folder ebike with "large" frame feel vs hybrid conversion

[sandyman44]

hi all
my first post so hope I get all the info down you all need (apologies for the length) and thanks in advance for any advice.

I have 5.5 miles to commute from home to station to catch london train. this is flat with undulations, no big hills, around 80% on good cycle paths where speed restriction is not an issue. I need to do this as fast as possible as I am comparing this to in the car which I can do in about 12 mins, at an average of 35mph. If I have to do it really slowly its not worth it (Already getting up really early!) . I then have 1.5 miles to do in london at the other end.
I'm 95kg, 6ft, long limbs, fit recreational but not club cyclist, I can do the same trip in 25 mins or less on the road bike but that means hot and sweaty. I need to do it in not much more than 20 mins in a suit for the commute...so 18-20 mph needed.

option 1: large frame e-bike conversion to leave at local station. In london, use boris hire bike / catch bus / walk / leave an old bike overnight at euston (there are lots of options).
option 2: folding e-bike to ride at both ends and take on train in the middle (has to be a folder to be allowed). But (its a big but) the folder will need to "ride big" (more later).

I've borrowed a whoosh sirocco cdl (http://wooshbikes.co.uk/?sirocco-cdl) from a family member to test the concept. It gets me there in just about the right time and non-sweatyness, so I know that an e-bike will work for me but I have a couple of issues with this particular bike that may help indicate my needs:
- rear rack battery + my bag on top of the rack makes it really rear end heavy, I have to really slow it down for corners otherwise I am convinced I will lose the back end, I have felt "wobbles".
- this particular crank drive seems unsophisticated. I like to flick between cogs to get my cadence right, its very "crunchy" on the gears as it doesn't shift nicely unless you manually depower before shifting.
- brakes are very basic - low end mech front disk, v on the back (doesn't matter so much) making me very cautious about my braking points.

I own a potential donor bike for option 1, a 2014 giant roam zero hybrid, that may well become surplus to requirements. This has 3x10 full deore, good hydraulic discs and a basic hybrid front fork. So I could convert that. The issues I can see are
- rear hub motor - need one that will take a 10x cassette, most seem to be setup for low end freewheel. Rear disc will almost certainly foul on hub so will need larger rotor and caliper moving. maybe I won't like the weight at the back.
- crank motor - would probably need a reasonably sophisticated (= expensive?) one to give me the right feel, but should give me the best weight distribution for bike handling? happy to lose my 3x on the existing front crank.
- battery - has to be seat or down tube mount to keep weight distribution low
- probably the cheapest option as only buying conversion kit (plus labour, would not trust myself to DIY this) not a whole bike..

option 2 is to buy a folding e-bike (I don't currently own any kind of folder).

having ridden a few (reise and muller birdy conversion, raleigh stow-eway, a2b kuo+ , a2b boost, volt metro), the only one that came close to feeling nice was the Tern Vectron, for two reasons:
- I have a reasonably forward riding position, I am not a serious roadie but on the other hand I definitely don't like to sit up and beg. I need at least 27" saddle-to-bars. most folders being "one-size-fits-all" are 23"-25" which makes me feel completely squashed and gives me a dire twitchy handling feel - I simply would not buy any folding bike that is built like this. I have not yet found any folder that has any capability to put a "forward reaching" full-size bike stem on - they all adjust up and down but not forwards and back, and the stems are usually designed as a fixed part that you can't swap.
The only folder I've seen is the tern with its swinging adjustable one, that does get me to the magic 27" mark.
- it has proper bike components where it matters (good hydraulic discs) and not where it doesn't (I don't care about a suspension fork, for example).
- the bosch crank drive motor on the tern felt "just right" for my riding , felt very intuitive and it gave me power when I wanted it and not when I didn't. Everything else (including the borrowed whoosh) seems laggy in both the power on and the power off.
- 20 inch wheels minimum (it needs to be comfortable at 18-20 mph) so no bromptons or similar.

However, the vectron is 3 grand, which is way over budget - around a grand is where I want to be. bearing in mind I could buy a 2nd hand renault zoe CAR for 5 grand and it would get me to the station on electricity in much more comfort!

any thoughts appreciated.
cheers

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Two points you need to consider:

1. A decent bike left at the station won't be there when you come home.
2. Folding electric bikes are too cumbersome to take on a train every day.

