, long hills whilst carrying a backpack (or having saddle bags) with around 10kg of camera gear, clothing, food etc. What I don't want is a work-out as I'll be wearing normal casual clothing. Am I right to think cadence sensor bikes would be better for avoiding getting sweaty? If I can get up to up to 20 miles away from wherever I'm parked in the Lakes and Peak District without feeling like I'm working out then that would be great. Is there a suitable folding bike that I could get in the back of a medium sized hatchback that is capable of what I need (may get 2 of them)? I already have an electric mountain bike with 500w battery and about 80 or 90nm of torque on a torque sensor and I know that whilst there's lots of available assistance it wouldn't be suitable for my needs (normal day clothing without getting sweaty) - it's like a horse, so it wouldn't go in the car either!
I'm probably expecting way too much, but asking just in case such a machine exists...
Cheers,
Pete.

 

[Woosh]

any folding bike with cadence sensor can do that, you pedal as much or as little as you like.
woosh Rambletta is one of them:

The Rambletta | Powerful Foldable Electric Bikes with 10.4AH semi-hidden battery from Woosh

The Woosh Rambletta is the most recent 20kg folding bike from Woosh, with a large 36V * 10.4AH semi-hidden battery, very easy to stowaway, perfect for camping / caravanning.

wooshbikes.co.uk

 

[sjpt]

You'll need a pretty powerful motor to get up the hills without any push from you even with cadence sensor, and a big battery to do 20 miles each way in the hills while using that level of assist.

 

[Pete_]

You'll need a pretty powerful motor to get up the hills without any push from you even with cadence sensor, and a big battery to do 20 miles each way in the hills while using that level of assist.

Yes - I can see already that it will be a compromise - accept fewer miles (perhaps 20 in total in hilly places) and some extra effort from me. The more I look into this the more 'holes' in my ideal start to appear. In the end I'll probably just have to accept getting a little sweaty on big hills. If I can get a compact bike then it'll be better for transport and taking in cafes (asking/paying a fee for some extra charge for the battery is always an option too). The Brompton is looking really good for portability - that bike packs so small that in a worst case scenario I can get it on a bus or in a taxi...

 

[Nealh]

Fit a Woosh kit with a high torque hub motor or any high torque hub, use PAS 3 - 5 level and a low gear so not to stall the gearing and you will find you will find the climb fairly effortless.

 

[ElectricJoe]

You'll need a pretty powerful motor to get up the hills without any push from you even with cadence sensor, and a big battery to do 20 miles each way in the hills while using that level of assist.

Is it as bad as that? Eg if it's 20 miles of upward hills on the way out, then it's 20 miles downhill coming back, so 20miles that can cope with mostly upwards is good enough, or if it's 10 miles up 10 miles down outward, it's still only 20 miles up in total.
Would a suitably geared bike For going uphill help to retain battery? Bigger chain wheel than standard? I'm sure I've seen that discussed on a Brompton website?a

 

[sjpt]

Look at https://www.bosch-ebike.com/en/service/range-assistant/. (It's generally about right for other bikes too with appropriate interpretation)

If you want to get up hills with almost no effort you need the equivalent of turbo mode. Set it to turbo and hilly and 500wh battery and it shows 36 miles. Sport just gets you your 40 miles; with their lowest power motor. It's allowing for the fact that hills go down as well as up. Tour gives over 50 miles, but tour is with you doing half the work.

Changing gearing might help a little, but basically 20 miles in hilly country is a lot of climb; and a given amount of climb is a given amount of energy. If you want to take all that energy from the battery rather than from you that's a lot of battery. (I must do the calculations some time)

 

[sjpt]

Just did some calculations. 400wh will do 1500m of climb with 100kg total weight. That's just the energy for that height gain, not allowing anything for motor and battery inefficiency, rolling resistance, wind resistance, etc. A random 40 mile round trip out of Sheffield to the peaks (but taking in Man Tor so not that random) showed me 986m height gain (Google maps) in 40 miles.

Sheffield to 149 Trafalgar St

www.google.com

bicycle hill climb calculations
kg=100 // weight
m = 100 // height
joules = 9.8*kg*m // 98000
whPerJ = 2.7778e-4
wh = joules*whPerJ // hw used for 100 m climb
batt=400 // battery capacity wh
toth = batt/hw*m // tot height gain you get with 400wh 1469

 

[Atlav4]

Route planning in the lakes is very very important either hiking or cycling. As stated for every up in mtrs you generally, on a circular, descend same mtrs. Try routes that only include one of the big three Hardknot, Wrynose or Honister. 30 miles range in the lakes, covers a very large proportion of the total area of the national park.

 

[boyabouttown]

When i click the map link it shows the journey takes 4 minutes, what bike you got.

 

[ElectricJoe]

Just did some calculations. 400wh will do 1500m of climb with 100kg total weight. That's just the energy for that height gain, not allowing anything for motor and battery inefficiency, rolling resistance, wind resistance, etc. A random 40 mile round trip out of Sheffield to the peaks (but taking in Man Tor so not that random) showed me 986m height gain (Google maps) in 40 miles.

Sheffield to 149 Trafalgar St

www.google.com

bicycle hill climb calculations
kg=100 // weight
m = 100 // height
joules = 9.8*kg*m // 98000
whPerJ = 2.7778e-4
wh = joules*whPerJ // hw used for 100 m climb
batt=400 // battery capacity wh
toth = batt/hw*m // tot height gain you get with 400wh 1469

the fits really well with the guy on YouTube who cycles up Mt Ventoux on an electric Brompton (conversion), looking at the details it seems he uses about 300wh battery (two 180wh batteries but I don't think uses all of second one) to climb 5000ft which is about 1500 metres Id guess. And probably him and Brompton weighs a bit less than 100kg. Plus of course no doubt he'll have been putting some effort in himself.

