Fantastic battery?!

[Deleted member 25121]

Ok now done 61 miles and the meter is now down by 2 bars so I think I'll check the voltage.

I note the battery has 5 terminals. The identification marks are dificult to read, but if I'm correct they are: In order they are:

TX + RX - V.

A bit nervous as to sticking the meter probes in, so lets hope + and - are in the correct places!

What are the other 3 symbols?

Thanks for evryones help. It's a fascinating subject and I'm learning a lot

Provided your meter is set to the V range you're not going to damage anything however be very careful that the probes don't short across multiple terminals. I would start with the + and - terminals and look for a reading greater than 30V.

 

[John F]

Ok the reading after 61 miles is 35.7V

 

[Woosh]

Ok the reading after 61 miles is 35.7V

that's very impressive pedaling!
630WH * 58% / 61 miles = 6WH per mile

 

[Woosh]

TX + RX - V.

they are extensions for battery monitoring and immobilisation, currently not used.

 

[vfr400]

I would say that at 35.7v, there isn't as much as 42% left. I'd say more like 15%-20%, so more like 8Wh/mile.

 

[Deleted member 25121]

I'm looking forward to John F keeping us updated as to his mileage and voltage...

Thanks John

 

[vfr400]

I'm looking forward to John F keeping us updated as to his mileage and voltage...

Thanks John

Me too. Are you going to bet?

If my estimate is right and he continues with 8 wh/mile, that will give another 16 miles or 77 miles total. That's if he doesn't turn the power right down and pedal hard to try and eek it out. I got 129 miles out of my cheapo 350wh battery like that.

If Woosh is correct, he'll get another 44 miles, taking it to 101 miles

 

[Nealh]

At 35.7 I would say < 30% left and about 20 miles left in the tank at his current assist usage, once lvc comes in then it is time to call it a day and limp home (using PAS 1) if he stays locally within a mile or two of home. A lot will depend on the BMS lvc which is likely not much less then 32v, though once voltage gets a bit lower John will feel the power and speed tapering off and sag being induced.

 

[Deleted member 25121]

Me too. Are you going to bet?

If my estimate is right and he continues with 8 wh/mile, that will give another 16 miles or 77 miles total. That's if he doesn't turn the power right down and pedal hard to try and eek it out. I got 129 miles out of my cheapo 350wh battery like that.

If Woosh is correct, he'll get another 44 miles, taking it to 101 miles

Well, after approx 60 mile the voltage has dropped by approx 60%. If the voltage didn't drop with usage there would be another 40 miles left in the battery but I recon there's only between 25 and 30 miles left in it. As you say though it very much depends on how the remaining energy is used, turn the battery off and their are 1000's of miles left in it.

 

[Woosh]

If my estimate is right and he continues with 8 wh/mile

If you integrate the first 60% (capacity * voltage), you get 404WH/61 miles = 6.6WH
The remaining 226WH if used on the same rate of battery consumption will give up to 34 miles.

the Shengyi motor is fairly economical and the bike weighs only 23kgs, running on 700C tyres and quite easy to pedal without power. 95 mies out of the 17.5AH is excellent but not a record. One customer got more than 100 miles from the Karoo with the same battery.

 

[Nealh]

But we know the battery will not give up all it's 630wh's as Deep SOC is prevented and at a modest 0.5a draw 550wh is about the capacity, the last 0.4v of capacity to 2.8v only containing 80wh or so.
At 1a draw 530 wh is the capacity, most bikes in PAS 1 won't replicate the 0.2a discharge rate the graphs show us and 0.4a - 0.5a is amore likely rate.

 

[Woosh]

But we know the battery will not give up all it's 630wh's as Deep SOC is prevented.
o

True but the Panasonic cells are usually conservatively graded, they guarantee a minimum, so that you may be pleasantly surprised, not disappointed. Also, the 6.6WH/mile is an high estimate.
I wonder if John would want to ride it until it's totally flat?

 

[Nealh]

John can get a theoretical range by riding till sag causes first LVC intervention then note mileage, at this point allow the sag a few secs to rebound above LVC then cycle off home using lowest assist. Once sag induces LVC then it is an indication of cell stress esp in higher PAS level, at this point one should be thinking low PAS (lower current draw) to see you home.

A one off discharge will do little harm at low to mid current draw, it is high current draw that will cause damage.
Any one using a battery to low SOC below the nominal voltage to LVC should do so at a very low assist rate so as not to stress cells, then you can eke out the wh's a bit more.

