Final limit at 250 watts EU ruling

[DJH]

In practice not. Many e-bikes are capable of continuously operating at over 250 watts output, some at double or more that. They need to be, in the days when the power limit was observed much more strictly, e-bikes were frankly useless. This was why they made no market progress for two decades, a prospect only had to try one to realise they didn't need it.

What e-bike is it that you have by the way?

It's an Oxygen Emate City which shows the watts I am using. I very rarely use the top setting which gives me the 570w reading except for the odd 30 second burst on a very steep hill. It would also eat up the battery so it is used very conservatively.

 

[Scimitar]

The HS class and even the German higher power classes are not affected, but of course they have restrictions like compulsory registration and insurance and number plates. They are also limited on where they can be ridden and I think helmets are compulsory with them. So basically almost as much hassle as a motor cycle to own.

Hmmm... yes and no. Once the paperwork is done you needn't worry about costly servicing, maintenance and fuel/oils. Even though they're bigger and heavier, they're still bicycles and can be run on a shoestring compared to a motorcycle.
Technically, mine is a class whatever, but I use bike components and since they're capable of coping with the speeds and loads I put it to, I have no need to spend more on it than I'd normally spend on it as a bicycle. I service mine in the kitchen with no mess, either.

 

[morphix]

Our hopes of the European Parliament recommendation for pedelec power limitation to be removed becoming law have now been dashed, the 250 watt limit is final:

Read the details here

How is this law going to be enforced I wonder.. I can see all kinds of practical problems for the police.. I think we have said, unless you're acting like an idiot/drawing attention to yourself, or unlucky enough to be the cause of an accident.. it's unlikely the police will have the time/means to test motors?

The question is whether the government will make it law for manufacturers to have some rating stamped on motors, or some EU approval number/sign, or something in future..

This also raises a question re BMS Batteries / GreenBikeKit.. they're advertising motors at "250-350" and basically sending out 350W motors as I discovered today! Does this mean they've stopped making 250W, or they can't be precise enough about the rating so put a range?

 

[Scimitar]

The problem is always the batteries.
Use more wattage, get less mileage.
If the proposed weight limit of 25 kg is enforced, then the possibilty of wiring in 2 or 3 batteries is unlikely.
(Unless the 25 kg does not include the battery)

I'd fit a trailer with two extra batteries
I doubt the legislation mentions trailers...

 

[amigafan2003]

Maybe with such a clear statement all these 350 watt bikes,which mainly seem to be in West London will be taken off the road-chinese style throw them in the crusher!

You'll have to prise mine out of my cold dead fingers - as that's the only way I'll be giving it up.

 

[morphix]

You'll have to prise mine out of my cold dead fingers - as that's the only way I'll be giving it up.

I see this law as more a "guideline" for the industry and I think we've covered this before in other threads...if you break the law and end up in trouble with the police, you face the full consequences of riding an unlicensed vehicle.. but for most (sensible) people it won't be an issue and the police won't stop or check you.. or have any way of knowing your motor is 350W if your bike is restricted to 15.5mph.. not that I'm suggesting people ignore the law..but it's just a case of using common sense and not drawing attention to yourself.

 

[CycloTricity]

No restriction of power is good. Now that they've fixed it at 250w, the next thing to sort out will be what 250w means. If someone decides that it means 250w max, we'll all be riding round on those 24v slugs that we had 10 years ago, which got electric bikes ridiculed because they were a complete waste of time.
A motor "rated at 250w" has absolutely no meaning, which is why manufacturers can exploit it and produce the more enjoyable bikes like the Bosch motored ones, and others that can produce a lot more power than 250w. It's only a matter of time before someone tries to pin it down. Much better not to have a power limit, but we've got one for now, so please don't see this as any kind of success.

I agree. Although, I think there needs to be some kind of power restriction, but 250W is way too low. It is the speed and weight of a vehicle that are the main two factors causing a safety hazard on impact, so why can't they just focus on that?? Bumping the power limit up to 500W or 750W (like it is in the US) will actually do more good to R&D progress as manufacturers get the chance to be a lot more creative with what an e-bike can actually do.

I still think the speed should be capped at 15.5mph for safety reasons though. But such a low limit of power simply limits how far this alternative and viable form of transport can mutate into new e-bike categories. And sure, let there be a whole new category of vehicles distinct from normal bikes, so what?? Surely it's a good thing as long as safety, weight and speed don't turn them into a motor cycle.

