Ezee Torq, front hub motor knocking/failed

[silversurfer]

Hi, my trusty MK.1 Torq has always had a bit of a growl y motor but reliable. A recelle'd battery last year gave it a new lease of life. But to day it seemed to use up battery capacity fairly quickly and motor was not pulling as well/more noisy on a 4 mile trip. Then on a gentle climb, it gave a couple of knocking noise's and cut out. It was a bit warm. Left it 10min and it worked again but 1 mile on it knocked again/stopped.
Pedel'ed it home and cool, it ran-up the wheel OK, but noisy and it is now impossible to turn wheel backwards? I am reasonably practical (as a classic moped rider) but these powerful hub motor magnets and procedural striping needs advice, which would be gratefully received, thanks Ted

 

[Nealh]

Your old torq hub has the six face plate screws so it might be easy to separate the hub to access the main planetary gears and clutch, on the op side there might be a axle retaining nut. Often there is no need to physically separate the motor windings/magnet field from the hub casing.
The fact it doesn't rotate backwards may be a ceased/damaged clutch, they get noisy when greasing is poor or possibly the planet gears failing.

 

[silversurfer]

Hi Many thanks for your prompt reply. Well I could certainly remove the wheel/unplug short loom. I assume I need to remove the 6 screws and side cover? I stripped a Power bike motor once to replace a hall transistor, (with advice from here!) the magnets were finger trapping!!! Nothing looks removable on the other side.
It was always a bit 'stiff' to wheel backwards but now locking up if i try....hope nothing broke as I guess no spares now (no longer imported and it is 12 years old now! Thanks for valued advice, Ted

 

[flecc]

It was always a bit 'stiff' to wheel backwards but now locking up if i try....hope nothing broke as I guess no spares now (no longer imported and it is 12 years old now! Thanks for valued advice, Ted

It's usually the gears on these Ted, that earlier Bafang motor has a very thin wall rack in the hub shell, secured by recessed screws in the rack which tends to distort under load.

You may find these details on my Torq website useful for stripping the motor.

The Ezee agents now are Greentech Bikes, contact Jeff or Janet. but stress the motor is the old Bafang one. Newer Torqs use the Ezee motor.
.

 

[silversurfer]

Hi Flecc, I have picked your brains a few times on this forum, always valuable guidance. Some of my moped friends now ride electrics (some are 'overpowered home built hybrid's! ) Especially as now moped'ing/biking is not permitted. Yes my MK 1 Torq, (laid up for 4 years! when original battery died was brought back to use when 'Jimmy' ? re-cell'ed it. But, not used bike much in last year, (moped'ing!) Yesterday did a nice 10 mile run on some muddy bridleways and later washed bike down. Today went out again and it had the lack of power/noise. I wonder if, reading your notes on water ingress it may have caused the noisy motor? certainly it was more noticeable today. Anyway, I will study your notes/guidance and investigate. Many thanks Ted

 

[silversurfer]

Well, the nylon gears, whilst no missing teeth (a reason for the mysterious banging?) they looked a bit 'slack/sloppy' on the ring gear, the centre running area of the gears was probably 0.010" (ten thou) worn. The puzzle is the sun/pinion wheel carrier. It seems like a one way ratchet? It moves smoothly....but will not permit reverse direction? Which means the wheel, when mounted will not permit the bike to be wheeled backwards...(it was possible before, but, with some slight resistance).

I see replacement gears are avail from China for £6.00 a set ? or maybe £6.00 each, depends which seller's copy I read!

There was no bad smell from the electrical motor, so probably OK?

What I found when slitting open the cable connection 'sausage' was water ! and some 'green' on tiny transistor feeds.....could this have induced an electrical 'switching' bang? (I had a hall effect transistor fail in a Powerbike years ago and it made the motor do a regular 'bang' .

Probably worth ordering new gears, some are white, some are blue? Not sure if the grease is specific for nylon? I have HMP 'moly' bearing grease.

Do you think the carrier/one way clutch is a problem? I can always lift the front if needed!

Thanks for your time to read this essay!

regards Ted

 

[Nealh]

If the gears/hub can't roatate the wheel anticlockwise then simply replacing the planet gears won't help a lot, the issue will be the complete clutch unit which isn't serviceable so will need replacing.
I have a tin of Castrol Moly which I use for hubs, must be a good 40 years old remember using it in my youth when I used to mess with cars.

Certainly the nylon gears don't mesh well and need replacing, is it poss that not meshing well would stop the hub reversing, for the cost it might be easoer just to fit a new clutch unit.

Whilst a part replace any sealed bearings as they are only a pound or two each, the part # will be stamped on them and get them form a bearing seller or ebay.

