First ebike: Cube Touring Hybrid One/Hybrid or Reaction Hybrid One or something else?

[Eagle]

....because the ALP is zero resist it's far easier to pedal with the motor off or over the 25km/h cut off.
As a practical matter zero resist motors do massively increase your effective range on a touring bike.

Andy,
I completely agree.
Even in today's blustery conditions I have been able to exceed the 15.5 mph cutoff speed on many occasions on my "zero-resist" Haibike Sduro (Yamaha PW-SE motor) and therefore contribute to a higher range.

 

[Andy McNish]

The question for most of us is 'What is the real world range of my bike in the conditions I'm most likely to use it in?'.

The availability of zero resist motors means 'no assist' cycling is a reasonable option for many of us on flat tarmac, at least if we aren't in a rush or feeling tired or are physically compromised in some way.

We use the battery on hills, into strong winds, to plow through heavy ground, to boost our speed if we in a rush, to keep our heart rate down or just if our legs are getting tired. Or for the pure fun if it .

But we don't have to use it all the time, and many of us cycling down rivers and along cycle paths for leisure use don't, and that makes our range in real world use significantly more than you would expect from plugging the numbers in. We can literally cycle all day and explore without range anxiety.

 

[Poolepete]

Hi Andy, this was exactly why I posted the figures from my Bosch report. It is a real life synopsis over 750 miles. Unless you are climbing mountains, continuously riding into a gale or using the higher assistance modes all the time, you can realistically expect 70 miles from a 400w battery on a bike with an ALP (Active Line Plus) motor. If you're going to do a 50 mile cycle ride with mates (surely enough for most people in a day?), you can set off without range anxiety. Tour mode with this motor is all you need for most conditions, and I am far from Superman! The other important point you make regarding the ALP is also worth stressing; there is absolutely no perception of cut off at 15.5 mph. When riding along flat sections of road I would say that I am usually riding between 16 and 18mph (and a fair bit faster if the wind is behind me). The average speed on my bike is over 14mph, something that would be impossible for me to achieve if the bike was equipped with a motor that offered resistance above the cut off speed...I'm just not that fit, yet!

 

[vfr400]

The question for most of us is 'What is the real world range of my bike in the conditions I'm most likely to use it in?'.

The availability of zero resist motors means 'no assist' cycling is a reasonable option for many of us on flat tarmac, at least if we aren't in a rush or feeling tired or are physically compromised in some way.

We use the battery on hills, into strong winds, to plow through heavy ground, to boost our speed if we in a rush, to keep our heart rate down or just if our legs are getting tired. Or for the pure fun if it .

But we don't have to use it all the time, and many of us cycling down rivers and along cycle paths for leisure use don't, and that makes our range in real world use significantly more than you would expect from plugging the numbers in. We can literally cycle all day and explore without range anxiety.

That's exactly right, but the problem is that many people browse through these forums as research to help choose a bike that meets their needs. Most of them have no idea of the factors that affect range, so they take any data at face value, which may leave them very disappointed.

Having worked in and observed in many ebike shops, I've seen all the people coming in and asking about range. They nearly always ask about it. I would be looking at some 50 year old with a massive beer gut, wheezing after his fag, asking me how far the bike I recommended could go. When I gave him an honest opinion for his circumstances, I'd get an answer like, "OK, I'l forget it then because the one I've seen on whatever website does 70 miles, which is more than twice as far". Most people just don't get it.

It's fine to talk about how easy to ride a bike is without power and stuff like that, but any mention of range can be very misleading unless you put it in the context of all the qualifying circumstances and parameters, which of course most people don't understand anyway.

Think about the guy that comes on the forum and reads how Eddiepj can flatten his battery in less than 15 miles, then he reads a post from the guy that claims that he gets 50 miles from his Gtech that flies up hills. This is what worries me.

 

[Poolepete]

...and that's where a decent salesman from a good bike shop comes in. As a salesman myself (a yacht broker), it's not all about getting the sale, it's about giving decent advice. If I was an e bike salesman, I would explain to said fag smoking fat man that it's not range he needs to worry about etc etc . Whether someone chooses to ignore that advice is up to them. One of the major reasons I chose my bike, was the chap working in the shop.

 

[vfr400]

...and that's where a decent salesman from a good bike shop comes in. As a salesman myself (a yacht broker), it's not all about getting the sale, it's about giving decent advice. If I was an e bike salesman, I would explain to said fag smoking fat man that it's not range he needs to worry about etc etc . Whether someone chooses to ignore that advice is up to them. One of the major reasons I chose my bike, was the chap working in the shop.

You often don't get a chance to explain anything, especially when they have their clever mate advising them. I can imagine many ebike salesmen chuckling when they read that. They'll know what I mean even if you don't.

It's not just people in shops either. Look back through the "Which Bike" threads, where you'll see posts like, "I prefer the looks of this one, but the other has longer range". For every one of those, there are probably 20 more that don't even post on the forum, so we don't get a chance to put them straight.

