EN19154 power test gives incorrect and high values

10mph

Esteemed Pedelecer
Dec 13, 2010
351
0
England
I have attempted to get some indication of the power rating of my Kalkhof Agattu C3 by testing according to EN19154 appendix D (download: pdf file).

In this test, starting from a standstill one accelerates the bike, and times how long it takes to cover 20 metres. According to EN19154 the power is to be calculated from the formula,
P=2*D*D*M/(T*T*T)
where P= power watts, D= 20 metres, M= mass of rider plus bike Kg, T = time secs to cover distance D.

The difficulty in testing a bike with a Panasonic drive where the power is controlled by a pedal torque sensor rather than a hand throttle is that the motor torque is proportional to the torque the rider supplies to the pedals. So, if one attempts to measure the power according to the EN19154 Appendix D test, one can't avoid measuring rider power plus motor power. In order to overcome this, I decided to compare rides with no assist to those on maximum assist where my Panasonic motor system supplies twice the torque provided by the pedalling rider.

The other issue was which of my 3 gears to use, since to change gear during the short ride I would have to remove power for about a second. After some experiments I decided that the middle gear gave the shortest time over 20 metres. So I used that and obtained the following results:



The time was measured by an assistant using a stop watch. She was located opposite the 20 metre point, and started the watch on my count down, "Ready steady, go."

The variation in times could be due both to small timing errors and also variations in my force on the pedals. I was pedalling hard, slightly pulling up on the handlebars when stamping on the pedals for the first rotation, and then maintaining hard pedalling while remaining on the saddle, rather than standing.

So what power does my motor provide? Well looking at my no assist rides they average around 500 watts according to EN19154, whereas the rides on maximum assist are around 1000 watts. So my bike's motor is providing about 500 watts and therefore fails the EN19154 appendix D test. However, I am not really worried because I think the formula in EN19154 appendix D is obviously inappropriate for the reasons I give below. What is perhaps worrying is that if Mr Plod's expert witnesses tried to test my bike and used the appendix D formula they might argue my bike was illegal since that method of calculation gives powers of order of 500w.

I also measured the final speed using my GPS which takes a reading every second. I stopped pedalling exactly on crossing the 20 metre line and then looked closely at the next two readings to appear on the GPS. I took the maximum reading as a measure of my speed at 20 metres. From this speed I calculated my final kinetic energy (0.5*M*V*V) where V in the speed at 20m point in m/s. From this kinetic energy one can calculate the average power by dividing by the time for 20 metres.

Finally I compared the power calculated by the EN19154 method divided by this average power derived from the bike's maximum speed. You can see in my table above that the EN19154 calculation gives about 1.9 times the power calculated from the bike's speed and kinetic energy. Why is this? Well, the formula used in EN19154 assumes that the acceleration is constant throughout the 20 metres. This is obviously not what happens in practice. In fact even the example diagrams given in EN19154 appendix B of torque against speed for a typical bike motor, show the motor torque starting at a maximum at zero speed and falling linearly to zero as the speed increases. Acceleration is directly proportional to torque, and the assumption of constant acceleration used in the EN19154 formula to calculate power results in an over estimation.

In fact using my final speed method of calculation my results average around 250 watts from me and 250 watts from the bike - perhaps I can rest easy since the EN19154 calculation method is clearly nonsense.

There is another method of measuring the "maximum continuous rated power" described in section 4.2.7.1 which involves measurement of the power at the engine shaft. This has to be done according in EN 60034-1. Investigation of EN 60034-1 leads me to believe that all this requires is that the manufacturer decides on a power at which the the motor can safely operate for long periods without damage. The manufacturer chooses how much above the ambient temperature it is safe for the motor to operate for long life, and from this specifies the motor's maximum continuous rated power. Clearly a motor power specified in this way could be exceeded without damage for short periods and even continuously if the manufacturer had set his temperature limit very conservatively. Section 4.2.7.1 appears to say that it should be the maximum continuous rated power which should be verified - not the maximum power. So maybe bikes are legal which deliver much more than 250 watts provided the manufacturer says the continuous rated power is only 250 watts because he wants to limit the temperature rise to ensure longevity of the motor.

