Electric Bike for Long Distance Cycle Touring

[shep]

Recently my mind has been wandering and thinking about an ideal electric bike for long distance cycle touring, and these are my thoughts, i would really appreciate any input here.

Assuming that Crank drive systems like the Panasonic seem to use about 8wh and hub drives about 12wh per mile. The biggest consideration for distance is a combination of the drive efficiency and how many watt hours you are carrying. So a 26v Panasonic 10ah battery has 260w/hours and a 36v Hub motor 10ah battery has 360w/hours.

Assuming cut off at 10% of the full capacity, so that we actually get to use 90% of the batteries capacity

Crank Drive 260 X 90% = 234w/hours divided by 8Wh = 29.25 Miles

Hub Drive 360 X 90% = 324w/hours divided by 12wh = 27 Miles

So both bikes are going to run out of steam at a similar distance lets call it 28 miles, So if you left the campsite/Hotel in the morning and you are averaging say 12 mph you have about 2 hours 20 minutes until you are out of battery power.

This is not very long so what are the solutions? as you will not even make the lunch break.

Increase battery capacity lets use 18ah which is now available for the Panasonic System, we were using a 10ah battery before so we just multiply our distances by 1.8

Crank Drive 29.25 X 1.8 = 52.65 Miles

Hub Drive 27 X 1.8 = 48.6 Miles

Lets call it an average of 50 miles, That is better and gives at an average of 12mph just over 4 hours. So 2 batteries of this size would get you through a full day.

But then it got me thinking that a very important issue is also how fast you can recharge. For example I was looking at Kudos website today and they state that with there charger they can recharge there 10ah LiFePo battery from 50% capacity to full in 1 hour, so it must be a quite powerful 5amp charger. So assuming that you had a French style 2 hour lunch and you can blag an electric point for this lunch, on your travels you could completely charge a 10ah battery over the 2 hour lunch break. which would give you about 28 miles and then another 28 miles.

Now what if we had a 10amp charger this time would come down to 1 hour, or what about a 20amp charger, that would recharge in only 30 minutes or charge an 18amp battery in under 1 hour !!!!!!!. The point i am trying to make is we talk a lot about efficiencies of crank or hub systems, but for long distance use surely this is not actually as important as the ability to recharge A BIG BATTERY PACK AT A FAST RATE. Or am i completely missing something here?

 

[flecc]

Fast charging our lithium batteries can have a life shortening effect and dedicated fast charge battery types like SCiB only have less than half the capacity for a given volume. So that may not be the best approach.

Some observations. First, I've never found the 36 volt hub motor bikes comparing favourably for range against the Panasonic system without considerable constant attention to conserving power, and I find that tiring against the other system which takes care of economy with little help.

A good way to conserve power is by switching off at times when the going is easy, and this is where the Panasonic type system often wins out again, the bikes usually much easier to pedal without power and a switch-off function on the handlebars.

Given how light the latest batteries are, I'd choose the Panasonic powered bike with a second 18 Ah battery carried, with a potential of between 100 and 160 miles, depending on terrain and techniques. If that distance isn't needed, the one battery for 50 to 80 miles.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Shep, I think some of your assumptions are a bit off. Firstly, despite what others say, my belief is that there isn't much difference in the efficiencies of the different systems, so the range is dependent on 2 things: The size of the battery (wH) and how hard you can pedal. Those Kudos bikes will easily do 50 miles on a 10aH 36v battery, if you're a regular cyclist and the terrain isn't too hilly. My bike is similar to the Kudos ones with the 250w 8Fun motor and controller and I've done 70 miles on one battery twice with it switched on all the time. It's also easy to pedal when switched off and I've done 40 miles on it that way before carrying on for another 15 miles with power to use about 3aH for the whole journey and I'm by no means fit or strong or light. I also did the Tour de Presteigne ride which was 49 miles of about the hilliest terrain you can get on 11 aH, but I did have to pedal hard at times. It seems to me that the low ranges some claim are for lazy or incapable people who can hardly pedal. My range was about 35 miles when I first got my bike, and after turning the crank 5 times I was puffing and had to use the throttle.
If you had a 10amp charger, it would be a big heavy thing to carry, so it'd be easier to carry a spare battery (or 2). As Flecc says, it's not good for the battery to fast charge it. It'll wear out much quicker.
My conclusion: If you want to go touring, get a big battery and a spare if you can. Then practice going long distances. Then practice pedalling your bike with no power to build up the strength in your legs. Then you'll be ready for your world tour.