 

[Poolepete]

Don't get me started...I am all too used to "expert friends " who don't have the first clue. The good advice you and others provide here will hopefully give those interested a good start in their research.

 

[Chris M]

It is all about knowing what sort of riding you will be doing in order to choose the right bike with the right motor. As I mostly cycle trails that are not too challenging the Bosch Active Line Plus is excellent for my needs. I'm not very fit but I can run at 17mph without assistance along a flat trail for long distances, something that I doubt I would be able to do with a CX or equivalent but I admit I haven't tried it.
I agree that range is not really predictable due to all the variables. Along a flat straight trail there will be the need to slow down to pass walkers and cross roads as well as differing winds. Even the surface of the trail may change due to weather or surfacing work. All of these will have an effect on range making the miles per charge differ even for the same rider on the same trail on different days. I reckon the acceleration back up to 17 mph after passing walkers on busy paths uses a lot of power. I say that because my legs stay much stronger with my ebike helping acceleration in these circumstances than they used to with a manual.
I'm glad I went for the 500wh battery rather than the 400. Even though so far I have never even used half a battery on a ride its nice to know its there if and when I do a longer ride in the summer. In the meantime I can do a lot of short rides between charges which reduces hassle.
For me ability to cope with all trail surfaces, motor noise, total bike weight (I often put it in the back of the car) and ability to climb long fairly steep hills are most important. It would probably be better to merely say range is "sufficient" and comparable with other similar bikes rather than give a distance.

 

[Eagle]

I suspect that the majority of potential ebikers do little research and dive straight into Evans, Halfords etc (or buy unseen online) and then end up with the wrong bike for their individual requirements.
As vfr400 has remarked, the ones who ask for advice on these forums are likely to be the small minority.

 

[Chris M]

I suspect that the majority of potential ebikers do little research and dive straight into Evans, Halfords etc (or buy unseen online) and then end up with the wrong bike for their individual requirements.
As vfr400 has remarked, the ones who ask for advice on these forums are likely to be the small minority.

True .
I did research online and had called into Halfords plus a couple of other bike shops . I then went to Race Co Cycles at Stourbridge. I must confess my first impression was that this wasn't the right place for me. They are very into top end full Susser MTBs but I was a little old bloke wanting to ride simple trails. Nevertheless I spoke with the guys in the shop and they were incredibly helpful and gave me what, in the light of experience since my purchase, was excellent advice . They didn't try to sell me something fantastic which was way beyond my needs but gave me down to earth advice which is why I bought my Acid hybrid from them.

 

[Eagle]

Chris M,
That is good to hear.
You are fortunate to have a local bike shop with a wide selection of quality bikes and decent sales staff dispensing sound advice.
Well done Race Co Cycles in Stourbridge.

 

[sjpt]

I suspect that the majority of potential ebikers do little research and dive straight into Evans, Halfords etc (or buy unseen online) and then end up with the wrong bike for their individual requirements.
As vfr400 has remarked, the ones who ask for advice on these forums are likely to be the small minority.

Absolutely. Just like people buying regular bikes, computers, phones, hifi, etc etc etc

 

[M. Tartiflette]

Well we've been lucky with the weather over the past couple of weeks, so I've now had the opportunity to venture further afield. Early impressions have been confirmed re. the Bosch motor. It seems ample for my needs. Even went up a steepish, roughish trail the other day with ease. Though when I got over-ambitious and attempted a rubble strewn steep ascent this did prove a bit much for this rider, even if it was mainly due to the back wheel slipping on the uneven surface.

However, I did have the misfortune of breaking my chain yesterday. Set off up a hill path which was perhaps steeper than I expected I guess in too low a gear, as the chain snapped. Was a little surprised as this has never happened to me before. Anyway, the chain is fixed and all seems ok now.

 

[Andy McNish]

I did the 100km Tour de Manc Sportiv event (for charity) a couple of weeks ago on my Cube Touring Hybrid 500.

https://www.tourdemanc.co.uk/event/half-manc/

It's 100km with 4500 feet of elevation (I cycled with with an old friend who was on her 9kg aero-bike).

Used 60% of the battery.

I went up almost all of the hills in 2nd gear using Eco mode (my friend was 3 years out of cycling and bonked quite badly so I was just going up slowly).

The hard bit was trying to keep up with road bikes on the flat over and above the 25kph cut-off!

But finishing with 40% of the battery left was beyond my expectations and really means the 'range monster' ephithet can be properly applied to ALP powered bikes.

 

[Artstu]

(my friend was 3 years out of cycling and bonked quite badly so I was just going up slowly

'range monster' ephithet can be properly applied to ALP powered bikes.

The availability of zero resist motors means 'no assist' cycling is a reasonable option for many of us on flat tarmac

With the caveat that you have to ride really slowly at the pace of an untrained lady on a pedal only cycle.

