Fascism returns to Spain
- Thread starter mike killay
- Start date
Dangerous times and it will be interesting to see how the events of the next few days and weeks unfold, particularly the role of the Guardia Civil, always seen as Franco's enforcers while he wielded power and never really trusted even today by the older generation with long memories.
If the Spanish government play this badly, we could see the rebirth of ETA and the possibility of a bloodbath again on Spanish soil. EU officials and French politicians will be monitoring this situation very closely for obvious reasons.
Tom
It never left, they just changed the name of the political party to Partido Popular. At the beginning the people were even the same! With the birth of democracy the Socialist party got into power but to avoid a bloodbath (they had already had one of those) they just wiped the slate clean and people responsible for the death of other people walked free.
The Basque ETA continued killing PP politicians until early this century, stopped in 2010 and this year gave up its weapons.
The Basque ETA continued killing PP politicians until early this century, stopped in 2010 and this year gave up its weapons.
You are right about the lack of justice for the many major atrocities carried out and you are also correct about the ETA situation over the last few years.
I think it is worth mentioning that Catalans and Basques are not one and the same. They share contiguous parts of northern Spain but the Catalans are essentially Spanish in that they don't live also in France. Their neighbours to the west, the Basques, are distinctly different from Spanish people - their DNA or certainly parts of their genetic code are not common with that of other races on the European mainland - and they exist both in NW Spain and SW France.
What they share is a desire for self-determination, a wish to be free from the Madrid government. It is that part that I find troubling as if unrest erupts in Catalonia, the Basques may see that as an opportunity to renew their claims for separatism. When demonstrations by the public are swiftly dealt with by paramilitary police, brutality by those forces is frequently employed and news agencies find they have great difficulty getting anywhere near the centre of the action.
Oppression of the people by a fascist government lasted about 40 years in Spain and those old enough will remember that General Franco was still the de facto ruler there until 1975.
Tom
Catalans do live in France. Area to south of Perpignan Catalan, with many locals often speaking Catalan ( a language more closely linked to Italian than either French or Spanish)
I lived in Laroque Des Alberes ( France) for 9 years. All road signs are in Catalan, bar below our house was " The Catalan" and all older villagers spoke Catalan . Catalan is taught in many French schools in the region.
In a conversation with a proud Catalan from the village told me he didn't realise he was French until asked to fight in the 2nd world war. The Catalan flag flies from every prominent point between Perpignan and Barcelona. If anything it was my experience the French Catalans ( a term they would not recognise, they are Catalans first) are more fervent in their desire for Catalan recognition than those south of the border..
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Thank you for correcting me. It is true some Catalans reside in the south of France but only somewhat less than half of the Basque population on the French side. In fact, the total number of 'French' Catalans at the last count was around 110,000, which very closely resembles the population of Boris Johnson's Uxbridge and S Ruislip constituency, so not that many really although with far higher IQs I would hazard!
The Basque numbers in France may be as many as 239,000, about the same population as Portsmouth, but as these little charts from Wiki reveal, (thank you Wiki!) Catalans have a far greater 'diaspora' than the Basques who are condensed into a much tighter area and Catalans generally don't speak Basque as far as I know although both groups share Spanish and French to varying degrees.
To add some relevance to those numbers, something over 300,000 British ex-pats live in Spain alone.
Interestingly, the extremists of both pro-independence groups seem never to have combined as terrorist units, ETA being the long-proscribed armed Basque wing, while there have been several small Catalan terror groups, particularly active through the 1970s and 1980s.
Catalans
Total population
c. 5.5 million
Regions with significant populations
Spain (people born in Catalonia) 4,800,000[1]
Argentina (estimates vary)188,000
France 110,000
Mexico 63,000
Germany 48,000
Peru 39,000
Andorra 29,000
Italy (Algherese Catalans in Alghero, Sardinia) 23,000
Chile 16,000
Venezuela 6,200
Cuba 3,600
USA (estimates vary) 700-1,738 [1][2]
Ecuador 850 [3]
Languages
Catalan (native); Spanish and French (as a result of immigration or language shift)
ReligionChristianity (Catholicism)[4]
Related ethnic groupsAragonese, Andorrans, Balearics, Occitans, Valencians, other Latin peoples
Basques
Euskaldunak
Total population c. 3 million worldwide
Regions with significant populations
Spain (people living in the Basque Provinces of Spain, including some areas where most people do not identify themselves as Basque) 2,410,000
France (people living in the Basque Provinces of France, not all of whom identify as Basque) 239,000[1]
United States (self-identifying as having Basque ancestry) 57,793[3]
Languages
Religion
Christianity (Catholicism)[4] Others
Tom
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I don't see why it would necessarily leave. The people's living in those regions were born into the European union area and therefore have the rights that go with it. You are harking back to the propaganda from the time of the Scottish referendum. I am not sure that there were pronouncements from the official sides of the eu or the ecj at the time .Perhaps I can be corrected? . One of the sticking points in the current brexit
talks is the treatment of all European citizens including those listed as UK subjects.
