Fastest climber?

[Wisper Bikes]

Why is the kettle plug dangerous and illegal?????

I saw in one of your manuals that you also use or were using this kettle plug in your batteries??? Is there any problem with them?

Also you seem to be very sensitive David to all the bikes that have a curvy tubes. i noticed that you claim that all the bikes that use curvy bent tubes are copies of Wisper 905. That silver bike of Bruce in fact may have some similarities to your frame it is a totally different design, Firstly is awful and has a massive head tube that is not needed. Secondly is also totally different in terms of shape, bending angles, controller box etc.

I surprised you claim it as a copy of your bike. You certainly don't have any exclusivity for the curvy tubing and everyone is allowed to use them. i worked in the bike shop for many years and seen hundreds of different push bikes. I tell you that if every manufacturer thinks like you then they would all be blaming each other for making clones and copies because the normal push bikes industry is so saturated.

Remember bike is a bike, it is built from about 4 different tubes excluding the head and seat tube. You are therefore very limited to what you can do in terms of design. To me claiming that anyone who uses slightly similar shape to your frame is a clone maker is totally ridiculous. Bruce does not advertise his bikes as Wispers or similar to Wispers so you should not call him a clone maker. I'm certainly not keeping his side and neither yours but trying to be very neutral. BTW I really do think that Bruce's collection is awful and sucks with cheap Chinese bikes but i would not call him a copy maker.

And the last one who is Phill that you are talking ABOUT, did not get it at all?

best regards

Alex

Hi Alex of course you are absolutely correct and to be frank the silver one is not a problem, the bikes that get me down are the black framed versions that are made to look as close to a Wisper as possible. I find it amazing that although these people insist they are not copying our bike, the webs and curves are all in about the same places!

I do get tired and emotional too easily (I should probably take a holiday! ), I simply can't help becoming annoyed when people blatantly try and pass their machines off as Wisper bikes.

The Phil comment was not really for the Forum, it will only make sense to those 100% in the picture. I think it is probably too late to delete it though.

Thanks for your comments Alex, I appreciate your concern.

We stopped using the kettle plug quite a long time ago now on all our bikes. The problem is that it is easy to plug the mains supply straight into the battery if the same connector that should go into the charger can also be fitted straight into the battery.

All the best

David

 

[eTim]

We stopped using the kettle plug quite a long time ago now on all our bikes. The problem is that it is easy to plug the mains supply straight into the battery if the same connector that should go into the charger can also be fitted straight into the battery.

Darwin award prevention

But they are legal ?

 

[flecc]

Out of interest David, have you ever considered licencing the 905 frame design to the makers of the clones? .

Adding to what David has said, associating one's name with other products can be a dangerous route to take.

Rolls Royce tried it from 1964 by supplying a Rolls B series engine for the Austin Princess R limousine. The poor nature of that car did them no favours, and that, plus an earlier unwise association with Austin seriously dented their image.

By 1970 Rolls Royce were insolvent, brought to their knees by the car division. The aircraft engine division continued as the Rolls Royce company, but with no more cars. A completely separate and new company, Rolls Royce (1971) Limited, was formed to recommence making the car brand.
.

 

[alex_h]

Black is Black

Hi Alex of course you are absolutely correct and to be frank the silver one is not a problem, the bikes that get me down are the black framed versions that are made to look as close to a Wisper as possible. I find it amazing that although these people insist they are not copying our bike, the webs and curves are all in about the same places!

Hi David,

Thanks for the response. You mention the black framed bikes. Still the black colour is still black and only black. When I worked in the bike shop I saw every year that the collections of all brands were so similar. One year most of them was black matt, another year a glossy black. It the bike industry the bikes are also dictated by the trends in the market.

This year i noticed that there is a trend for black frames and white frames as well. Nearly half of the bikes in the industry is do do with these colours.

So to me if someone will use the black frame and curvy tubing plus electric motor will certainly be not a copy of Wisper or any other brand.

A copy will be something that looks exactly like Wisper and is claimed to be branded as Wisper.

To clarify you that you need to understand how the market works. Look at the mobile phones industry. Since introduction of I-phone all the manufacturers including NOKIA, SAMSUNG and Sony have moved to the TOUCH SCREENED phones. 90% of all touch screens is BLACK David, and they all look so similar to each other and they all do similar things (twitter, skype, face books, web browsers etc)

Please ask yourself a questions.

