Failed on my first big hill

[(NoLongerRegistered#15675)]

But we are not saying that. The 250 watt rating is purely nominal for legal purposes, virtually all e-bikes put out far more than that as I've already explained. Even that you argued with, wrongly.

What we are saying is that there are hub motors that do compete in those circumstances, making your sweeping statements about CD superiority wrong. Those that compete are the high power hub motors designed for high torque in hill climbing. I've explained that in several ways, but you are trying to wriggle it back to an equal motor situation which none of us have said.

Faced with hills there's a simple choice:

1) Limited power used through low gears to climb slowly.

2) Single geared high power to climb more rapidly.
.

No I,m saying I,m climbing with less current than hub drive on steep hills..you inferred rest...as usual.

 

[(NoLongerRegistered#15675)]

How on Earth did you come to that conclusion? It seems to me that when facts don't fit your own unfounded theories, you make up facts to justify them.
Who are these racing cyclists on the forum that only ride short fast rides? Please name them so that we can have a laugh.

Yep I,m learning from masters like you on here..

 

[anotherkiwi]

You know exactly what was meant...dont pretend to be thick...but then again ???

It is an electrically assisted bicycle. The gears are there for the power, the motor is there to assist. The above journey was done on a 10.4 Ah battery which gave up 50 meters before the top of the last hill. That is 5.2 watts per kilometre is that what your CD is using?

 

[flecc]

Bringing in torque sensor and fitness are pure red herrings.
What's point of buying a £1500 ebike and been told get fit to use it.
Barmy.

This shows you really are making a fool of yourself by not understanding enough.

As already explained, I gave up on my last CD bike since a very long slow climb I have was exhausting due to the effort required by the torque sensor to get enough from the motor. Instead I climb it much faster and with far less effort using a hub motor without torque sensing.

That paragraph shows that torque sensors and fitness are not red herrings but very relevant.

Our pedelecs are all legally and in fact electric assist, requiring us to make good any shortfall. To do that adequately getting the best from our bikes, we need to be reasonably fit.
.

 

[Plasmadaddy]

So much anger on this forum.......!

 

[(NoLongerRegistered#15675)]

Seems to me reading threads, examing my own experiences on ebikes that if a rider is capable of getting hub drive upto a fair pace, where motor is operating at its optimum and bike / rider combo are attacking hill then yes hub drive is fine...but the assumption by those with ability to attack hills in this way that its the best way and hubs are way to go for all of us is simply wrong. Yes, dedicated fairly fit cyclist looking for help and nite speed then hub is probably fine.
The simple fact is that is not case for average recreational / occasional offroader cyclist. Also a crank drive that suits mtb and newbie/ unfit etc etc will also be able to work in similar fashion to hub but unfortunately not vice versa.
Look at all the cyclists up in arms for me championing CD, all shouting about how fast the can get up certain hills. ( one even throwing gauntlet down)
Yes, perhaps hub great for half fit and above decent cyclist. The rest of us are way better off on cd with its ability to give its best at speeds some would be embarrassed to travel at...
My wife did equivalent of Winnats yesterday..its hardly Alp Duez.
Just cant see her ( or perhaps me) being capable of that on hub, certainly not the ones I,ve tried.

I know CD,s work for all people I know who have tried them. Hubs seem to be championed on here. !!!
Didn't see a single Hub in Pyrenees ( saw half a dozen cd,s) Never seen a hub off road in Derbyshire...
To me that speaks more than all the noise on here.

 

[(NoLongerRegistered#15675)]

This shows you really are making a fool of yourself by not understanding enough.

As already explained, I gave up on my last CD bike since a very long slow climb I have was exhausting due to the effort required by the torque sensor to get enough from the motor. Instead I climb it much faster and with far less effort using a hub motor without torque sensing.

That paragraph shows that torque sensors and fitness are not red herrings but very relevant.

Our pedelecs are all legally and in fact electric assist, requiring us to make good any shortfall. To do that adequately getting the best from our bikes, we need to be reasonably fit.
.

Flecc
I think its you not understanding my points, but fine.
Its not an argument. Just expressing my findings and thoughts. I do think some read forum , go out and having done so buy wrong bike. OP perhaps.

 

[danielrlee]

Flud, have you picked up on the fact that your posts seem to create so much friction? Both your ignorance and arrogance is quite astounding. I can't imagine how long it has taken to hone these qualities to such proportions.

Somebody close to me once said "We have two ears and one mouth because we should listen twice as much as we talk". Never has it been more relevant.