 

[Benjahmin]

One pin on the electrical plug looks shorter than the others. Is this a phase connection? There's no sign of heat damage, that I can see, but a metallic/knocking noise can be caused by a resistive or broken phase connection.
This happened on my Ezee Mk2 but with obvious plug heat damage. However noise had been a long standing problem. Replacing the phase power connectors did the trick.
I used one of these

MT60 connector, plug & socket | multi-pole connectors | Plugs, sockets and cables

MT60 connector, plug & socket Three pole gold contact connector in plastic housing. Suitable e. g. for connection between electrical motor and motor controller.for electric Motors with max. 60 A Current (Duration) Delivery contains 2 sockets and 2 plugs.

www.hacker-motor-shop.com

 

[Nealh]

One pin on the electrical plug looks shorter than the others. Is this a phase connection? There's no sign of heat damage, that I can see, but a metallic/knocking noise can be caused by a resistive or broken phase connection.
This happened on my Ezee Mk2 but with obvious plug heat damage. However noise had been a long standing problem. Replacing the phase power connectors did the trick.
I used one of these

MT60 connector, plug & socket | multi-pole connectors | Plugs, sockets and cables

MT60 connector, plug & socket Three pole gold contact connector in plastic housing. Suitable e. g. for connection between electrical motor and motor controller.for electric Motors with max. 60 A Current (Duration) Delivery contains 2 sockets and 2 plugs.

www.hacker-motor-shop.com

A very good spot Ben though it's not phase line but one of the halls, you can see the thicker phase wires above the thinner halls. If a bad connection then this can cause the motor to stop working also on the Blue hall it has a crease in the wire casing so a potential internal wire issue could occur. Looks like it has been trapped to cause the creasing.

 

[flecc]

Well, the nylon gears, whilst no missing teeth (a reason for the mysterious banging?) they looked a bit 'slack/sloppy' on the ring gear, the centre running area of the gears was probably 0.010" (ten thou) worn. The puzzle is the sun/pinion wheel carrier. It seems like a one way ratchet? It moves

My new Torq 1 failed at only 100 miles with exactly this fault but I didn't open it up at that time, just accepted an immediate replacement motor wheel.

If you have a close look at your top right photo no: DSCN9273.JPG, you'll see what looks like crack in the sixth gear tooth from the top, running deeply back into the centre. If that is a crack the gear tooth could bend back under load and create jamming.
.

 

[silversurfer]

If the gears/hub can't roatate the wheel anticlockwise then simply replacing the planet gears won't help a lot, the issue will be the complete clutch unit which isn't serviceable so will need replacing.
I have a tin of Castrol Moly which I use for hubs, must be a good 40 years old remember using it in my youth when I used to mess with cars.

Certainly the nylon gears don't mesh well and need replacing, is it poss that not meshing well would stop the hub reversing, for the cost it might be easoer just to fit a new clutch unit.

Whilst a part replace any sealed bearings as they are only a pound or two each, the part # will be stamped on them and get them form a bearing seller or ebay.

Thanks for your useful advice. I am a bit confused! The fact that the bike would no longer wheel backwards after knocking/cut out. Then WOULD motor a few mins later BUT front wheel no longer able to be reverse direction made me think something mechanical had jammed? The 3 planet gear carrier seems like a free wheel and I assumed the locked direction was to enable the epicyclic gearing to function. IF it must rotate both ways it certainly is faulty. I have not delved into the motor, it seemed 'uncooked' but is there a 'clutch' inside it? I boxed it back up until new gears are ordered but I could have another look at the motor unit?
Pity it has failed, it has been a nice bike keep my fingers crossed! Ted

 

[silversurfer]

Hi ,Update, had another look at motor, it seems rather stiff to turn magnet/cover, which drives the sun wheel. Maybe this is the 'bumpy' action on the magnets and normal? The clearance around winding seems( with some 002" brass shim stock) more tight over on one side. With a 'mock up' of the wheel in a vice, very slightly turning the magnet cover enables the wheel to move slightly in correct direction. Forcing the wheel 'backwards' (and aiding magnet cover backwards to move will allow some backward movement. (The action of 'overgearing' an epicyclic train does this). SO....I think the one way ratchet carrier is functioning a it should. Some stiffness in the motor innards....( a sleeve bearing?) might be the fault.....but opening the motor ....I need further advice! forgot some pics, oh the gears are not cracked, it was a scratch mark, but well spotted Flecc!
thanks Ted

 

[Nealh]

My new Torq 1 failed at only 100 miles with exactly this fault but I didn't open it up at that time, just accepted an immediate replacement motor wheel.

If you have a close look at your top right photo no: DSCN9273.JPG, you'll see what looks like crack in the sixth gear tooth from the top, running deeply back into the centre. If that is a crack the gear tooth could bend back under load and create jamming.
.