Is Samsung Omnia a clone of Apples I-phone?

Is Nokia N97, N900, X6 a copy of Aplles I-phone?

To me The answer is NO David, they are not. They are all different and despite that they are all touch screened and all are BLACK and all look similar to each other they are NOT CLONES of I-phone.

Now same with your Wisper 905. You have to understand that these bikes that are black and have a curvy tubing are not clones as long as they don't claim to be branded as ''Wispers or similar to Wispers''

BLACK colour and bendy tubes are not exclusive to Wisper or any other brand. This is a current market trend and what really has to distinguish these brands is the technology and after sales customer care.

I really think you have a good bikes and despite few things that really suck in Wispers you do very well. You should certainly chill out man and go for a holiday, Bahamas or Margaritta is a nice place to stay in March.

Best regards

Alex

 

[Fecn]

To clarify you that you need to understand how the market works. Look at the mobile phones industry. Since introduction of I-phone all the manufacturers including NOKIA, SAMSUNG and Sony have moved to the TOUCH SCREENED phones. 90% of all touch screens is BLACK David, and they all look so similar to each other and they all do similar things (twitter, skype, face books, web browsers etc)

There are plenty of clone iPhones out there though... one even says iPhone on the back,

For example... DealExtreme: $156.05 M80 Dual-/Tri-band GSM 3.2" Touch LCD Cell Phone (Unlocked + Bluetooth + 1GB Memory Built-in)*EMS
and... DealExtreme: $187.00 iOrgane F1+ 900Mhz Triband 3.2" Multi-Touch Screen GSM Cell Phone*EMS
and... DealExtreme: $177.90 MiPhone M88 3.2" Touch LCD Windows Mobile 6.0 Pro Triband GSM + Wifi + 2*Camera PDA Cell Phone*EMS

I believe that a lot of these products are reffered to as 'third shift' products... whereby the tooling, jigs, computer code and machinery which has been used on behalf of the manufacturer gets cloned/copied/re-used by someone else.

I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that some of the wisper copies came off Wisper's old discarded frame jigs at some time. There are some very close copies out there (but I wouldn't call the bearprint bikes even remotely close... just look at that terrible welding.)

 

[alex_h]

There are plenty of clone iPhones out there though... one even says iPhone on the back,

For example... DealExtreme: $156.05 M80 Dual-/Tri-band GSM 3.2" Touch LCD Cell Phone (Unlocked + Bluetooth + 1GB Memory Built-in)*EMS
and... DealExtreme: $187.00 iOrgane F1+ 900Mhz Triband 3.2" Multi-Touch Screen GSM Cell Phone*EMS
and... DealExtreme: $177.90 MiPhone M88 3.2" Touch LCD Windows Mobile 6.0 Pro Triband GSM + Wifi + 2*Camera PDA Cell Phone*EMS

I believe that a lot of these products are reffered to as 'third shift' products... whereby the tooling, jigs, computer code and machinery which has been used on behalf of the manufacturer gets cloned/copied/re-used by someone else.

I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that some of the wisper copies came off Wisper's old discarded frame jigs at some time. There are some very close copies out there (but I wouldn't call the bearprint bikes even remotely close... just look at that terrible welding.)

Thanks Fecn for that,

yes that is really good example of i-phones clones. these phones look exactly the same and these are certainly a knock off copies of i-phone.

My example of real Nokias and Samsung phones was to show David that there is something like ''current trend and fashion'' in the industry and this also applies to bikes and electric bikes and he just can't claim everything that is black and curvy to be a clone of his bike.

maybe David will be like Gary Fisher one day being considered as Guru of mountain Biking . David will be a Guru of curvy framed black electric bikes.

 

[flecc]

he just can't claim everything that is black and curvy to be a clone of his bike.

Some black and curvy items that can be ridden aren't even bikes.
.

 

[alex_h]

Some black and curvy items that can be ridden aren't even bikes.
.

well said Flecc

 

[eTim]

Some black and curvy items that can be ridden aren't even bikes.
.

Unless they are the local bikes

 

[Straylight]

Another thought I had to enable some sort redress in the 'clone wars', was to ask why Wisper doesn't make their 905/906 frames available for kit builders? These could have the logo on them without fear of brand damage, after all every other bike component proudly proclaims its manufacturer. I also think this is a gap in the market, as with most kits there is the perennial problem of what to do with the battery. The best at the moment (with the exception of the Bionx and pending the Wisper kit) seems to be the two tier back-rack, the immediate disadvantage being a raised centre of gravity.