I don't want this post to appear as bullying, so I'll end it by saying that there is a wealth of experience on offer to you by certain individuals, who probably rate as some of the most knowledgeable in the UK on the subject about which they speak. I for one have learnt lots from them over the few years I have been a member of this forum. They don't have to spend their time doing so, but do it for the love of it. Don't make the mistake of confusing kindness with hostility.

 

[(NoLongerRegistered#15675)]

Flud, have you picked up on the fact that your posts seem to create so much friction? Both your ignorance and arrogance is quite astounding. I can't imagine how long it has taken to hone these qualities to such proportions.

Somebody close to me once said "We have two ears and one mouth because we should listen twice as much as we talk". Never has it been more relevant.

I don't want this post to appear as bullying, so I'll end it by saying that there is a wealth of experience on offer to you by certain individuals, who probably rate as some of the most knowledgeable in the UK on the subject about which they speak. I for one have learnt lots from them over the few years I have been a member of this forum. They don't have to spend their time doing so, but do it for the love of it. Don't make the mistake of confusing kindness with hostility.

I,ll shut up then. No insult meant.

Think a few posters should look to themselves . Been told " talking crap" " shut up" " making a fool of myself" one even threw down gaunlet in his defence of hubs.( We can now add arrogant and ignorant)

Throughout I have neither insulted, been patronising or aggressive. I have expressed opinions with my interpretation of engineering involved. If that creates friction its hardly my fault. Your post is as patronising as is possible. Thanks for lecture.

But good cycling.

Lets just hope more do not make same mistake OP did.

I,m off to Winnats .

Ps
Don't worry about the bullying. You couldn't. But its a definite attempt at it.

 

[flecc]

Seems to me reading threads, examing my own experiences on ebikes that if a rider is capable of getting hub drive upto a fair pace, where motor is operating at its optimum and bike / rider combo are attacking hill then yes hub drive is fine...but the assumption by those with ability to attack hills in this way that its the best way and hubs are way to go for all of us is simply wrong. Yes, dedicated fairly fit cyclist looking for help and nite speed then hub is probably fine.

Referring to what I've highlighted in bold Flud, I've never said that, not just now but ever. Indeed I've said very clearly "horses for courses". As said before, I always urge others to try both before buying and make their own minds up, often adding that the bike that's right for them is the right bike.

There is no right bike for everyone. For some of us an internally geared hub motor is best, for some a two speed hub motor, for some a direct drive hub motor, for some the CD is best.

I've been around this business for a very long time and you'd be amazed how much fashion comes into it. We've had periods when CDs dominated and other periods when they all but vanished and hub motors dominated.

There's a geographic dimension too in CD versus Hub. For a number of years only two Japanese companies made CD units, other Japanese companies, China, Germany and Canada only produced hub motors.

The largest markets also have a geographic dimension. Germany now prefers CD after many years of only making one hub motor, the Netherlands prefers hub motors and the USA also hub motors in it's leisure biased market. The small UK market has always had a mix of every type with no clear preferences, though the largest sales have been of hub motors.
.

 

[danielrlee]

*sigh*

 

[trex]

to be fair to Flud, retailers don't normally stock bikes with powerful (180mm diameter or the XD) geared hubs, so he can't just pop in and try one.

This is the motor on the OP's Wisper 905:

and this is the motor on the Ezee:

spot the difference.

 

[flecc]

I do think some read forum , go out and having done so buy wrong bike. OP perhaps.

Probably unfair. Our long experience is that people buy the wrong bike and only then come here to find out their mistake.

The OP's bike is sold through shops so the forum may have played no part in it's choice. His equally disappointed brother bought a completly diffferent bike so that again doesn't indicate any specific advice received.

From past experience I think they had one main problem, a lack of understanding of the limitations of pedelec power.

That's very common. If you read through many of the introductions in the "Introduce Yourself" forum you'll see many posts effectively saying this:

"I want a bike that will climb steep hills with little help from me, and without pedalling at times".

They are thinking Electric Bike, when they should be thinking Electric Assist Bike. The best name is the legal EAPC one, Electric Assist Pedal Cycle.
.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

I'll finish my case with some actual data. Here's some objective data from a test done by a German ebike magazine, where they took a range of ebikes up a very steep mountain. The KTM Panasonic went the furthest up the mountain before the battery was flat and it used the least watt-hours per km by a country mile. In second place was the Bionx hub-motor. Third was a yamaha motor. The data speaks for itself and destroys every one of your theories, I'm afraid, Flud.

https://www.facebook.com/KtmBicycles/photos/a.730098453682963.1073741853.200160223343458/730098517016290/?type=3&theater

here's the whole thing:
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.730098453682963.1073741853.200160223343458&type=3

 

[trex]

that review is 2 1/2 year old. The motors that did not do well were pushed outside their comfort zone.
CD motors are more powerful now. If the same race is repeated with the Brose CD motor against the Panasonic, the outcome may be reversed.

