Help! Electrickery!

[Andy-Mat]

Thanks for that, I guessed it was something simple. Now at least I have a starting point in trying to rectify the problem. Well not that simple I suppose, because a new battery is bloody expensive.

Now I hate E Bikes Direct even more for causing me a shed load of stress, fancy sending a new bike with a dud battery! Surely they must have had some idea when I contacted them by phone and email and described the problem...words fail me!

Just to warn you, that if after delivery, you let the bike sit around for some time, that MAY have caused your battery problem (I am also convinced battery or battery connection), do not tell the company if you did that.
These batteries require careful maintenance, and need to be kept, at all times, somewhere between 30 and 42 volts. Less voltage is generally critical and can possibly give permanent damage.
Companies who sell e-bikes are very sparing with such information, as they are afraid it will put people off, many here can "sing the same song", so to say!
regards and best wishes to getting it sorted.
Andy

 

[Depressed]

Just to warn you, that if after delivery, you let the bike sit around for some time, that MAY have caused your battery problem (I am also convinced battery or battery connection), do not tell the company if you did that.
These batteries require careful maintenance, and need to be kept, at all times, somewhere between 30 and 42 volts. Less voltage is generally critical and can possibly give permanent damage.
Companies who sell e-bikes are very sparing with such information, as they are afraid it will put people off, many here can "sing the same song", so to say!
regards and best wishes to getting it sorted.
Andy

I made sure I charged the battery when I first got it. It did mention in the paper work that it was best to keep it fully charged, it didn't mention that is was rather imperative to keep it charged though.

As I've mentioned elsewhere, I've sent ebd a letter, and if I don't get a reply by tomorrow, then i'm going to put the letter on their facebook page, and then they can't just throw it in the bin!

 

[sjpt]

Also keeping fully charged over a long period is a mistake. OK to top it up regularly and use it regularly, but if it is to be left for a period it should but kept well under full charge.

 

[PC2017]

if I don't get a reply by tomorrow,

Maybe take a breath and give them time to respond before resorting to drastic measures, most companies respond in 7-14 working days in light of the current situation they may not be running with all staff present, I understand it can be frustrating especially when communication becomes condescending and brash, but try and be the better person, above all you want this company to sort the problem out for you or worse case get your money back at the end of the day.

 

[Depressed]

Also keeping fully charged over a long period is a mistake. OK to top it up regularly and use it regularly, but if it is to be left for a period it should but kept well under full charge.

Now I'm totally lost?

 

[Depressed]

Maybe take a breath and give them time to respond before resorting to drastic measures, most companies respond in 7-14 working days in light of the current situation they may not be running with all staff present, I understand it can be frustrating especially when communication becomes condescending and brash, but try and be the better person, above all you want this company to sort the problem out for you or worse case get your money back at the end of the day.

I know what they're not running with, and that's a moral compass.

Many years ago i used to be a Doorman in South Africa, so on the subject of taking a breath, that's what their staff members would be doing if I got hold of them as i shoved their head down the bog!

 

[Nealh]

Now I'm totally lost?

Battery cells shipped from the manufacturer have a SOC of 3.5 - 3.6v for cell life to protect from degradation as they might be two years before being used, this is a nominal charge.
A typical lion cell has a useable charge range of 3.2 - 4.2v but keeping them stored at the lower or upper voltage can and will cause a shorter charge/cycle life, the difference can be twice the amount of cycles over many years.
Charging 4.2v per cell or 42v for a 36v battery should only be carried out a few hours before use is required, other wise the battery is best left to sit at a lower SOC < 80%.

Generally 3.5 - 3.9v is best when not being used.
For 24v this is 24.5 - 27.3v.
For 36v this is 35 -39v.
For 48v this is 45.5 - 50.7v.

 

[Ocsid]

Be very careful, fundamentally here you have failed to comply with their totally reasonable request you return the bike. IMO you would be better serving yourself by seeking help on doing that, than seeking to use online channels to try to damage your dealer.
Until they have your bike they can't help you, customer support is a two way thing.

 

[Andy-Mat]

Also keeping fully charged over a long period is a mistake. OK to top it up regularly and use it regularly, but if it is to be left for a period it should but kept well under full charge.

I have been testing such a thought (which I have never myself fully believed or fully followed, as my batteries are in constant usage), since the end of September last year, with one of my own bike's batteries, as I was given a third one to use (not keep) as the owner broke a leg badly, and can still not walk properly unaided...... I am his "maintainer" apparently!!
I fully charged one battery of mine, the oldest one (all Panasonic cells), which was well over 2 years old at the time (assembled in May 2017), and from time to time I measure the voltage and it has only recently (measured yesterday) gone below 41 volts, its now 40.7 volts. In almost 6 months of non usage.
How much of this is due to the excellent Panasonic manufacturing, and how much it is exactly the same from other manufacturers, I cannot say, from testing only one battery, from one manufacturer!
But I can see that they lose capacity many times slower than I ever believed from other posts on Pedelec.
Any opinions anyone?
Andy

 

[Deleted member 25121]

I have been testing such a thought (which I have never myself fully believed or fully followed, as my batteries are in constant usage), since the end of September last year, with one of my own bike's batteries, as I was given a third one to use (not keep) as the owner broke a leg badly, and can still not walk properly unaided...... I am his "maintainer" apparently!!
I fully charged one battery of mine, the oldest one (all Panasonic cells), which was well over 2 years old at the time (assembled in May 2017), and from time to time I measure the voltage and it has only recently (measured yesterday) gone below 41 volts, its now 40.7 volts. In almost 6 months of non usage.
How much of this is due to the excellent Panasonic manufacturing, and how much it is exactly the same from other manufacturers, I cannot say, from testing only one battery, from one manufacturer!
But I can see that they lose capacity many times slower than I ever believed from other posts on Pedelec.
Any opinions anyone?
Andy

I think all that shows is that the self discharge on the pack is low (measured in volts), it doesn't say too much about the decline in storage capability (measured in amp hours).