My advice would be to use a cheap second-hand catalogue bike for the journey and get up 5 minutes earlier. 5 miles is nothing on a non-electric bike when you don't have hills, especially if you do it twice a day five times a week.

 

[anotherkiwi]

Tern Joe Tour 27.5, GSM from Woosh with a precialps 130 or 110 BCD spider and a compact double. You will need a thingy to extend the front derailleur out to the correct chain line. Battery in a pannier.

If that is too big for the train the Node with 24" wheels etc

 

[Danidl]

hi all
my first post so hope I get all the info down you all need (apologies for the length) and thanks in advance for any advice.

I have 5.5 miles to commute from home to station to catch london train. this is flat with undulations, no big hills, around 80% on good cycle paths where speed restriction is not an issue. I need to do this as fast as possible as I am comparing this to in the car which I can do in about 12 mins, at an average of 35mph. If I have to do it really slowly its not worth it (Already getting up really early!) . I then have 1.5 miles to do in london at the other end.
I'm 95kg, 6ft, long limbs, fit recreational but not club cyclist, I can do the same trip in 25 mins or less on the road bike but that means hot and sweaty. I need to do it in not much more than 20 mins in a suit for the commute...so 18-20 mph needed.

option 1: large frame e-bike conversion to leave at local station. In london, use boris hire bike / catch bus / walk / leave an old bike overnight at euston (there are lots of options).
option 2: folding e-bike to ride at both ends and take on train in the middle (has to be a folder to be allowed). But (its a big but) the folder will need to "ride big" (more later).

I've borrowed a whoosh sirocco cdl (http://wooshbikes.co.uk/?sirocco-cdl) from a family member to test the concept. It gets me there in just about the right time and non-sweatyness, so I know that an e-bike will work for me but I have a couple of issues with this particular bike that may help indicate my needs:
- rear rack battery + my bag on top of the rack makes it really rear end heavy, I have to really slow it down for corners otherwise I am convinced I will lose the back end, I have felt "wobbles".
- this particular crank drive seems unsophisticated. I like to flick between cogs to get my cadence right, its very "crunchy" on the gears as it doesn't shift nicely unless you manually depower before shifting.
- brakes are very basic - low end mech front disk, v on the back (doesn't matter so much) making me very cautious about my braking points.

I own a potential donor bike for option 1, a 2014 giant roam zero hybrid, that may well become surplus to requirements. This has 3x10 full deore, good hydraulic discs and a basic hybrid front fork. So I could convert that. The issues I can see are
- rear hub motor - need one that will take a 10x cassette, most seem to be setup for low end freewheel. Rear disc will almost certainly foul on hub so will need larger rotor and caliper moving. maybe I won't like the weight at the back.
- crank motor - would probably need a reasonably sophisticated (= expensive?) one to give me the right feel, but should give me the best weight distribution for bike handling? happy to lose my 3x on the existing front crank.
- battery - has to be seat or down tube mount to keep weight distribution low
- probably the cheapest option as only buying conversion kit (plus labour, would not trust myself to DIY this) not a whole bike..

option 2 is to buy a folding e-bike (I don't currently own any kind of folder).

having ridden a few (reise and muller birdy conversion, raleigh stow-eway, a2b kuo+ , a2b boost, volt metro), the only one that came close to feeling nice was the Tern Vectron, for two reasons:
- I have a reasonably forward riding position, I am not a serious roadie but on the other hand I definitely don't like to sit up and beg. I need at least 27" saddle-to-bars. most folders being "one-size-fits-all" are 23"-25" which makes me feel completely squashed and gives me a dire twitchy handling feel - I simply would not buy any folding bike that is built like this. I have not yet found any folder that has any capability to put a "forward reaching" full-size bike stem on - they all adjust up and down but not forwards and back, and the stems are usually designed as a fixed part that you can't swap.
The only folder I've seen is the tern with its swinging adjustable one, that does get me to the magic 27" mark.
- it has proper bike components where it matters (good hydraulic discs) and not where it doesn't (I don't care about a suspension fork, for example).
- the bosch crank drive motor on the tern felt "just right" for my riding , felt very intuitive and it gave me power when I wanted it and not when I didn't. Everything else (including the borrowed whoosh) seems laggy in both the power on and the power off.
- 20 inch wheels minimum (it needs to be comfortable at 18-20 mph) so no bromptons or similar.