Rami

 

[flecc]

Hmmm... yes and no. Once the paperwork is done you needn't worry about costly servicing, maintenance and fuel/oils.

Yes of course, I was only referring to the riding bureaucracy involved, not the total motor vehicle implications.

 

[flecc]

It's an Oxygen Emate City which shows the watts I am using. I very rarely use the top setting which gives me the 570w reading except for the odd 30 second burst on a very steep hill. It would also eat up the battery so it is used very conservatively.

Thanks for the reply DJH. Given the right circumstances needing the power, your motor can easily run continuously at way over the 250 rating, probably as much as 400 watts net power without overheating. As you say though, the range limitations of the battery are a practical limit, and as d8veh posts, the ambient temperature can need to suit the battery for it to deliver.

But in purely technical terms as I remarked above, most e-bikes can run continuously at far over the 250 watt limit even in net power terms.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

I meant it more the other way round, Flecc. When the temperature's below freezing, you would be able to run all day at max power without anything over-heating, so when the motor's rated at 250w, at what temperature is that? Presumably manufacturers have to include the possibility of the bike being used in temperatures of 40 deg plus.

 

[Kudoscycles]

I see this law as more a "guideline" for the industry and I think we've covered this before in other threads...if you break the law and end up in trouble with the police, you face the full consequences of riding an unlicensed vehicle.. but for most (sensible) people it won't be an issue and the police won't stop or check you.. or have any way of knowing your motor is 350W if your bike is restricted to 15.5mph.. not that I'm suggesting people ignore the law..but it's just a case of using common sense and not drawing attention to yourself.

Unless you have an accident and hurt somebody-a 30mph heavy bike running into a child could cause long term injuries-I realise it was an auto accident but I am reading now a £23million lifetime settlement for a teenager who is a lifetime wheelchair user,the driver was fortunately fully insured-with an illegal bike causing such injuries would you be insured?
It is interesting that my insurance company,for my product liability insurance, has placed greater excess on my ebike sales than my rally parts business,with rally cars going through forests at 150mph,they perceive the bike business as greater risk.
Please don't start another long winded thread about a well worn subject,just consider the risk of riding an illegal bike.
Dave
Kudoscycles

 

[DJH]

I meant it more the other way round, Flecc. When the temperature's below freezing, you would be able to run all day at max power without anything over-heating, so when the motor's rated at 250w, at what temperature is that? Presumably manufacturers have to include the possibility of the bike being used in temperatures of 40 deg plus.

I think certain parameters will be be set set by the overseeing body and the motor will be tested accordingly. I don't think extremes would be used for testing, a median would be taken.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

I think certain parameters will be be set set by the overseeing body and the motor will be tested accordingly. I don't think extremes would be used for testing, a median would be taken.

There is no overseeing body. For a rating specification, I would expect it to be inclusive of at leat a 90 percentile, not a median.

 

[103Alex1]

I still think the speed should be capped at 15.5mph for safety reasons though.

I'm at a complete loss reading this. Unless I am cycling from traffic light to traffic light or taking on a hefty hill, my speed is hardly ever below 15mph (more usually 16-19mph on flat to moderate hilly and easily up to 30mph+ on a DH in a higher gear), and my bike can hardly be described as light at 24,4kg plus about 5kg+ of security equipment in the rack bag to help make sure it's still mine when I come out of the Farm Shop.

The motor makes little to no difference to the pedalling effort to ride at these speeds and it's not hard with a slightly lighter bike to top 20mph+. So how does the imposition of a speed cap of 15.5mph make the least bit of difference from a safety point of view ? The only effect it really has is to make sure I have to remove 2 layers if I want to still be dry when I reach my destination and shell out for baselayers with expensive "wicking properties"on top of the bike !

 

[GaRRy]

I'm at a complete loss reading this. Unless I am cycling from traffic light to traffic light or taking on a hefty hill, my speed is hardly ever below 15mph (more usually 16-19mph on flat to moderate hilly and easily up to 30mph+ on a DH in a higher gear), and my bike can hardly be described as light at 24,4kg plus about 5kg+ of security equipment in the rack bag to help make sure it's still mine when I come out of the Farm Shop.

The motor makes little to no difference to the pedalling effort to ride at these speeds and it's not hard with a slightly lighter bike to top 20mph+. So how does the imposition of a speed cap of 15.5mph make the least bit of difference from a safety point of view ? The only effect it really has is to make sure I have to remove 2 layers if I want to still be dry when I reach my destination and shell out for baselayers with expensive "wicking properties"on top of the bike !