The English language version of EN19154 is extremely poorly written and is often unclear in exact meaning. Perhaps it is the product of some Euro Committee all speaking different languages without a firm English speaking engineer ensuring sound theoretical engineering basis, especially for these power measurement specifications. As with many documents which are the product of such Euro meetings - they contain a lot of rubbish. It is a worry that most of the legislators and politicians don't really understand the numbers so we get unsound, even stupid, regulations.
 
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RoadieRoger

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 8, 2010
726
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I know from my days in a Testing Lab . and keeping all the B.S . Publications and Amendments up todate , that a lot of work was done by the various Specialist B.S. Committees and a draft B.S . was firstly issued to interested parties . Feedback was taken into account and the B.S . was then issued , superceding any previous B.S. on the subject . Even then, if an error was found, a first amendment would be issued and this would be attached to the copy of the B.S. At the annual UKAS Accreditation Inspection visit to the Lab., not having the current correct B.S complete with all Amendments was a serious non - compliance .
I cannot believe that EN `s which by now would have trumped all the B.S `s do not follow the same procedure .The people that draft them are experts in their fields or should be !
 
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10mph

Esteemed Pedelecer
Dec 13, 2010
351
0
England
The people that draft them are experts in their fields or should be !
I agree with all you say, including this sentence. But it does not mean that the experts always get things right, especially since experts with a commercial axe to grind also get places on committees. In my professional life I experienced some decidedly dodgy specifications by European organisations. It took experimentation and a lot of argument to convince the bureaucracy that they were not applicable to what I was doing.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,196
30,602
Power graph measurements of the standard current Panasonic unit of the Agattu indicate the continuous maximum power to be roughly 400 watts with high torque sensor input, not too far out from your 500 watts result 10 mph.
 

hoppy

Member
May 25, 2010
330
50
Thanks very much for all that,10mph-fascinating stuff! Dave of Kudos kindly sent me his SGS EN15194 test report. For motor power it says 248W "at the engine shaft ".I think the regs accept the motor maker's stated figure.He can say what he likes! Great!
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,196
30,602
Thanks very much for all that,10mph-fascinating stuff! Dave of Kudos kindly sent me his SGS EN15194 test report. For motor power it says 248W "at the engine shaft ".I think the regs accept the motor maker's stated figure.He can say what he likes! Great!
Thanks for that info Hoppy, very revealing. Elsewhere another manufacturer using a very different motor and controller designed and made in another country also passed the EN test with exactly 248 watts at the (impossible to access in both cases) motor shaft !

That probably says all that we need to know! :rolleyes:
 

banbury frank

Banned
Jan 13, 2011
1,565
5
CE mark

HI what should the CE mark stand for It is a European standard test

Not in China CE stands for China Export they stamp it on everything


Frank
 

NRG

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 6, 2009
2,592
10
Interesting 10mph, the EN test is obviously written with hub motors in mind. The only reliable way to test crank drive is in a static test unless you can null rider input within 10% and obtain a 1:1 gearing ratio.
 

10mph

Esteemed Pedelecer
Dec 13, 2010
351
0
England
Power graph measurements of the standard current Panasonic unit of the Agattu indicate the continuous maximum power to be roughly 400 watts with high torque sensor input, not too far out from your 500 watts result 10 mph.
Are the power graph measurements you mention available somewhere? I would be interested to see just how the measurement was carried out. I would like to try something like that if I can improvise the necessary equipment.

By the way, I am only seeing 500 watts from my bike motor if I apply the EN15194 appendix B test which I regard as definitely flawed. My result based on my kinetic energy (max speed) measurements suggests that an average power around 250 watts from the motor is reaching the road when accelerating hard over 20m.

Hill climbing is an excellent way of checking power, especially if one has a hand throttle controlled motor rather than the Panasonic pedal torque control. I have not found a really long hill of uniform and suitable gradient for testing. My measurements on two local hills, which have somewhat non uniform gradient, suggest I may be getting very little more than 250 watts from my motor into the road together with an assumed 125 watts from me.

I am finding the Panasonic system on the Agattu is extremely well suited for my needs. However, it does appear very difficult to disentangle user power from motor power, so my interest in measuring exactly what is going on is rather frustrated. Perhaps I should buy a cheap bike kit with a hand throttle in order to satisfy my urge to experiment!
 

