Electric Car Confusion

[flecc]

There's no surer sign of an immature technology than a lack of agreement on how to do things, and this showed from the beginning with electric assist bikes having some 18 ways of driving them in various models. With increasing maturity the e-bike market has largely settled into either front or rear internally geared hub motors or the Panasonic crank drive, with only the odd examples of some of the others left.

A bit off topic but of some related interest, the electric car field is showing the same signs of indecision on what they should be, with various possibilities. With the latest General Motors introduction, we now have the following four types in production:

The G-Wiz/Tesla type, all electric drive from a precharged battery.

The BYD type, driven from a precharged battery with a petrol engine taking over driving the car only on longer runs when the battery runs out.

The Chevrolet Volt type, driven from a precharged battery until it runs out, then a petrol generator starting to continue the current supply to the electric drive.

The Toyota Prius type, only producing it's own electricity from it's petrol engine, either direct or via recovered kinetic energy.

Under development there's also at least these types:

Hydrogen or methane fuel cell producing electricity for all electric drive.

Ultra-rapid charge batteries to enable "during journey" recharging for all-electric drive on long runs.

A Toyota Prius variant with larger capacity batteries and precharging, making it a bit more like the BYD.

I see the Chinese BYD car solution as the best since it enables all car journeys, short or long, without petrol/electric conversion losses, but maybe you have other preferences on how to do things?
.

 

[Django]

I see the Chinese BYD car solution as the best since it enables all car journeys, short or long, without petrol/electric conversion losses, but maybe you have other preferences on how to do things?
.

Hi Flecc,

I agree, though carting a heavy petrol engine around is not ideal. Hydrogen still seems to be the more aesthetically pleasing solution if the technology can be developed further.

However, if cold fusion can be harnessed . . . . . . . .

Another idea would be to have battery replacement service stations where instead of charging up you simply slot in another one and leave yours for the next customer. It would require standardisation but could be done in the same time it takes to fill a tank.

 

[Mussels]

Is the lack of standardisation down to the lack of suitable technology to make it work? The ideal battery doesn't exist so it has to be a hybrid but if the ideal hybrid is the BYD then what do you do a long way from home when the backup engine tries to start after 3 months of not running only to break? And if the Prius type hybrid wasn't promoted as the best option then what is the likely loss in fuel duty to the chancellor?
The Chevrolet Volt type may be useful as you could switch the generator on at the start of a long journey so a fault would be found before getting out of range of home, but the fuel tax would be questionable as it isn't used to directly drive a vehicle. I'm sure people would find many different way to fuel a generator tax free so the government wouldn't like that option.

 

[Barnowl]

However, if cold fusion can be harnessed . . . . . . . .

Or even proven to actually exist.... Not quite the discredited myth it used to be though and it does seem to be making a come back.

 

[flecc]

Is the lack of standardisation down to the lack of suitable technology to make it work? The ideal battery doesn't exist so it has to be a hybrid but if the ideal hybrid is the BYD then what do you do a long way from home when the backup engine tries to start after 3 months of not running only to break? And if the Prius type hybrid wasn't promoted as the best option then what is the likely loss in fuel duty to the chancellor?
The Chevrolet Volt type may be useful as you could switch the generator on at the start of a long journey so a fault would be found before getting out of range of home, but the fuel tax would be questionable as it isn't used to directly drive a vehicle. I'm sure people would find many different way to fuel a generator tax free so the government wouldn't like that option.

I thought of that BYD objection when I first came across the design, but I'm sure they will also have thought of it and coped accordingly. The simplest and cheapest way would be a timer that cuts in the petrol engine to run for a few minutes every X period of time or X number of miles. It's in full production in China and selling so any bugs will soon be found.

The Chevrolet suffers from exactly the same potential problem since it's petrol engine isn't under driver control, only cutting in when the mains charged battery runs low, so a regular short journey commuter would never need it.