However, the vectron is 3 grand, which is way over budget - around a grand is where I want to be. bearing in mind I could buy a 2nd hand renault zoe CAR for 5 grand and it would get me to the station on electricity in much more comfort!

any thoughts appreciated.
cheers

You don't need as many gears on an ebike. So 8 to 10 is more than enough.
I would agree with your statement that the Bosch just feels right. My sentiments exactly. But in fairness you are comparing product at twice the price ..
At 15 mph your first journey will take 20 minutes without burning up a sweat. It means you can rely on 16 mph up slopes and your efforts at 18 20 down slopes
Is there a property store at the station, d8vh is correct a good attractive bike will not last when parked in the same public space regularly. See my posts about angle grinders!
I did see an orbea with 20 inch wheels and Bosch motor and would be around 2200 .
If you are regularly commuting a pannier it is much more sensible than a bag on a carrier. The weight being carried lower is more stable also.
All folders are compromises and are to be avoided unless necessary....

A grand is unlikely to cut it for a central drive bike and since you don't have big hills etc, a front of rear hub motor seems more suitable not as nice but more practical.

 

[sandyman44]

thanks to all.

leaving full-size at station: my local station has an open-fronted undercover bike store with a CCTV watching it and its adjacent to the station building and everyone walking from the station to the car park walks past its front. I also use two abus granit x-plus gold d-locks. So during the day which is when it would be left, there is no chance of the angle grinder brigade being able to work un-noticed. So happy to leave a 1k bike in there (I am doing with the whoosh at the mo).

doing home-station on a push bike - no thanks. Its not "no hills" its "no big hills" I'd have to double my journey time or more to do it "no-sweat". its a long enough door to door (pushing 2 hrs) as it is.

rules on my train is just "folders only" it doesn't have to be tiny brompton . most folders on my train are even split between bromptons and various 20's, with couple of tern 24's and one 26. I get on at the start of the line so I can pick my spot.

I haven't seen anyone selling ready-pedelec'd larger folders like the tern node?
don't really want to buy a non-elec folder then convert it, if converting I'd rather convert my hybrid as I already own part of the investment i.e. the bike . Also, the folder stem thing is completely crucial, if I can't find one that fits me on the reach, its not a workable option.

bosch system - yes I know its not apples for apples. but as I understand it they are only available to bike manufacturers. is there a mid priced mid-drive thats better than the bafang in my borrowed woosh that will get close to the behaviour of the bosch? A grand (or thereabouts - not picky, just dont want to spend 3k!) should be enough to fund the conversion of my existing hybrid surely?

when I commuted across milton keynes by road bike previously I used panniers but at the moment because I am flexing in/out of various options at the london end (walk, bus, boris bike ) I 'm using a rucksack, hence that straps to the top of the rack. may switch to panniers when I decide on a consistent method. really don't like the handling that comes from battery in rack though.

 

[Danidl]

thanks to all.

leaving full-size at station: my local station has an open-fronted undercover bike store with a CCTV watching it and its adjacent to the station building and everyone walking from the station to the car park walks past its front. I also use two abus granit x-plus gold d-locks. So during the day which is when it would be left, there is no chance of the angle grinder brigade being able to work un-noticed. So happy to leave a 1k bike in there (I am doing with the whoosh at the mo).

doing home-station on a push bike - no thanks. Its not "no hills" its "no big hills" I'd have to double my journey time or more to do it "no-sweat". its a long enough door to door (pushing 2 hrs) as it is.

rules on my train is just "folders only" it doesn't have to be tiny brompton . most folders on my train are even split between bromptons and various 20's, with couple of tern 24's and one 26. I get on at the start of the line so I can pick my spot.

I haven't seen anyone selling ready-pedelec'd larger folders like the tern node?
don't really want to buy a non-elec folder then convert it, if converting I'd rather convert my hybrid as I already own part of the investment i.e. the bike . Also, the folder stem thing is completely crucial, if I can't find one that fits me on the reach, its not a workable option.

bosch system - yes I know its not apples for apples. but as I understand it they are only available to bike manufacturers. is there a mid priced mid-drive thats better than the bafang in my borrowed woosh that will get close to the behaviour of the bosch? A grand (or thereabouts - not picky, just dont want to spend 3k!) should be enough to fund the conversion of my existing hybrid surely?

when I commuted across milton keynes by road bike previously I used panniers but at the moment because I am flexing in/out of various options at the london end (walk, bus, boris bike ) I 'm using a rucksack, hence that straps to the top of the rack. may switch to panniers when I decide on a consistent method. really don't like the handling that comes from battery in rack though.