When cells get old their internal impedance rises. It could be that the cells in the pack have increased internal impedance and that wouldn't manifest itself in their self discharge. You see this with ageing alkaline batteries where their voltage measures OK with no load but drops badly under load, some people on here refer to it as voltage "sag" although that term is rarely used in the electronics industry.

 

[Deleted member 25121]

Be very careful, fundamentally here you have failed to comply with their totally reasonable request you return the bike. IMO you would be better serving yourself by seeking help on doing that, than seeking to use online channels to try to damage your dealer.
Until they have your bike they can't help you, customer support is a two way thing.

Yes indeed, I learnt a long time ago that the best way of getting somebody to help out with a situation is to be friendly, most people are happy to help out others. Being aggressive rarely achieves anything constructive.

 

[Andy-Mat]

I think all that shows is that the self discharge on the pack is low (measured in volts), it doesn't say too much about the decline in storage capability (measured in amp hours).

When cells get old their internal impedance rises. It could be that the cells in the pack have increased internal impedance and that wouldn't manifest itself in their self discharge. You see this with ageing alkaline batteries where their voltage measures OK with no load but drops badly under load, some people on here refer to it as voltage "sag" although that term is rarely used in the electronics industry.

Then I will have to use that battery fairly soon to test that theory of yours out!
But why has that theory never even been mentioned on Pedelec up to now?
That is really strange I feel, as we talk about EVERYTHING.....
By the way, I do not myself even consider them old at almost 3 years.
My previous bike's battery (I only had the one battery), was also Panasonic and I gave the bike away with it in a fully working condition, when both were over 6 years old! As I bought the bike secondhand, it may have been even older than that!
Others here have had even better battery lifetimes, I forget who at this time...as this subject has been discussed many times over.....
Andy

 

[Deleted member 25121]

But why has that theory never even been mentioned on Pedelec up to now?

I seem to remember seeing mention of it several times on here in the last few months.

 

[Andy-Mat]

I must have missed it completely, my bad, even though it is in my area of interest.
Could you be so kind as to assist me in finding them again please?
Thanks in advance
Andy

 

[Deleted member 25121]

I must have missed it completely, my bad, even though it is in my area of interest.
Could you be so kind as to assist me in finding them again please?
Thanks in advance
Andy

There's a Search button at the top of the Pedelecs main page, you could also try Google, much has been written on the topic.

But it's pretty basic ohms law stuff, I thought you were familiar with that?

 

[scott gaza]

Hi Depressed you have stated"Have just sent a letter off to ebd stating my problems and how the bike is rubbish" and " I did have a neighbour check the battery and he said it was putting out half its amount of 36v" looks like the battery is way too low i would get someone to check voltage again by taking the battery off the bike as it should be 42v with max charge The last 36v kit i bought the battery was sitting at 23v and unable to charge as it was below 30v but was then replaced with a new one ! I have also had one with lcd set up for the default 48v on a 36v system which died after about 1km @ 41v and without the manual for the lcd took a bit off working out to get the settings right, which also only became apparent after a battery exchange.

 

[Depressed]

Out of interest, how long should these batteries last...mine excluded of course.

How many trips can you make, how many charges do they take before you really have to look at getting another one?

 

[scott gaza]

500+ They can last a long time with the right care! i use mine from 41v to 34v daily use i rarely fully charge or discharge Except for balance charging one a month at 42v Check out: li ion battery degradation or go to https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_batteries

 

[Depressed]

Hi you have stated"Have just sent a letter off to ebd stating my problems and how the bike is rubbish and I did have a neighbour check the battery and he said it was putting out half its amount of 36v" looks like the battery is way too low i would get someone to check voltage again by taking the battery off the bike as it should be 42v with max charge The last 36v kit i bought the battery was sitting at 26v and unable to charge as it was below 30v but was then replaced with a new one !

I have indeed sent a letter to ebd stating the bike is rubbish, and it is rubbish...for me. I have problems cycling up a 1% gradient without help...i.e, the help of a battery. So with a knackered battery, the bike might as well end up in the Swale!
Others may say, I can still use the bike without a battery, so i'm not that bothered until this thing sorts itself out...not me.
I live in a beautiful part of the Yorkshire Dales...the weather is fabulous...and i'm stuck indoors with a bike which I've had for about six months and used about a handful of times because it's not fit for purpose i.e rubbish.
And people say i have to be nice to the CS people at ebd, even though they think i'm an idiot, and send me crap emails!

 

[Depressed]

500+

Thanks for that.