eBrompton Build

StuartsProjects

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 9, 2021
1,786
1,009
Neat conversion.

I have an old style Swytch conversion on a 3 speed Brompton, it weighs around 18kg.

Yours looks like the newer Swytch, if so is that the 5Ahr battery and how far do you get with it ?
 

StuartsProjects

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 9, 2021
1,786
1,009
Something worrying discovered whilst in Hospital

I was visiting someone in the local Hospital and rather than do the 20minute walk from home, I rode there on eBrompton. Of course I left the battery behind so this was a simulation of riding the bike as if the battery or electrics had failed. The cycle was OK.

I arrived at casualty, folded eBrompton up and carried it in. No-one said anything, folded it hardly looked like an eBike anyway.

It was whilst I was sitting down in the ward that I noticed a problem with folded eBrompton. The PAS sensor disk on the left side interferes and is bent outward by the Brompton rear frame triangle, when its folded underneath the bottom bracket, see picture below;

51870

That issue probably explains why the Swytch kit uses a PAS disk that attaches to the crank arm and not the bottom bracket axle, see below;

51871

Fortunately there looks to be plenty of room out on the right side, using the type of PAS sensor that fits between the frame and the bottom bracket securing sleeve.

51872

So I removed the right crank and put the sensor in place. Spinning the PAS disk did make the front hub motor rotate the correct way, so I put the chainwheel back on.

The PAS disk was not as close to the PAS sensor as I would like, the gap was around 5.6mm.

51873

With the chainwheel removed again I found that the sensor stopped working at around 6.5mm spacing, so its within 1mm of failing, not good. For potentially more reliable operation, I bent the sensor disk a bit and added a 2mm spacer to the bottom bracket mount to move the PAS disc out. With the chainwheel and crank back on it looks quite neat, works too.

51874

Only annoying problem was that the cable on the right side PAS sensor was quite short, so there was a connector visible outside of the battery\controller bag.

I like to have spares to hand, so I now needed to buy another right side PAS sensor as a spare. I found an el-Cheapo one (£5), which had a long cable. Yes it had a JST-SM connector but it should be easy enough to wire a Julet to the end, see below.

51875

What is maybe convenient about this sensor is that if the sensor part fails, you can easily access the single screw fixing it to the metal bracket and replace the sensor without removing the chainwheel and crank. I have had a PAS sensor fail on another eBike.
 
Last edited:

StuartsProjects

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 9, 2021
1,786
1,009
Portable repair stand

There is the problem that when out and about and you need to repair a puncture. Its easier, particularly if its the rear wheel to turn the bike over and prop it upside down on the ground. There is a problem with all bikes in that the stuff on the handlebar can get damaged, particularly in the case of an eBike which has a display to worry about. Break the display and the eBike goes no more.

I had seen the ‘Handlebar Jack’

https://www.handlebarjack.com/

Which is a pair of small tripods that you fit with elastics to each of the bar grips and then turn the bike over. You can buy them on eBay £40 and the pair is light at 90g. Neat idea.

However 90g is a lot to carry around all the time, so I had a think.

Expanded Polypropylene foam (EPP) is a foam I have used for making radio controlled planes. The foam is light and springy but stiff for the weight. It does not fall to bits like polystyrene. It sticks very well indeed with contact adhesive too.

I had a cut block about the right size so I cut a circular hole in it and then cut the block in half.

51876

eBrompton is only around 12kg, so for a real test I placed the blocks on the handlebars of my much heavier eMountainBike, I held them in place with a bit of PVC tape.

51877

I turned the bike over and it was quite stable and firm resting on the foam blocks with everything on the bars well clear of the ground.

51878

Weight of the foam blocks, 6g plus 2g for the tape. Cost of foam, around £2.
 

Greenrun

Finding my (electric) wheels
Jun 13, 2019
6
0
Hi, enjoyed your very interesting build on your Brompton. Regarding the PAS sensor and the fitting possibilities. Have you considered fitting the Brompton bottom bracket torque sensor instead? .The part is quite expensive at £95 from SJS but I guess it would also give an improved "feel" from the electrical assistance. Is this possible or is the part too proprietary to the Brompton controller / system.?
 