As you say, all the true electric solutions will raise some urgent fiscal problems for governments, and the worst solution would be two tier electricity, much dearer for vehicle charging, duplicating the whole red diesel fiasco all over again. Since e-cars will be a long time coming in bulk, I think the answer will be in mileage/journey charging with all vehicles blackbox monitored by GPS, a new form of road tax. Europe is already going ahead with it's own highly accurate GPS satellite system so that will be easily independently set up.

Big Bro time!
.

 

[flecc]

Another idea would be to have battery replacement service stations where instead of charging up you simply slot in another one and leave yours for the next customer. It would require standardisation but could be done in the same time it takes to fill a tank.

Yes, there's been plenty of thought on that and I omitted an Israeli scheme to do just that, first in Israel and then in parts of the USA. That scheme has Renault in partnership to produce the special slot in electric cars and they claim to have the necessary finance in place. My impressions of the proponent of the scheme were more of hype and enthusiasm than reality, but it could happen.
.

 

[torrent99]

Yes, there's been plenty of thought on that and I omitted an Israeli scheme to do just that, first in Israel and then in parts of the USA. That scheme has Renault in partnership to produce the special slot in electric cars and they claim to have the necessary finance in place. My impressions of the proponent of the scheme were more of hype and enthusiasm than reality, but it could happen.
.

Another urgent question now as we move towards electric cars of one type or another is where is the extra electricity going to come from to charge them.

Not only is there the whole nuclear/wind/wave/solar/coal/gas etc debate. There's also the demand/supply management problem, the cables etc etc.

From that point of view hydrogen might be a better option as once it's produced the distribution (& taxation) model could be similar to the oil model we have at the moment, or we could move to a gas model. The producers could build their own dedicated power stations.

 

[flecc]

Another urgent question now as we move towards electric cars of one type or another is where is the extra electricity going to come from to charge them.

Indeed, and it's partly why I remarked that electric cars in bulk will be a long time coming. The forecasts of widespread adoption within one decade are hopelessly unrealistic, the infrastructure to support them simply couldn't be in place in that timespan, or even in two decades. In Britain we are going to hard pushed to maintain generation for our present needs over the next decade, so less than 10% e-car sales could break the system.
.

 

[Tiberius]

... hydrogen might be a better option as once it's produced ....

Ah, but doesn't that bring you right back to the question of where the extra electricity comes from. What do the dedicate power stations run on?

Hydrogen is not a power source in itself, but a means of transporting and delivering power. Its also not a very efficient process either.

This is quite a good source on the subject David MacKay: Sustainable Energy - without the hot air: Contents

Nick

 

[eddieo]

Just had a Google on the Chinese BYD cars and they look interesting with decent range and battery life if its true lol (180 miles and over 300.000 miles life from lithium batteries)

But and a big but, they look bloody awful! Sooooo old fashioned, you would thing they could come up with more modern styled compact vehicle...

Ah well....early days I guess


P.S. the new E Mini looks nice but at an eye watering £24.000

 

[derrick7]

Byd?

What is a BYD?

Derrick - Llanberis

 

[Conal]

Build Your Dreams

BYD does not actually stand for Build Your Dreams. it is the name of the Chinese company who hold a large part of the battery production market.

According to Wickipedia (so it must be true??) this is the anglisised version. I suppose it is the result if the opposite of capitalisation or initialisation - take some initials and make up your own phrase to fit!

Conal

 

[torrent99]

Ah, but doesn't that bring you right back to the question of where the extra electricity comes from. What do the dedicate power stations run on?

Hydrogen is not a power source in itself, but a means of transporting and delivering power. Its also not a very efficient process either.

This is quite a good source on the subject David MacKay: Sustainable Energy - without the hot air: Contents

Nick

Well it does in a way. I suppose what I was ineffectually getting at was that demand regulation would be a big problem for huge fleets of battery powered vehicles. Our current off-peak hours during the night when the hydro schemes pump up the water, would then become as high (or higher) than the current peak when everyone charged their cars overnight.