Do it again at a more realistic e-bike like pace in full power to give the readers the worse case range.

Only saying as I'd also worry about people reading your posts and thinking an ALP powered bike is a range monster in all situations.

I think zero resist is misleading too, whilst the motor resistance is low, correct me if I'm wrong, but you're still having to turn the cogs and motor round when it is either switched off or above the motor assist speed.

Think about the guy that comes on the forum and reads how Eddiepj can flatten his battery in less than 15 miles, then he reads a post from the guy that claims that he gets 50 miles from his Gtech that flies up hills. This is what worries me.

 

[Andy McNish]

With the caveat that you have to ride really slowly at the pace of an untrained lady on a pedal only cycle.

Do it again at a more realistic e-bike like pace in full power to give the readers the worse case range.

Only saying as I'd also worry about people reading your posts and thinking an ALP powered bike is a range monster in all situations.

I think zero resist is misleading too, whilst the motor resistance is low, correct me if I'm wrong, but you're still having to turn the cogs and motor round when it is either switched off or above the motor assist speed.

Why is bombing along in full power turbo 'a more realistic ebike like pace' than getting up a steep long hill with a partner who is on a 9kg road bike?

There are three scenarios where you want to go as fast as you can:
a) you are in a rush
b) you are keeping up with someone faster; or
c) you enjoy pretending to be on a motorcycle.

Most of the time none of the above apply to legal ebikers in normal use. The most common exceptions are commuters going up hills or where the rider is disabled (in the latter case you'd be better off with a cadence rather than a torque based system anyway) .

Those who just want pure speed tend to go to the dark side and derestrict.

All I can give are my real world usage stats.
30kg bike
95kg rider
100km
4500 feet of elevation.
300 W used.

And 'Can I get up Owd Betts climb on an ALP bike in second gear in Eco mode? Answer - yes.

 

[Artstu]

All I can give are my real world usage stats.
30kg bike
95kg rider
100km
4500 feet of elevation.
300 W used.

Crucially you have missed off your average speed, or perhaps it was deliberate?

I'm simply trying to give some context to your range claims.

 

[Andy McNish]

Crucially you have missed off your average speed, or perhaps it was deliberate?

I'm simply trying to give some context to your range claims.

No, not deliberate. My Strava was messed up so I didn't record it. My partner did though so I've looked it up just now and it was 17.2 kph.

My 1 hour daily commute is 20km at 20kph, almost all on Tour setting with minimal elevation (320 feet) and that uses just over 100W.

And the aren't "claims", they are factually accurate reports.

I think you care about speed. I care about heart rate and use that to govern my motor use, not speed.

I don't feel that I must be going at 25kph or faster or somehow I'm not going at "proper ebike speed".

 

[Artstu]

No, not deliberate. My Strava was messed up so I didn't record it. My partner did though so I've looked it up just now and it was 17.2 kph.

My 1 hour daily commute is 20km at 20kph, almost all on Tour setting with minimal elevation (320 feet) and that uses just over 100W.

And the aren't "claims", they are factually accurate reports.

I think you care about speed. I care about heart rate and use that to govern my motor use, not speed.

I don't feel that I must be going at 25kph or faster or somehow I'm not going at "proper ebike speed".

Sorry range reports then, I wasn't trying to imply your range reports were inaccurate.

Again I am simply trying to make anyone reading aware that how you use your bike is at the opposite end of the scale to say how I would use it. I haven't questioned the way you use your bike in the way you questioned the Orbea Gain owners use of his bike, you ride it as you like I don't care, what I do care about is that the bias for slow economy riding you have could be very misleading to a casual reader of the forum with regards to the range of these bikes.

You're correct I didn't buy an e-bike to go slower than on an ordinary bike, that would be a waste of money for me.

 

[Andy McNish]

Ah well that's the fundamental difference between us.

I own a touring bike to go touring. Off road mostly. To explore hills I wouldn't otherwise enjoy going up or which would risk maxing my heart rate, to potter 70km down rivers, canals and cycle paths on a long hot day without worrying about getting overheated and blowing up, to have that freedom to follow the birdsong wherever it goes. I don't need or even want to go faster than say 10mph, unless I'm late for tea!

I do my Strava PB attempts and 45 minute fitness cycles on an old MTB. The ebike's not for speed for me... it's for spending the day improving physical and mental health in beautiful countryside.

As regards range then of course this is always massively dependent on how much you hammer the boost button. Nevertheless in real world use the ALP bikes with a 500W/hr battery are about as good as you are going to get from the big manufacturers in terms of range at the moment.

As for the Gain user, I think I made it quite clear that he can of course ride any bike he likes whenever he likes and that all real world use info is welcome and useful, but was asking whether, with so little need to use the motor on a flat windless 25km road ride, the Gain was giving him any "gain" over his carbon road bike that was literally half the Gain's weight.