As we know the cell rating (amps) and mah(capacity) rating doesn't mean you can have the best of both worlds, even in 5P config you can't have both (all the power and capacity out of a battery), early on whilst voltage is high the user is best to use the current but as the voltage lessens you have to be more conservative with usage. It all depends on terrain and usage, if more of a touring type long range ride then frugality is what is needed, if short rides you can harvest more of the power.

 

[sjpt]

Asking again in case anyone who knows missed my question before. What are the trigger voltages between steps on the KM529 battery meter, and for flashing E?

 

[Woosh]

Asking again in case anyone who knows missed my question before. What are the trigger voltages between steps on the KM529 battery meter, and for flashing E?

I have the programmer to flash the King Meter LCDs and Lishui controllers but don't have the software to edit the settings.

 

[sjpt]

I have the programmer to flash the King Meter LCDs and Lishui controllers but don't have the software to edit the settings.

By 'flashing E' I meant the signal that comes up when the battery is very nearly empty; nothing to do with changing the firmware. I don't want to change the voltage levels, just wondered what they are to help me interpret what the battery level is telling me.

 

[John F]

No update today folks as I'm a fair weather cyclist, so some further clarifications and queries.

1) USEAGE SO FAR - I don't claim to be an athlete, though my legs are fine but perhaps slowed down by my 73 year. My riding in the 61 miles has not been lazy - I try to put some effort in all the time. I tend to keep between 12 and 15 mph, nearly always on power setting 3. I've used setting 5 just for a few seconds on a couple of short hills only. Low wind speeds most of the time.
2) KING METER INDICATIONS - Why did my meter still say FULL after 30 miles? This seems to contradict all the reducing voltage graphs etc that you are all talking about?
3) PERCEPTION OF POWER GENERATED BY THE MOTOR - I've noticed that quite often the motor is very quiet, certainly quiter than my previous crank drive bike. almost to the point that I thought it might have cut out (lower than the cut off point) Does that mean that the power has reduced significantly to reflect the situation? Can Woosh explain how this works as I don't understand how the power is produced? Is it pedal pressure or a sensor somewhere? Thanks
4) SINE WAVE CONTROLLER - what are the characteristics of this controller? How is it different from my previous (non sine wave?) one?
5) ANTICIPATED FINAL FEW MILES - So it would be preferable then, at a certain mileage, to reduce the power, to reduce any adverse effects on the battery? I'm not wanting to break any battery range records as I'm really pleased with the performance. So the plan is to do another 10 miles, recheck my voltage and then perhaps recharge at that point.
6) COMMENT ON REAR HUB DRIVE - I keep reading about hub motors been inferior to crank drives on hills? Frankly I've been impressed so far in this respect with my rear hub motor, and I can't realy say that I've had to push any harder on hills than before

 

[Woosh]

I keep reading about hub motors been inferior to crank drives on hills?

there are 7 years of progress in the motor and controller between your two bikes.

 

[Nealh]

1. Although greater range isn't an issue try a test by comparing PAS 2 vs PAS 3, do 20 miles or so in each PAS having fully charged the battery each time then note the voltage of each test. You will likely find that PAS 2 is sufficient and only higher PAS is needed for inclines.
2. The meter readings aren't very linear, though saying that the KT ones are a bit better at giving a better idea of range left. The only way of knowing battery level is an lcd with voltage read out or the use of a watt meter to shoe ah/wh usage.
3. With PAS as you reach the speed cut off or the motor rpm threshold point, power/watts supply by the controller ramps down. You see this with an lcd showing watts supplied.
4. Sine wave uses a different signal and provides smoother power to the motor vs square wave/unsensored drives, the three main sensors in the hub/controller communicate signals for a quieter smother drive.
5. Once you are more tuned in to the what the lcd tells you battery state wise and you are more accustomed to what to expected range wise, then yes it is better to manage your battery discharge by using a lower PAS level to be kinder to the cells. Being kinder to the cells/managing the discharge will maintain capacity longer over the batteries life.
6. Not all hubs are the same , some do the job better then others. Winding speed/rpm is one major factor.

 

[Woosh]

3) PERCEPTION OF POWER GENERATED BY THE MOTOR - I've noticed that quite often the motor is very quiet, certainly quiter than my previous crank drive bike. almost to the point that I thought it might have cut out (lower than the cut off point) Does that mean that the power has reduced significantly to reflect the situation? Can Woosh explain how this works as I don't understand how the power is produced? Is it pedal pressure or a sensor somewhere? Thanks

the controller and pedal sensor work the same way as before, the main difference is the new motor has Hall sensors, making low power delivery much smoother and quieter as the electrical pulses are delivered much more accurately at low speed.
The quality of the ballbearings is also higher.
That why the new motor is quieter.
For optimum range, keep assist level low and use the throttle to boost power when you climb.