 

[piotrmacheta]

I think that the joy of cycle touring is pedalling on the flats and reserving the electric for the hills or when you're tired. I recently went cycle touring in Morocco using a non-electric bike and carrying tent and everything and I managed between 40 and 50 miles per day in the mountains but it was hard work so I think that if I had taken the electric bike I would have managed 100 which is more than enough each day.

 

[allen-uk]

Shep:

Are you intending to pedal the things, or just use all the electric power that you can? It just sounds from your low range figures that whether on crank or hub motor, you're expecting them to do most of the work.

So divulge your cycling system, as we might spot a flaw in it!

For example, in this good weather (low 70s most days) I get a range of 22-25 miles out of my Wisper, and that is (a) with the off-road button permanently set to 'off-road' (which burns power), (b) with me always using the throttle to get away from rest to moving (similarly eats batteries), (c) with a totally inefficient rider, overweight, one-legged, unfit - I pedal all I can, but obviously not as efficiently as most.

So how are you intending to use the bikes?

Allen

 

[shep]

Brilliant help, really appreciated. This forum is full of very nice people only too willing to help. I had not thought about the hub resistance when using the bike with no power Flecc, and i understand what you mean 8 about further distances with both a crank and hub bike when you are fitter. I notice on the Ezee site they have a good story about a road trip across China, on hub powered Ezee bikes, The owner of Ezee, i forget his name but he was an older Gentleman !! had much higher w/h usage than the 27 year old guy he went with.

I fly a lot of Radio Control planes and we use Lipo batteries in these they are normally 12.6V so 3 cell batteries and about 2.2Ah but we push them very hard drawing up to 50 amps on full throttle, and charging at up to 10amp, so they charge in under 15 minutes. You normally get about 200 flights out of cheap china battery before they die, but what seems to kill them faster is drawing too much amperage. So in this example 50 amps would be the limit and when you land the Lipo is so hot you can hardly touch it, However 30 amps would be far better for a prolonged life. The amperage draw and therefore watts produced is dependant on the propeller size used both diameter and pitch, too big a prop and you destroy the Motor, Speed controller and maybe the battery.

What i and others have found is pushing the charging quite hard seems to have no noticeable effect. Which is why i thought can E Bike batteries be pushed far harder as regards charging without adverse effects. So that for bigger distances you could either use a bigger battery, or use more than 1 battery or fast charge the single battery at a midday stop.

 

[shep]

Allen

Pedalling as hard as i can, and using assist when needed. D8VEH i was just thinking regarding what you said about getting fitter and having a bigger range from the battery, Lance Armstrong would get to Vladivostok on a digital watch battery

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Allen

Pedalling as hard as i can, and using assist when needed. D8VEH i was just thinking regarding what you said about getting fitter and having a bigger range from the battery, Lance Armstrong would get to Vladivostok on a digital watch battery

I'm glad you got it. Some don't!

Regarding drag from a hub motor. I've ridden loads and I've never noticed any up to 20mph. In theory there should be a lttle, but I think it's a myth from before hub motors had clutches. Maybe it'd be more noticeable with a small wheeled bike.

As you have experience of Lipos, you could use them on an electric bike, like I do, and, as you know, you can fast charge them at much higher rates, but you'd need a big charger. It's easy to charge model aero ones from a car battery, but you'd flatten one trying to charge a bike one from it. So you'd need a 20 amp mains charger - still big, heavy and expensive.

 

[Caph]

I find there are two ways to ride electric. One is to whack up the power to get you where you want to go as quickly as possible with as little effort as possible which is ideal for getting to work on time without needing a shower. This obviously drains the battery and I find it will give a range of 15-25 miles.

Then there is leisure riding where you use little or no battery power on the flat while still only putting in relatively little effort and the battery only really kicks in when you hit hills, still leaving you putting in relatively little effort. This more relaxed style should easily extend your mileage to 40-50 miles on a 10aH battery.

I'd say that the latter style would be much better suited to long distance touring and would mean you should be able to get 80-100 miles per day with two 10aH batteries with ample time to slow charge them overnight. Given that most people would not want to be in the saddle for more than 100 miles per day I'd say that gives you the ideal solution for long distance touring.

 

[NRG]

I notice hub motor drag and it's not a myth. At what point does the weight of all the electrical gubbins become a hindrance rather than a benefit?




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[Deleted member 4366]

I notice hub motor drag and it's not a myth. At what point does the weight of all the electrical gubbins become a hindrance rather than a benefit?

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You need to put some of that 3-in-1 on it

 

[NRG]

You need to put some of that 3-in-1 on it

Ho ho ho, witty! However my reality check bounced a long time ago...

 

[steveindenmark]

I am sure I read a piece about a guy who did round the world on a Wisper.

How far do you want to go?