StuartsProjects

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 9, 2021
1,786
1,009
The part is quite expensive at £95 from SJS but I guess it would also give an improved "feel" from the electrical assistance. Is this possible or is the part too proprietary to the Brompton controller / system.?
My understanding is that the KT contoller being used expects a 3 wire PAS only.

I have seen the Brompton torque sensor (5 wires) but assumed it was propriatry to the Brompton controller.

I am happy enough with the way the PAS responds and I already had an Aceoffix Titanium bottom bracket (lighter) so thats the one I used.
 
Last edited:
  • Agree
Reactions: Nealh

Nealh

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 7, 2014
20,917
8,533
61
West Sx RH
One needs a special controller to work with the SJS TS, it isn't compatible with a generic PAS /cadence type controller.
 
  • Like
Reactions: StuartsProjects

StuartsProjects

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 9, 2021
1,786
1,009
Taking control of charging
The 10S1P of Samsung 21700 50S 5Ahr is on order, so with a test and comparison to be made with super el-cheapo hover board batteries, it was time to take control of charging. I wanted to be able to more closely monitor the charging process and add a bit of extra safety too. Later on I wanted to be able to measure the amount of charge applied to a battery and to be able to measure the batteries Ahr capacity in a controlled way.

Monitoring the charge process
I wanted to be able to control the charge cut off voltage for three reasons;

First there are indications if you mostly charge to 41V (for a 10S battery) then you may extend battery life.

Second if your not going to use the battery for a while it can be a good idea to charge only to say 38V for storage.

Third, if you could set a charge cut off voltage of say, 42.5V, you would have some protection against a charger failure potentially causing a battery fire.

However most all eBike chargers have a fixed charge limit of close to 42V, they are not normally adjustable, which in itself is maybe is a good idea for safety reasons.

There is a low cost device (£8.50) that will monitor the battery voltage with settable low and high voltage limits. This device is the XH-M602. It has a mains relay which allows it to turn on or off a connected battery charger according to the set limits.

52047

So if you set an upper limit of 42.5V and something went wrong with the charger then the XH-M602 will detect the over voltage and remove the mains power to the charger, thus maybe preventing a battery overcharge and\or fire. If you do only want to charge the battery to 41V, then just set that as the upper limit.

The XH-M602 is a bare PCB with mains connections and it would not be safe to use it on the bench uncased. So a simple box was needed.

Clip top food containers, the good ones, are fairly solid, easy to work as project boxes and cheap. I decided to use a 680ml one from Tesco.

The switched mains output is connected to a twin mains socket, one socket for the charger and another for a timer light, etc. I suggest that only those with experience of working with and building mains equipment attempt such a build.

The mains leads are fixed in place with grommets from TLC Electrical and there is a pair of shrouded multimeter style sockets to tap into the battery voltage. The matching plugs are shrouded, since using bare plugs would be a considerable hazard, all too easy to accidentality short something out and many many amps could flow from our battery.

The XH-M602 was mounted on hex threaded nylon pillars to bring the display and switches closer to the lid. The switches were extended outside of the box by gluing and heat shrinking some short rods to the top of the switches on the PCB. The assembled charger controller is shown below. Easy to secure the lid with self tapping screws if you wish.

52048

I needed a lead set to go between the battery and the charger which would allow the charger controller to monitor the battery voltage. The shrouded multimeter plugs in the picture above go in the sockets on the charger controller. There is a fuse in-line with the battery positive. If you wanted to check the accuracy of the XH-M602 voltage display then the shrouded plugs used have a 4mm socket on them allowing you to daisy chain and plug in additional leads such as for a separate multimeter. The battery leads are on the bottom left and the charger connects to the anderson powerpole connectors on the bottom right.

I discovered a problem however, the Swytch battery\controller pack does not appear to connect the battery to the charge socket unless there is a voltage present on the socket from the charger. So the XH-M602 does not see a battery voltage and leaves the charger mains off. To correct this problem you need to force the charger to initially switch on so its output voltage then turns on the battery and the XH-M602 is happy.