As a side note, I've just worked out I have eleven different manufacturers' trademarks on my bike at the moment , thirteen if I include the pannier and the tiny ones on the chain...

 

[flecc]

Another thought I had to enable some sort redress in the 'clone wars', was to ask why Wisper doesn't make their 905/906 frames available for kit builders?

Giant do something similar in that they often make frames as well as whole bikes for many other manufacturers, but they don't put their name on these products which I think a safer course. I think people will tend to view the frame name as the bike, something less likely with the bits and pieces. The following quote is from Kerry Roberts, past president of the National Bicycle Dealers Association in the USA:

[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Giant - You may have ridden a bicycle made by Giant without knowing it! Giant is the world's largest bicycle manufacturer with factories in Taiwan, China, and Europe. Giant, a Taiwanese company started in 1972, manufacturers their own bikes - including the carbon bikes, which is unique in the industry (i.e., most other brands utilize other manufacturers such as Advanced or Martec).

In addition to making their own bikes, Giant also makes, or has made, bikes for many other prominent brands, including Trek, Specialized, Schwinn, and Bianchi. Giant's claim to fame is that they have the most sophisticated and efficient manufacturing facilities in the bicycle industry.
.
[/FONT]

 

[Straylight]

Ok, but do you take my point with regard for the need for an ebike specific frame?

Most people who retrofit their bikes won't take the care to re-brand them as you did with your q-bike, which leads me to wonder what the likes of Brompton et al think when they see their machines being redesigned with ugly battery boxes and additional wiring.

I must add that some kit conversions are very discreet,and IMHO don't mar the aesthetics of the original machine, but I think we can agree that some really do.

 

[flecc]

Ok, but do you take my point with regard for the need for an ebike specific frame?

Definitely, there is a real need for a frame for kit builders that can accommodate a battery, preferably in a couple of battery size versions.

As things stand, the potential market is probably a bit too small, though there is one way in which it could be larger. Individual makers could set up in business producing custom e-bikes using those kit frames, there is always a market for uniqueness and quality.

Otherwise, one route is to use one of the many excellent frame builders that we have in Britain to produce an individual one. Frames from these makers cost from about £300 upwards, but an e-bike frame design to include battery space would push up the minimum price for as one of these to around £500 probably.

Since frames don't wear out as such, one could always buy a cheap failed second hand e-bike, salvage the frame and have it resprayed to new standards. That could work out as little as £200.
.

 

[Straylight]

As things stand, the potential market is probably a bit too small, though there is one way in which it could be larger. Individual makers could set up in business producing custom e-bikes using those kit frames, there is always a market for uniqueness and quality.

This is why I was wondering why an existing ebike manufacturer doesn't make their frames available in this way (logo'd or not), as if someone's going to replicate your style, then they may as well do it properly, and you may as well get some financial compensation. If you think that the clones are weakening your brand, then what have you got to lose?

I know it's a completely different sector, but Lever/Proctor & Gamble are responsible for the bulk of seemingly competing brands of washing powder, as to them it's all about market share.

 

[flecc]

I agree, it's all extra income and no damage can result if a supplied product is unbranded. Many e-bike makers do have very limited manufacturing facilities though, so that could be as reason for reluctance.
.

 

[Fecn]

Hi Bruce,

Not trying to diss your bikes... but just for your reference... it was this shot from your PDF brochure which caused me to comment on the welding. I am sure the welds are strong enough, but I have seen more cosmetically pleasing welding on other bikes. (For the record.. I've never seen either a Wisper or any of Bruce's bikes in the flesh)

 

[flecc]

As to the six gears, we find that in practice the 7th ratio on the 7 speed bikes tends to involve a lower 1st gear which is never used - too low to be used in practice. The issue is not the numbers of gears, but the ratios between them.

But I don't pretend to be the only expert on this in the world. I would love to hear yours and others' views on gearing.

Six speed cassettes and freewheels typically having around a 200% range are generally accepted to have too narrow an overall gear range to cope with all environments. When faced with our toughest hills, even when motor aided, they don't meet the needs, especially for the less than optimally fit who tend to buy e-bikes.