I was thinking that with hydrogen, as you would have plants producing it 24x7, the demand would be smoother (and you could just dedicate local plants to the job, isolating the "transport grid" from the normal power grid.) So less need for demand regulation infrastructure such as hydro schemes. As you say hydrogen is a pretty inefficient means of storing and transporting energy though...

There's a related thread going on, on one of the kayaking boards I visit, sparked off by objections to hydro-electric schemes in Scotland. Naturally paddlers are usually against hydro schemes, because they often destroy any chance of paddling on excellent white water rivers (and lots of other enviro damage). Paddlers are also usually "green" in outlook so are in favour of renewable energy. Unfortunately, renewables need hydro "batteries" in order to regulate their "fickle" output...so there's a bit of a dilema there I think....

 

[Tiberius]

Hi Steve,

Have a look at the link. The author discusses the issues of demand regulation and energy storage. He concludes that more hydro storage is needed, so bad news for white water canoeists, but maybe good news for hovercraft. He also shows how a battery-electric fleet can be used in a neat way to help the regulation/storage problem.

Nick

 

[flecc]

But and a big but, they look bloody awful! Sooooo old fashioned, you would thing they could come up with more modern styled compact vehicle...

Surely not that bad Eddie, here it is, a touch of the previous Astra about it, but it's surely light years ahead of the G-Wiz and the Mitsubishi i-car and numerous others for style. I'd be very happy to drive one.

The long range battery pack in this, the Chevrolet Volt and the earlier GM e-car will inevitably give a slightly dumpy looking depth to the body style, and even with it's much smaller battery, the Prius is no looker.

Anyway, if someone doesn't like the looks they could always look at the Chauffeuse provided with this one.
.

 

[flecc]

BYD does not actually stand for Build Your Dreams. it is the name of the Chinese company who hold a large part of the battery production market.

According to Wickipedia (so it must be true??) this is the anglisised version. I suppose it is the result if the opposite of capitalisation or initialisation - take some initials and make up your own phrase to fit!

Conal

It was actually BYD themselves who coined this anglicisation to suit the western market. Nothing if not enterprising and a commendable ability to learn fast.

Not as slow as one company, who wasted years with poor sales, first as the brand Lucky Goldstar, then as Goldstar, before finally hiding behind those winning initials LG and becoming very successful.
.

 

[torrent99]

Hi Steve,

Have a look at the link. The author discusses the issues of demand regulation and energy storage. He concludes that more hydro storage is needed, so bad news for white water canoeists, but maybe good news for hovercraft. He also shows how a battery-electric fleet can be used in a neat way to help the regulation/storage problem.

Nick

Yes, just been reading the nuclear pages...very good, nice focus on the numbers rather than the FEAR!

Oh I'm not so sure about hydro, surely we can just soop up some of the current ones by replacing the water with something heavier, say molten lead!?! .

I'll have to read about this battery-electric fleet idea...power your kettle from your e-bike?

 

[flecc]

What is a BYD?

Derrick - Llanberis

It's this Chinese designed and built mains charged electric car Derrick, photo below, capable of a long enough range to cover the great majority of journeys on electric only. As the battery runs low it's built in petrol engine takes over the drive, enabling the occasional longer journey to be made. The battery is an LiFePO4 which is intended to last for 10 years or possibly the life of the car.

 

[flecc]

Oh I'm not so sure about hydro, surely we can just soop up some of the current ones by replacing the water with something heavier, say molten lead!?! .

It works in the Russian BN nuclear reactors as a substitute for the water that PWRs use, but we'd need a heck of a lot more global warming to keep it molten for hydro. Shades of Venus.
.

 

[eddieo]

Mmmm...maybe the BYD is growing on me, although I prefer the Mitsubishi mini people carrier style of vehicle, more practical IMO

are these available in China yet? any one like to hazard a guess as to price?

it may well be my next car if available in a year or two!