Therein lies the problem Tom. It depends who is doing the counting and who is drawing the maps. To the victor not only the spoils of war, they get chance to write history. Pyrenees Oriental and Languedoc Roussillon consider themselves Catalan..( more so towards south but are less political and more settled than people in Northern Spain but my bet would be if Catalans living in Spain vote for independence in their ( as reported by Spain) illegal referendum , it will prove problematic for France. There are way more than 110,000 Catalans in France..( There are more than that in Perpignan alone. The massacre of Catalans was predominantly in what is now France. Fraternite, Egalite,Liberte didn't really apply to the Catalans. Ask anyone who knows anything about rugby where Catalans play? Catalan Dragons home ground is Perpignan.
The entire region supports both Barcelona football, with their political leanings toward Catalan and The Catalan Dragons for theirs.
But Catalan isn't a member of the EU until accepted as such, so their citizens would no longer have EU rights, just as we in the UK won't when we leave the EU.
Brexit sticking pojnts aren't relevant since it's a negotiated departure. Catalan is proposing UDI, which would leave it in an international limbo, like Abkhazia which did the same. That country is only recognised by the awkward squad, Russia, Venezuela, Nicaragua and a small Pacific island.
.
It is all about xenophobia, the Catalan and Basque areas are rich and industrial and they don't want to pay for the Gypsies of Andalusia... Besides that Catalan politicians are just as corrupt as those in Madrid, Pujol took billions of Euros (read that number out loud) in under the table payment for public works contracts. Much of those billions was EU money.
Basque auto determination is more wide sweeping than that of other regions of Spain because they put forward the case that they had suffered more by Francos hand than the other regions. I am reasonably integrated here and used to have some conversations about independence. I no longer have those because I asked "OK independence, what for? What is the project?" and there were no convincing answers. On this side the independentists want to leave the EU, on the other side that isn't so clear. Podemos has a very large following down south taking foothold in what were once the political branch of ETA's strongholds.
Basque auto determination is more wide sweeping than that of other regions of Spain because they put forward the case that they had suffered more by Francos hand than the other regions. I am reasonably integrated here and used to have some conversations about independence. I no longer have those because I asked "OK independence, what for? What is the project?" and there were no convincing answers. On this side the independentists want to leave the EU, on the other side that isn't so clear. Podemos has a very large following down south taking foothold in what were once the political branch of ETA's strongholds.
Couldn't agree more on your point about public works contracts / roads etc. There are absolutely superb roads around region that simply go nowhere...entire villages were renovated, unfortunately it made no difference to the real social problems in both Northern Spain and Souhern France ( but to a lesser degree) The money lined the pockets of both contractors and minor officials. (In France many officials served prison sentences over the debacle, not sure any did in Spain..In my experience most officials in both regions saw their position as a,way to easy money. ( ie planning permission)
There is lots of poverty side by side with Barcelona football players. ( Many live around border )
The place is corrupt. Its why I left.
There is lots of poverty side by side with Barcelona football players. ( Many live around border )
The place is corrupt. Its why I left.
There is a lot of truth in your assertions 'anotherkiwi'. As one who has been a part-time resident of southern Spain for two decades, I have been acutely aware of the paucity of fresh water in Andalusia, the need for which has grown immensely over the years as a result of the boom in tourism since the 1960s.
Only a few years ago did my local water company finally begin supplying tap water that is ok to drink, thus alleviating the need to visit the local fuente armed with large plastic containers and/or trips to the supermarket to stock up with 8ltr bottles of the stuff.
For many years there was a plan to tap into the huge river Ebro and channel water south to the major veg-growing areas of southern Spain where much of Europe's veg supplies originate. The Spanish have become amazingly proficient in growing produce under various forms of material resembling plastic, some of it very high tech while other material is very basic.
To that end various aquaducts were constructed with a view to irrigating the southern part of the country but the plan has never been progressed due to objections from rich northerners who have publicly expressed the opinion that they shouldn't have to pay for a project just so rich southern entrepreneurs can water the burgeoning number of golf courses around the costas and make fortunes from rich foreign tourists.