For that reason Shimano many years ago introduced the Megarange variants, these having a group of normally spaced sprockets enabling the usual fast gear changing, plus an extra large back sprocket to cope with extremes. Here's one of them, a seven sprocket, but these megarange sets come with anything from six to eight sprockets:

Many dislike these and they are certainly bad for maintaining the consistent cadence necessary on unassisted bikes, but they can work well with e-bikes where the upper gears cope with most things and the emergency low gear copes with the odd extreme hill or getting home in flat battery or breakdown situations. These megarange units typically have the overall range extended, to between 240% and 300%, though those over 240% are difficult to source these days.

Around 240/250% is about the minimum gear range for an e-bike if it's to be sold for use in the hillier areas of the UK, and that's one reason why the SRAM P5 hub gear found favour with some e-bike manufacturers. It's 252% range fairly evenly spaced across just five gears precisely fitted most circumstances with e-bikes, though it's rather slow gear change has caused it to fall from favour now.
.

 

[eddieo]

Bruce was told 6 gears where considered inadequate, late last year when he initially started posting on here discussing his plans for E bikes.

 

[brucehawsker]

Branded parts - most of our parts are branded and would be instrantly recognised - happy to elaborate if required. Most of our buyers are not that interested we find, and the bike brochure is targetted at buyers who are not specialists

"Six gears is cheap."

I am learning loads and this forum is really helping me understand some of the issues. Please bear in mind that at Berprint I am the marketing guy, not the technical expert - except perhaps on batteries.

I have learned loads about gears today. Thank you to flecc for stimulating the debate, and for Mussels driving me to challenge our designer, and for Eddieo's reminder (which was too late - bikes had been ordered before then.... but thank you anyway)..

My concern - perhaps as the tidy minded scientist rather than the expert biker - is to ensure the gear ratios are correct and cover a wide enough range.

Looking at the industry standard Wisper City in this part of the market, we see a 48 tooth crank and seven sprocket mega range Shimano (34 to 15 teeth) as described by flecc. Unless I am missing something, this means a ratio of 1.4 at low gear, rising to 3.2 at high gear.

I compare that to our typical configuration on our City which has a 46 tooth crank and a six sprocket Shimano (28 to 15 teeth) which means we have a ratio of 1.6 at low gear, and 3.1 at high gear. For those doing a large amount of hill climbing, or for elder clients who tend not to go fast, we offer a 38 tooth crank giving 1.4 and 2.5.

Our monuntain bike is higer geared with a 48 crank giving 1.7 and 3.2.

I do not think these solutions are 'cheap' - more like 'comprehensive'.

But come on guys, this is the knock Bruce 'open season' Please let me know if I am blowing bubbles!! If I am wrong, please tell me....

 

[alex_h]

Branded parts - most of our parts are branded and would be instrantly recognised - happy to elaborate if required. Most of our buyers are not that interested we find, and the bike brochure is targetted at buyers who are not specialists

"Six gears is cheap."

I am learning loads and this forum is really helping me understand some of the issues. Please bear in mind that at Berprint I am the marketing guy, not the technical expert - except perhaps on batteries.

I have learned loads about gears today. Thank you to flecc for stimulating the debate, and for Mussels driving me to challenge our designer, and for Eddieo's reminder (which was too late - bikes had been ordered before then.... but thank you anyway)..

My concern - perhaps as the tidy minded scientist rather than the expert biker - is to ensure the gear ratios are correct and cover a wide enough range.

Looking at the industry standard Wisper City in this part of the market, we see a 48 tooth crank and seven sprocket mega range Shimano (34 to 15 teeth) as described by flecc. Unless I am missing something, this means a ratio of 1.4 at low gear, rising to 3.2 at high gear.

I compare that to our typical configuration on our City which has a 46 tooth crank and a six sprocket Shimano (28 to 15 teeth) which means we have a ratio of 1.6 at low gear, and 3.1 at high gear. For those doing a large amount of hill climbing, or for elder clients who tend not to go fast, we offer a 38 tooth crank giving 1.4 and 2.5.

Our monuntain bike is higer geared with a 48 crank giving 1.7 and 3.2.

I do not think these solutions are 'cheap' - more like 'comprehensive'.

But come on guys, this is the knock Bruce 'open season' Please let me know if I am blowing bubbles!! If I am wrong, please tell me....

Hi Bruce,

Would you be able to tell us (me) who manufacturers your battery, perhaps give a web address? I'm sure me and many other members would love to learn more about their technology and chemistry. I think manufacturers shoudl not cover who makes their battery as any other parts on the bike. unless they are shamed or scared of telling others who make the battery for them.