That's because you are the exception. Most cyclists (not just on ebikes) very rarely get above 15 mph except down hills for more than a few hundred meters and quite a few get of and walk at the first sign of a hill. The current regs are there to allow the production of a ebike which emulates a normal bike user but with less effort not to produce more speed.

 

[NRG]

I dont agree, around here the lycras are doing way more that 15mph and when I'm in London theres a lot of commuting bikes going well above 15mph...as a pedestrian you have to have your wits about you crossing the road and its not because of the cars and taxis!

 

[morphix]

Unless you have an accident and hurt somebody-a 30mph heavy bike running into a child could cause long term injuries-I realise it was an auto accident but I am reading now a £23million lifetime settlement for a teenager who is a lifetime wheelchair user,the driver was fortunately fully insured-with an illegal bike causing such injuries would you be insured?
It is interesting that my insurance company,for my product liability insurance, has placed greater excess on my ebike sales than my rally parts business,with rally cars going through forests at 150mph,they perceive the bike business as greater risk.
Please don't start another long winded thread about a well worn subject,just consider the risk of riding an illegal bike.
Dave
Kudoscycles

That raises a very interesting point Kudo's and you're right these claims can easily go into millions if you leave a child permanently disabled. The situation could happen if you crash into a car or cause a car to hit someone as a result of your bike riding.

As to the question of insurance.. I have a free £50,000 travel insurance policy with Nationwide which has some generous clauses in it.. it covers me travelling in the UK and overseas anywhere (on any mode of transport) and another benefit is liability for accidents and it goes up to £2 million I think. However I have no idea whether that would be valid if you were on the wrong side of the law driving an illegal "motor vehicle"..probably not!

So Yeah, you make an important argument I think, that you need to think about the LIABILITY you could be under, your life would be ruined/bankrupted etc.. it's just not worth the risk. People say "oh I'm careful, it will never happen" etc, why take the chance when you can get insured? Either get the bike registered as a vehicle (it doesn't even cost that much to do) or get a proper electric moped etc.. or just stay within the law.

 

[flecc]

I meant it more the other way round, Flecc. When the temperature's below freezing, you would be able to run all day at max power without anything over-heating, so when the motor's rated at 250w, at what temperature is that? Presumably manufacturers have to include the possibility of the bike being used in temperatures of 40 deg plus.

Thanks Dave, understood and agreed, I thouhht you were thinking of winter battery performance.

 

[flecc]

I'm at a complete loss reading this. Unless I am cycling from traffic light to traffic light or taking on a hefty hill, my speed is hardly ever below 15mph (more usually 16-19mph on flat to moderate hilly and easily up to 30mph+ on a DH in a higher gear), and my bike can hardly be described as light at 24,4kg plus about 5kg+ of security equipment in the rack bag to help make sure it's still mine when I come out of the Farm Shop.

The motor makes little to no difference to the pedalling effort to ride at these speeds and it's not hard with a slightly lighter bike to top 20mph+. So how does the imposition of a speed cap of 15.5mph make the least bit of difference from a safety point of view ? The only effect it really has is to make sure I have to remove 2 layers if I want to still be dry when I reach my destination and shell out for baselayers with expensive "wicking properties"on top of the bike !

This view of cycling is peculiarly British, sporting biased. In the days when most of this country were utility cyclists as normal elsewhere in Europe, a typical cycling speed was around 12 mph, often lower and rarely over 15 mph. That is the basis of the law, to help utility cyclists of all ages and varying cycling ability. It does not seek to accommodate those who clearly do not need assistance. That's logical and sensible.

 

[morphix]

Unless you have an accident and hurt somebody-a 30mph heavy bike running into a child could cause long term injuries-I realise it was an auto accident but I am reading now a £23million lifetime settlement for a teenager who is a lifetime wheelchair user,the driver was fortunately fully insured-with an illegal bike causing such injuries would you be insured?
It is interesting that my insurance company,for my product liability insurance, has placed greater excess on my ebike sales than my rally parts business,with rally cars going through forests at 150mph,they perceive the bike business as greater risk.
Please don't start another long winded thread about a well worn subject,just consider the risk of riding an illegal bike.
Dave
Kudoscycles

I think you would have to check with your insurance company if you have a policy like I do for travel/product, public liability.. I would definitely not assume it's covered.. In fact, I'd say it's more than likely the insurance would not cover an event caused by illegal action or a vehicle deemed illegal to be on the road.. would a car insurance cover you for that? I doubt it.