As Spain's biggest income is from tourism and they are one of Europe's biggest fruit and veg exporters, I disagree with that view, especially as EU money would almost certainly pay for the bulk of such a project.
However, 'anotherkiwi' is right to mention that a large number of gypsies live in southern Spain and there is quite a bit of animosity toward them from many in the north. Although overt racism isn't really seen by most visitors, there are still tensions running just under the surface of Spanish society which occasionally manifest themselves in one way or another but to all intents and purposes, most people get along most of the time.
In one of my local freeby newspapers a few years ago, a journalist had done some research (claimed) which revealed that Spain had imprisoned more Mayors and public officials than any other country in the world for corruption. I don't know if that is factually correct but it wouldn't surprise me as I read frequently of local bigwigs in various parts of Andalusia being convicted for corrupt practices, usually involving large construction companies and permissions to build in places where no such permission should ever have been allowed.
Having said all that, it seems from news this last week that UK holiday bookings already confirmed for summer 2018 reveal a huge increase in Spanish trips to the detriment of a lot of other countries deemed by the public now to be a bit too risky.
Tom
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When I read articles like that I am inclined to ask "who benefits"? From formented strife in Europe. The Russians? , the Americans? . There are fractures in every society , rivalries between towns, football clubs, religious groups etc. All it takes is cleverness in exploiting these differences so who benefits?
There's an interesting little article on the BBC website today concerning a time when French-Spanish relations produced more enterprising ambition than seems to be the case over recent times.
I had read previously of the existence of this particular train station and wondered why it had been allowed to to fall into disrepair. This article sheds some light:
magazine-41445860
Tom
I had read previously of the existence of this particular train station and wondered why it had been allowed to to fall into disrepair. This article sheds some light:
magazine-41445860
Tom
Wonderful place! I haven't been for a while, last time was about 5 years ago, I drove over the pass the first week it was open, great fun stopping and walking around on the snow in the hot end of May sunshine. The high speed line that menaces to totally disfigure the Basque coast should have been planned through that station. Shorter route to Madrid, less environmental impact using existing infrastructure upgraded for TGV. Leaving beautiful coastal tourist scenery unspoiled. Politics...
The local ones on this side managed to refuse EU money to continue the "Topo" line from San Sebastian to Bayonne which meant a commuter train every half hour all day from Bilbao to Bayonne. Instead we have endless traffic jams on saturated roads (except us pedelec riders
) and the pollution that goes with it. They have woken to the idea that it would be good for the local economy and are promising it for 2028 (or was that 2032?) when it could have been done 25 years ago.
The local ones on this side managed to refuse EU money to continue the "Topo" line from San Sebastian to Bayonne which meant a commuter train every half hour all day from Bilbao to Bayonne. Instead we have endless traffic jams on saturated roads (except us pedelec riders
) and the pollution that goes with it. They have woken to the idea that it would be good for the local economy and are promising it for 2028 (or was that 2032?) when it could have been done 25 years ago.
Government-authorised thuggery and brutality seems to be the Spanish government's only answer to people wishing to express their wishes in a ballot.
The film footage which has emerged of police officers using weapons against fire officers trying to protect their fellow citizens so they can cast a vote is chilling. This represents exactly the resort to fascism Mike Killay drew to attention in the opening post of this thread.
Some see this as a necessary element of the maintenance of the rule of law but they are wrong. This is simply another manifestation of the rule of the most powerful over the weak and serves to demonstrate that Spain is not the democracy it would like the outside world to believe. I could easily go into a rant about this great democratic lie but I won't. Suffice to say that the rich Spanish powerbrokers' notion that they may continue to do as they please and get away with it just because they restored the monarchy in a purely puppet capacity has not worked. Fascism and corruption ruined Spain and those fascists have never really gone away.
Tom
The film footage which has emerged of police officers using weapons against fire officers trying to protect their fellow citizens so they can cast a vote is chilling. This represents exactly the resort to fascism Mike Killay drew to attention in the opening post of this thread.
Some see this as a necessary element of the maintenance of the rule of law but they are wrong. This is simply another manifestation of the rule of the most powerful over the weak and serves to demonstrate that Spain is not the democracy it would like the outside world to believe. I could easily go into a rant about this great democratic lie but I won't. Suffice to say that the rich Spanish powerbrokers' notion that they may continue to do as they please and get away with it just because they restored the monarchy in a purely puppet capacity has not worked. Fascism and corruption ruined Spain and those fascists have never really gone away.
Tom