If you are comfortable with the idea of leaving the bike at the local station, then full sized wheels are plausible. I see you had put your mind against the sit up and beg Dutch style, perhaps you might reconsider? They are more comfortable, and give more situational awareness, and because of the electric motor , compensate for the less aerodynamic stance.
One of the lowest cost Bosch motored bikes would be the Raleigh Captus and it would have the range ... Actually you would be hard put to get an ebike that didn't, and strength to do it regularly. Its around the 1500 mark. I have it's stable mate, the motus, and it has done 1000 miles with no adjustments whatever except a single puncture.

 

[sandyman44]

yes, my option 1 is leave a full size wheel bike at station. I already have a bike I can use for this purpose - I can convert my hybrid giant roam (700c), its already the sort of bike I'd want to ride for this trip, nice handling , nice components. just a question of the conversion options to keep the weight balance right and the right feel to the power delivery.

sorry I just don't like sit-up bike position - actually pondering on clip-on aerobars for my hybrid if I e-convert it - it is more an issue with the folders I've been trying though as they are all short in the virtual-top-tube dimension.

 

[Woosh]

hello sandyman44,

May I suggest the Woosh Zephyr 2017? it is foldable, therefore qualified to be taken into trains, 12AH battery with a range of about 35-40 miles, sufficient for you to go from rail station to work and rail station to home, full suspension front and rear, hydraulic brakes front and rear, and a good strong SWX02 motor from Bafang. Ideally suited for 6-footers.
Budget wise, it's just over £1,000.
The battery is well hidden inside the main beam, less obvious as an electric bike.

http://wooshbikes.co.uk/?zephyr-2017

 

[sandyman44]

h

hello sandyman44,

May I suggest the Woosh Zephyr 2017? it is foldable, therefore qualified to be taken into trains, 12AH battery with a range of about 35-40 miles, sufficient for you to go from rail station to work and rail station to home, full suspension front and rear, hydraulic brakes front and rear, and a good strong SWX02 motor from Bafang. Ideally suited for 6-footers.
Budget wise, it's just over £1,000.
The battery is well hidden inside the main beam, less obvious as an electric bike.

http://wooshbikes.co.uk/?zephyr-2017

hi whoosh
thats getting close to what I'm looking for if I go option 2 folder. I like the hidden mid battery and mid motor , hydra discs and the fact it takes a proper stem so should be able to get the fit right. however I'm looking for a commuter not an MTB - I'd skip the suspension on the frame design (especially the rear) in favour of being designed to take rack and lights etc. I already have a 2k full-sus MTB (giant trance X) so rear sus in a commuter for me is pointless / adds weight/complexity/cost and will make the riding less efficient.
Also wheel-size I'd like to get away with a max of 24 if I can. 20 would be great if the frame is fit adjustable and "rides big".

 

[newbieblyth]

Hi, interested in how you get on with your search as I have been considering options for a similar mixed bike + train commute.

In addition to the Zephyr I have also been thinking about a trip to CH White and Son http://foldingbike.biz/ as they do a range of folders / e-bike conversions and I believe they can build up what you require from standard frames - so for example I was considering something based on a Dahon Espresso / Jack.

However I should add all this is simply theoretical based on too much time surfing rather than actual experience!

 

[sandyman44]

In addition to the Zephyr I have also been thinking about a trip to CH White and Son http://foldingbike.biz/ as they do a range of folders / e-bike conversions and I believe they can build up what you require from standard frames - so for example I was considering something based on a Dahon Espresso / Jack.

I just got to the same point also, had a good read of CH White site last night and spend this morning's train commute penning them an email explaining my requirements for the folder... its the starting point of frame that's crucial to me I think.

 

[newbieblyth]

Thanks, if you sent them an email via their webpage be warned you may not get a quick reply - I sent them a query and it went into their spam folder!

 

[topographer]

Hi, interested in how you get on with your search as I have been considering options for a similar mixed bike + train commute.