 

[Pete_]

Thank you for the replies There's compromise in everything and the one USP of the 'Brompton' I can see is it can go anywhere without fear of not being able to hop on a bus, get in a taxi or even walk in a cafe with it. Having been researching for a while now I think it's the model that will work best. It will go in the back of the car really easily (as would 2 of them for my wife and I). I also see that I can get a 44 tooth front ring instead of the 52 which would make a big difference in the hills. As long as I can travel on the flat at up to 20mph (my leg power) then I'm going to be happy. I want to observe the surroundings and enjoy the day from a photographer's perspective - so general speed or a desire to put in a great time doing a 'lap of the Lakes' is a non-issue. The largest bag on the Brompton that would also hold my gear (some of it) as well as the battery, is pretty wide so I'm sure the drag penalty will be huge, another reason to wish to ride at a comfortable pace - if you double the speed then it's quadruple the drag.
I messaged Brompton yesterday - they can't keep up with orders and have had to streamline the assembly/order process. This means I can't custom order. Once the world goes back to work hopefully things will settle down - I'm in no rush.

 

[Pete_]

Just did some calculations. 400wh will do 1500m of climb with 100kg total weight. That's just the energy for that height gain, not allowing anything for motor and battery inefficiency, rolling resistance, wind resistance, etc. A random 40 mile round trip out of Sheffield to the peaks (but taking in Man Tor so not that random) showed me 986m height gain (Google maps) in 40 miles.

Sheffield to 149 Trafalgar St

www.google.com

bicycle hill climb calculations
kg=100 // weight
m = 100 // height
joules = 9.8*kg*m // 98000
whPerJ = 2.7778e-4
wh = joules*whPerJ // hw used for 100 m climb
batt=400 // battery capacity wh
toth = batt/hw*m // tot height gain you get with 400wh 1469

That's a lovely route around Edale - been there and Padley Gorge and way out south-west to 'The Roaches' on a few occasions.

 

[Woosh]

the electric Brompton has 8.5AH battery, hardly enough for your 40 miles even when the road is flat. Any bike with torque sensor requires much more leg work on hills than on flat roads.
If you are going for an electric Brompton, you should consider my Brompton kit. It has 13AH battery and a pedal sensor instead of torque sensor.
https://wooshbikes.co.uk/?hubkits#q70kit

 

[Warwick]

I think the factory electric Brompton uses the front rack mount for the battery and associated gubbins, so you may not be able to add the large bag you mention. The Swytch conversion mounts the gear on the bars. My Brompton, which I've just sold, fits easily into the rear of my small Fiat Panda, although two wouldn't fit. If budget is not a problem, a shop in Glasgow https://www.kinetics-online.co.uk/folding-bikes/brompton/ that sells modified Bromptons - at a price!

 

[Pete_]

the electric Brompton has 8.5AH battery, hardly enough for your 40 miles even when the road is flat. Any bike with torque sensor requires much more leg work on hills than on flat roads.
If you are going for an electric Brompton, you should consider my Brompton kit. It has 13AH battery and a pedal sensor instead of torque sensor.
https://wooshbikes.co.uk/?hubkits#q70kit

Thank you - Seen it and it's certainly on my list. I've plenty of time to get things right, I don't want to regret an expensive purchase and luckily I do have an electric mtb with mid-drive motor and 500w battery for reference, so I know what that beast can do on full power in terms of range and assistance (albeit a torque sensor). As for the 40 mile range - well that would be a maximum - in the hills I'd expect maybe 15-20 miles of assistance. So if I run out of 'juice' the bike would need to be relatively light (which the Brompton is).

 

[Pete_]

I think the factory electric Brompton uses the front rack mount for the battery and associated gubbins, so you may not be able to add the large bag you mention. The Swytch conversion mounts the gear on the bars. My Brompton, which I've just sold, fits easily into the rear of my small Fiat Panda, although two wouldn't fit. If budget is not a problem, a shop in Glasgow https://www.kinetics-online.co.uk/folding-bikes/brompton/ that sells modified Bromptons - at a price!

Thank you - the large bag is for the Brompton electric and is made by them as an additional accessory. The battery sits in the middle of the bag with room either side for other stuff, external, extra pockets at the back too for more gear - hence it's so big.

 

[PP100]

Not sure how practical it would be for you but for my non E Brompton I used this type of pannier which clamps to the seat post (as Brompton's own basket/pannier options were quite expensive/limited at the time or not available) Can't remember how it affects folding so it may need to be removed for that .
Been years since I rode my 2 speed Brompton but have finally booked a few minor repairs at a local Bike shop (eg needs new chain) to overhaul it.
The Brompton was probably the most comfortable ride I have known (in my very limited experience) but what put me off using it was fitting the marathon tyres is really a pain - took ages and was never straight - I never got the hang or knack for it and I felt I could not spend that amount of time on the road in a hurry on the way to work , if I got a puncture . The guy on the Brompton youtube video made look so easy! Maybe I will have another go .
Potentially converting it, or selling it to buy a full E bike is another option.

 

[Woosh]

Can't remember how it affects folding so it may need to be removed for that .

that type of rack does not affect the folding, it just stays sticking out, making the folded Brompton more difficult to carry.
If you carry a Brompton bag at the front, you can fit the battery on the seat post like this:

https://wooshbikes.co.uk/2020/brompton/seatpostmount.jpg