 

[(NoLongerRegistered#15675)]

Probably unfair. Our long experience is that people buy the wrong bike and only then come here to find out their mistake.

The OP's bike is sold through shops so the forum may have played no part in it's choice. His equally disappointed brother bought a completly diffferent bike so that again doesn't indicate any specific advice received.

From past experience I think they had one main problem, a lack of understanding of the limitations of pedelec power.

That's very common. If you read through many of the introductions in the "Introduce Yourself" forum you'll see many posts effectively saying this:

"I want a bike that will climb steep hills with little help from me, and without pedalling at times".

They are thinking Electric Bike, when they should be thinking Electric Assist Bike. The best name is the legal EAPC one, Electric Assist Pedal Cycle.
.

But Flecc isn't that equally unfair on the customer. Yes ,I agree there is always one ( dv8nt on here sigh)
The immediate reaction on here was get fitter,its torque sensor, hill was too steep..
We,ve actually had amp bikes on here posting a review from a lady saying how great bike is. His advert states " real alternative to Bosch CD"
How must OP be feeling. Nobody has actually said ( well 2 have and got criticised for it) " You might have been better with CD mtb, try one and see"
Personally think he,d pedal up that hill at end of a 25 mile ride on mine but look at reaction I,ve got for suggesting it. Everybody out defending hubs..and then low and behold quite a few saying " well cd suits some and hubs others"
All concepts and engineering practices develop a momentum of their own and maintain a place in market through this process rather than for objective reasons. Like you said fashion affects sales.
Be honest flecc, do you really think OP is as well off on a hub drive as a CD mtb ??? I think not but like dv8nt says " I,m ignorant".

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

we've got 2016 panasonic hub motors and Bosch CX motors in stock at our place.

If you're used to riding one, you can always find benefits with the other and vice versa, its why we do both. There is no perfect solution, and certainly not something you can say one is better than the other.

You also can't generalise about hub v crank drives. You can get good and bad of both.

 

[(NoLongerRegistered#15675)]

Thr

I'll finish my case with some actual data. Here's some objective data from a test done by a German ebike magazine, where they took a range of ebikes up a very steep mountain. The KTM Panasonic went the furthest up the mountain before the battery was flat and it used the least watt-hours per km by a country mile. In second place was the Bionx hub-motor. Third was a yamaha motor. The data speaks for itself and destroys every one of your theories, I'm afraid, Flud.

https://www.facebook.com/KtmBicycles/photos/a.730098453682963.1073741853.200160223343458/730098517016290/?type=3&theater

here's the whole thing:
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.730098453682963.1073741853.200160223343458&type=3

The objective data was OP didn't manage to climb his last hill.
I,m suggesting he try a CD mtb. You are telling him to get fitter.
Which would you rather do ?
Read some cut and pasted graphs to prove he,s unfit, too old, knackered.???
That's really helpful for him...

If I were him I,d be back at shop being what I,m good at. A pain in arse. Shop is obliged to let him try something else. If its no better. No problem. If he flies up hill..happy days for all.
By time he hasn,t got fitter it will be too late.
Shop should be coming on here offering to try and sort it.( Rather than coming on here posting reviews of how good bike is )

 

[Wicky]

As a KTM eRace P 29 rider of almost two years and after testing a variety of Bosch and Kudos pedelecs at the Redbridge cycle track both on road and off road, uphill and over dale before making my purchase as it stood out from all the others for the purpose of mainly assisted hill climbing and not for flat out top speed on the flat. I find Flud's posts in this thread trollingly astonishing.

The KTM hub drive allows me change up the gears and actually slow down pedaling when heading up hills so to keep it in the sweet torque spot allowing sweat free progress at just under the 15.5mph max assisted speed. Quite where he gets the idea of needing to "attack" hills I don't know as he's never actually seen let alone ridden said model of bike.

 

[(NoLongerRegistered#15675)]

we've got 2016 panasonic hub motors and Bosch CX motors in stock at our place.

If you're used to riding one, you can always find benefits with the other and vice versa, its why we do both. There is no perfect solution, and certainly not something you can say one is better than the other.

You also can't generalise about hub v crank drives. You can get good and bad of both.

Just to be clear I,m not suggesting one system I intrinsically better than other. I suspect they suit riders of different abilities. A new customer should have facility to try both after being unhappy with one.
I,m pretty sure my dealer would sort something rather than saying get fit to customer.