In addition to the Zephyr I have also been thinking about a trip to CH White and Son http://foldingbike.biz/ as they do a range of folders / e-bike conversions and I believe they can build up what you require from standard frames - so for example I was considering something based on a Dahon Espresso / Jack.

However I should add all this is simply theoretical based on too much time surfing rather than actual experience!

I would dread taking my Zephyr on a train. It's heavy and cumbersome and when folded there's nothing keeping the two halves together and they seem quite keen to separate. It also tries to fall over with the slightest encouragement. It's fairly bulky even when folded as well. Still a good bike though.

 

[Powerbikes]

I'd probably be more inclined to use a larger bike and leave at the station but I can see having a folder would make things easier the other end.
Best I can suggest as a large folding bike would be the Byocycles Clameleon FDXL
17" frame, 24" wheels and suitable for anyone up to 6'4"
https://powerbikes.uk/shop/e-bikes/style/folding/byocycles-chameleon-fdxl/

 

[sandyman44]

hi powerbikes . that one certainly seems worth a look I can see it has a stem and "normal bike" bar so reach would be adjusable. from your website i can see you are in cumbria...quite a long way away from me. any dealers further south?

also any further pics of the fold and such?

 

[Powerbikes]

P&D cycles are the closest Byocycles stockist to you. Best call to see if they have one in if you are wanting to test ride. I currently don't have any in myself so can't take any extra pics unfortunately.


P&D Cycles
35 Aylesbury Street, Bletchley

Milton Keynes, Buckinghamshire MK2 2BQ

United Kingdom

01908 642203

 

[sandyman44]

well here's a few updates. had a look in my local byocycle stockist P&D in bletchley, they had the 20" chameleon tornado but not the 24. guy said he'd never had anyone ask for the 24 ever and had no interest in getting one in. the 20" felt like a cheap basic bike with an electric motor added, the folded state was pretty unmanageable for train commuting, so I don't hold much hope for the 24. The 20 also felt very short in the top tube. didn't test ride it.

had an email conversation with crosshead bikes, seems like a good long wheelbase/top tube frame commuter folder, they are a startup so can't actually sell a bike yet so there isn't a price (but its going to be expensive), and their electrification is "in development".

test rode an airnimal joey 24 at bikefix in london. Really nice bike, feels like what I want for the bike itself. standard bike stem so can tweak the bars to where you want. however not keen on the fold for train commuting - front wheel off, with a disk brake not keen on inserting rotor/into pad 2x a day. quite expensive for just the bike (1500) with electrification on top.

having an on/off email discussion with chwhite - not sure whether they want my business or not, at first said "we can't help you". after a bit more digging there is a potential to fit a mid-drive kit to a tern node, which might well be a good option based on fold quality, size of frame, and price,around 1500 all-in. however, I have not yet seen let alone ridden a node. struggling to find the tern dealers..their website says evans, but haven't come across any evans store yet that does them, and I've wandered into quite a few in london which I would have thought might be their natural selling ground, but no, its bromptons, bromptons, nothing but bromptons...

oh and I've discovered i am in fact an ape. kids doing school project measuring all family. wingspan should equal height. mine 3.5" wider - 6ft3 or so. explains why I always feel like i need the reach on a bike!

 

[Powerbikes]

Bit of a shame P&D couldn't help you and I'm sorry for your wasted journey.

By the sounds of it a custom build may be the best way to go to make sure you get exactly what you want/need.

 

[sandyman44]

no worries wasn't a journey - P&D shop in bletchley only a few miles from me and I was on the way back from somewhere else anyway.

CHwhite have now "folded" so to speak- seems like they don't want to take on the effort of customizing a bike, other than repeating one of the custom builds they've done already.

currently pondering on what to do as not getting anywhere with pre-ebiked folding designs.... will try to find dealers to test ride tern node, tern joe and dahon ios (all in non-e-form) and then will have to ask for opinions regarding the e-convertibility of each and finding someone to do it.
The Joe 26ers do come up on ebay l so there is possibility to save there. whereas the two 24ers seem rare as hens teeth so almost certainly looking at new..

 

[anotherkiwi]

In my current living quarters a converted Tern Node would be my first choice. I would use the Q100 rear hub motor. The controller should fit in a custom made box in the triangle above the chainwheel, battery in a bag either on the front or on the rear rack. Needs a Magura HS11 brake on the front.