Goes to show unlike me didn't bother to enlarge the pics to show up the detail better. another good post flecc.

 

[Scorpio]

Hi Ted, I'm watching this with interest as I recently picked up a project with what I (as a total novice) think is a similar motor to yours.
My photos might give you an idea of what to expect if you split yours further

Kemp Starley Dutch Town Bike - out of hibernation.

Hi folks, and welcome to a project I've just picked up to keep me occupied. It might get brought back to life as electric or non-electric, or could become a parts donor - a lot will depend what I find when I get started. First impressions : It's a Dutch town bike by Kemp Starley, high build...

www.pedelecs.co.uk

Suggestions - see photo 9274. remove the 3 screws then use them in the 3 "other" holes to push the small toothed center off the hub.
You will then see a circlip on the shaft, remove the circlip.
You can then push the rotor off the motor hub against the force of the magnets.
Choices: either use a vice (open jaws wide so internal rotor will fit inside but outer shell is resting on the jaws, push hub down) or put carpet on the floor, set hub (wires facing up) on the carpet and push the outer rotor down.

Photo 9269, the pins in a connector normally have barbs which hold the pin in place, on yours it looks like the pins are fitted 180 degrees wrong so the barb is pointing up and doing nothing. Maybe remove all wires and refit (wires in the same holes) with the barbs facing down.

Can you let me now where you ordered your parts and how long it takes them to arrive - I need some bits for mine!

Keep up the good work !

 

[flecc]

Photo 9269, the pins in a connector normally have barbs which hold the pin in place, on yours it looks like the pins are fitted 180 degrees wrong so the barb is pointing up and doing nothing. Maybe remove all wires and refit (wires in the same holes) with the barbs facing down.

The barbs on that connector are correct on the Torq 1, they retain the pins inside the housing by engaing with the housing lip above.
.

 

[silversurfer]

Hi Scorpio, your pic of open'ed up motor (24 volt?) confirms what I think, an internal bearing...that might have sized on my motor? You comment on stripping useful, as I once open up another brushless motor...the magnets were vicious, finger choppers! So far not ordered anything as I do not know what I will need, and the motor is 12 year old,probably obsolete/superseded. I can't see any real damage, v slight wear on nylon gears and the jury still out on the 'one way'? clutch/carrier. Can you say if yours turns just one way, locking in reverse?
exciting weekend ahead I think....more familiar with classic Mopeds !

 

[Scorpio]

Hi Ted,

My motor has no (or a siezed) freewheel, I think my hub should have a 1-way bearing but I guess its rusted solid.

There is slight play in my hub bearings (the rim has very slight sideways movement), maybe check yours - could this be part of your problem?

Some links for background -
I think my gear sizes are like

https://www.greenbikekit.com/baflang-bldc-hub-motor-clutches.html

Last photo shows clutch internals (from a different type of motor)

Bafang/8fun SWXK/BPM/SWXH/CST/SWX02/SWXK2/SWXK2 motor clutch/planetary gear set-greenbikekit.com online store for electric bicycle parts-GreenBikeKit.com

Bafang clutches for 8fun bldc hub motors, replacement or repairing bldc hub engines, including CST, BPM, SWXK, BPM2, SWXK5, SWXH, SWXU, SWX01 etc hub motors.

www.greenbikekit.com

@flecc - thanks for the info about the barbs on connectors, I'd not seen them used that way before.

 

[silversurfer]

Well with advice from Flecc, Nealh and Scorpio and some careful repairs I now have my trusty flying machine back in action! A few 'red herrings' along the way just added to the satisfaction of hearing it (almost silently!) spin into action.
Stripping the rotor out identified the problem? The hub was rubbing tight on the stator winding in one place.....(no idea why) The inner surface of the rotor looked to be coated with a black film....like a PTFE pan! (but partly worn through) The two sealed bearings were smooth, the jerky feel was as I though, the pull of the magnets.The high spot on the stator (probably 2 or 3 thou was dressed off with a fine file. This tight sticking spot was why it would not 'reverse' This plus the 'overgearing' via the sun/planet gears just could not spin the wheel backwards....bit like trying to push start a car in 1st gear! The one way carrier was as I suspected, OK. part of the normal epicyclic train. So, all reassembled and the fiddly wiring plugs sealed up it hummed into action. I wonder, if my washing the bike after a muddy run, then the next day it was noisy rough....the one poor hall sensor contact(wet when opened up) may have jiggered the motor? Oh, when I washed the pedal sensor disc....it fell into a dozen pieces, but I use the bike on throttle anyway!!! A great outcome, well pleased, thanks Pedlecs!