10mph

Esteemed Pedelecer
Dec 13, 2010
351
0
England
Interesting 10mph, the EN test is obviously written with hub motors in mind. The only reliable way to test crank drive is in a static test unless you can null rider input within 10% and obtain a 1:1 gearing ratio.
But my point is that I think the Appendix D power test would be faulty even with a hub motor. As far as I know hub motors wont give constant acceleration over 20 metres, which is what would be required for the formula in EN15194 to be correct. Can someone with a hub motor and hand throttle try it out and report their results?
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,196
30,602
It was another member Fecn who did the graph tests, first on the standard unit and then on it modified to give around 900 watts maximum. In fact a graph I've seen supported the average on-road 250 watts you mention. In my experience it's the "legal" hub motors like my current one that greatly exceed the legal powers, mainly to give adequate hill climbing of course, not having gearing advantage.

However, reports on the performance of the Bosch crank drive system seem to indicate rather higher power than the Panasonic one.
 

NRG

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 6, 2009
2,592
10
10, if you are close to me you can try either of my hub bikes, both '250w' Bafangs...drop me a PM....
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,196
30,602
But my point is that I think the Appendix D power test would be faulty even with a hub motor. As far as I know hub motors wont give constant acceleration over 20 metres, which is what would be required for the formula in EN15194 to be correct. Can someone with a hub motor and hand throttle try it out and report their results?
I have tried timing acceleration to fixed speed points and found it impossible to get accurate enough timing results on my 20" wheel powerful hub-motor bike. I can't see me being able to do it accurately over as short a distance as 20 metres, but I do know the rate of acceleration is far from linear. Initially it's very slow and increases it's rate continuously up to about 9-10 mph, beyond which the rate starts reducing.
 

NRG

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 6, 2009
2,592
10
Indeed Flecc, and thinking about this some more with the parameter settings capable in the controllers I'm currently using on the Alien and Peugeot bikes in mind the EN test is flawed as pointed out. I can set a 'Block' time of up to 9 seconds I think (I'll need to check) that effectively disables the controller current limiter for that period of time during acceleration from standstill...this produces far more than 250W and adds non linearity to the acceleration test which the calculation in EN does not account for as 10mph points out...
 
D

Deleted member 4366

Guest
The power of a hub motor (in fact most ebike motors) depends on the speed it goes. The typical Bafang 250w motors produce most power at about 8 to 10mph and consume the most power at zero mph, so assuming that the bike spends most of it's time at 12mph, at that speed you'll be lucky to get it to consume 250 watts let alone give it out, so in that respect the 0 to 20m test is irrelevant.
 

NRG

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 6, 2009
2,592
10
To a point d8veh,as I wrote above the current limit can be overrode on the controller with a simple parameter change to give a temporary boost in power making the acceleration test nonsense.
 

trex

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 15, 2011
7,703
2,671
Scientific curiosity (which I applaud) aside, Dmiall put it so simply and elegantly:


Any bike with an "off road" or boost button that will enable the bike to exceed 25kph +10% with assistance from the motor....
or
Any bike that will exceed 25kph +10% with assistance from the motor....
or
Any bike that will exceed 6kph under throttle without the pedals being turned by the rider....

will not pass EN15194

If a bike satisfies all the other requirements set out in EN15194, and has a throttle that will independently propel the bike to 6kph without pedals being turned by the rider, after which the throttle will only work up to 25kph +10% if the rider is turning the pedals will pass EN15194.
The tests are obviously designed to test the bikes on average conditions.
 

hoppy

Member
May 25, 2010
330
50
Perhaps the EN 15194 "test" is simply "How does its maker rate the motor?". If he rates it under 200 or 250 watts then it passes.The physical test is an alternative. Hence the 248W "results"! This is good news for us-our bikes are legal after all. PTL!
 
D

Deleted member 4366

Guest
That's good because I built my bike from scratch, so I need to rate its power.

Right, now let me have a bit of a think ....hmmmm....... Yes, got it: It's 249 watts on average because I wouldn't like it to be used more than that because it might get a bit warm on a hot day. Thats good, its legal now. Thank god for that - I was getting a bit worried. I just need to make a plate to stick on the frame to tell everyone.
Do you remember this one?
 
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