Steve

 

[wharfitude]

I've been mulling this over for a day or two, and for me the best tourer would have to be from the Kalkhoff range, with the 18Ah battery. Okay, I admit I've got one myself, but I still reckon it's the best bet.

For practical reasons I'd be thinking in terms of B&B rather than camping, as I can't see that the average campsite would have secure recharging facilities. I'd be worried about an expensive battery and charger sitting in a room somewhere away from where your tent is.

I think the Agattu would be as good as any - the XXL model maybe if you need the extra carrying capacity. I'd always have a diamond frame for touring. Not only is it slightly stronger but it's easier to keep a heavily laden bike steady when you're stopping to check maps etc. Carry two 18Ah batteries and two travel chargers, and a battery terminal cover just in case you have to leave the bike outdoors at night. For a short tour decent sized rear panniers and maybe a bar-bag should be enough.

That would give you a range of well over 100 miles a day, but I'd never try and do that much. Cycle touring is all about stopping to explore and see the sights, so 60 miles a day would probably be plenty. You'd have no worries about batteries running low and could recharge both overnight. I wouldn't bother with a quick charge at lunchtime - it's just more trouble than it's worth.

It's an exciting prospect, but the kit I've just described would set you back well over £4K so it's anything but a cheap option.

Hugh

 

[jonathan75]

I just want to bump this old thread because I've the same purpose in mind as the OP (long distance touring in Europe with bike only) and just wondering if a 4a charger on a 14.5ah Samsung 36v L-ion battery from eclipsebikes will damage the battery life significantly?

Wondering also if anyone else has experience of touring with an ebike as sole transport, and whether camping worked. And lastly whether it's ok to cycle until battery cutoff regularly, or even just occasionally, eg every day while on a tour. Oh, and whether a 25kg setup is too heavy bikewise or if 20kg is going to make a huge difference (for some odd reason bike weight seems to slow a bike more than extra bodyweight, anecdotally, although perhaps it's a myth). Thanks

 

[Cyclezee]

If you fancy venturing a bit further than Europe these rides might be of interest.

http://glowwormbicycles.com.au/perth-to-sydney

http://ezeebike.com/vacation-electric-bike/

http://www.ezeebike.co.za/Downloads/Katima to Cape Report.pdf

http://glowwormbicycles.com.au/blog/2012/07/12/cape-york-sydney-electric-bicycle-ride

http://www.ezeebike.com/images/1_downloads/Silk Road3.pdf

 

[trex]

if you intend to ride between 80 to 100 miles a day then two batteries that can cover 40-50 miles each would do the job without needing to recharge. I found that the average power consumption is between 8-10WH per mile, then the point is to have the highest density cells in your battery to reduce the weight.
The Woosh Zephyr-B could be a good candidate, it has a lightweight battery with 3400mAH cells, is light, powerful and a full-sus bike, more comfortable to ride on all day.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

It's a conundrum. You want to go further, but that means a bigger battery, which means more weight that you don't want. The only logical answer, as Trex points out, is to get the lightest type of battery so that you get the most wh for its weight.

With 3400mah Panasonic cells, that gives you about 27.5 ah at 36v for a weight of about 5kg. An all-up bike weight of 25kg should be achievable, but if you're going to add all the weight of camping gear, clothing and food, your weight will be much higher.

Discharging the battery right down shouldn't do it any harm for a few cycles.

 

[EddiePJ]

It's a conundrum. You want to go further, but that means a bigger battery, which means more weight that you don't want.
.

Also another reason to keep the bike as light as possible by not having full suspension. You certainly won't see many, if any, full suspension touring bikes.

I think that if I was after a touring bike, I'd ditch the e-bike idea altogether and just buy a Kona Sutra.
The new Genesis Tour De Fer looks very tasty as well, but there again, I love Genesis bikes.

 

[D8ve]

My vote is for Panasonic drive. I have a 2012, 36 volt 12 amp system.
That would give me masses of range alone.certainly 100 miles in Kallhoff frame.
But the step change that produces the best range(and comfort) would be a move to a recumbent with the Panasonic.
As aprox 90% of energy is used to overcome air resistance.
A recumbent can be much more efficient often quoted as 25%.
That equates to higher speed for same input or same speed for much less effort. Think of it as dropping the watt hour on the Panasonic to circa 6 watt hours per mile.....
With the larger batteries the range could be huge.
On the flat no power requirement at all as can cruse at over 15 mph.
The power is only used on the hills.
So lower range in hills and endless on the flat.
Up hill the same energy is required no matter what bike or design.
If I had the Panasonic fitted to my recumbent I could achieve 150 mile days easy on a single battery. ( 10 hours cycling is normally plenty for a day. You need time to eat etc too)

D8ve