The circuit of the XH-M602 looks straightforward there is a 12V relay switching the mains for the charger with one end of its coil connected to +12V and the other end grounded by an open drain or open collector transistor. So all we need is a push to make switch with one wire to the open drain or open collector transistor (or the anode of the diode across the relay coil) and the other end to circuit ground.

I made the change and the charger, if needed, can now be forced on at the beginning of the charge cycle, hold the button down for a few seconds, release it and the charger should now stay powered, assuming the battery is not equal or higher than the stop voltage.

The XH-M602 is a low cost option that allows you to take control of the charging process and you can charge your batteries to the voltage you choose as long as its within the chargers limits.


52049
 
Last edited:

guerney

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 7, 2021
11,390
3,234
There is a low cost device (£8.50) that will monitor the battery voltage with settable low and high voltage limits. This device is the XH-M602. It has a mains relay which allows it to turn on or off a connected battery charger according to the set limits.
If a charger goes haywire for some reason, and starts providing higher than it's normal charging voltage - risking your house and all it contains - this could switch it off, if the upper limit is set slightly higher than the charger's normal output.

Delivery from (allegedly) within the UK for a few pennies more:

 
  • Like
Reactions: Bikes4two

StuartsProjects

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 9, 2021
1,786
1,009
If a charger goes haywire for some reason, and starts providing higher than it's normal charging voltage, this could switch it off, if the upper limit is set slightly higher than the charger's normal output.
Indeed so, from the post;

"if you could set a charge cut off voltage of say, 42.5V, you would have some protection against a charger failure potentially causing a battery fire."
 
  • Agree
Reactions: guerney

saneagle

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 10, 2010
6,812
3,150
Telford
Great project, but a complete waste of time and money. You cannot regularly under-charge a lithium battery that has a normal top-balancing BMS, especially on a 1P battery, where the higher cell current will knock it out of balance. If you wanted to under-charge, all you need is a 10S lithium charger that charges the cells individually through separate channels, or you could use two 6S lipo chargers with an adapter lead. In that case, you don't need a BMS.

Most normal 36v chargers are indeed adjustable if you can get them open. if you want to do a storage charge, you just put it on the charger until it reaches the voltage you want. The exact value isn't important as long as it's not full or empty.

When you use your system, before drawing any conclusions, you should check whether the balancing is kicking in at whatever voltage you choose to charge to. You can tell by putting your finger over the bleed resistors in the BMS. They become warm when dissipating the charge, and that's why measuring the charge energy isn't accurate, because at some point the bleed resistors open and the power goes out of your charger and heats the environment instead of charging the battery. That's without considering all the other losses.

Finally, 5Ah 21700s cost £6 each, so £60 for a 5Ah battery. How long do you expect to extend their life by to claw back the cost of all that special charger you made?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Bikes4two

saneagle

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 10, 2010
6,812
3,150
Telford
Do you have a link, where do you get an eBike battery of 10S1P in 5Ahr 21700s for £60 ?

You could have built three batteries for £15 each. So what if they only last for half as long. When the battery gets tired, just swap in the next cell-pack of 10. It's about as close to a free battery as you can get. there are also loads of people selling similar cells at similar prices taken out of crashes Teslas:
 
Last edited:

StuartsProjects

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 9, 2021
1,786
1,009
Not at all intersted in the price of individual cells.

Where can I buy an eBike battery consisting of 10S1P in 5Ahr 21700s for £60 ?
 
Last edited:

StuartsProjects

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 9, 2021
1,786
1,009
Finally, 5Ah 21700s cost £6 each, so £60 for a 5Ah battery. How long do you expect to extend their life by to claw back the cost of all that special charger you made?
The cost of some 5Ah 21700s might well be £6 each, but then of course it has to be built with a BMS.

The cost of the 10S1P I ordered was £225, so slightly different to £60.

The 'special charger' cost maybe £25 to build.
 

StuartsProjects

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 9, 2021
1,786
1,009
There is no possibility of me have a battery built from alledged used Dyson cells bought on eBay.

Far too risky in my view, although there may be some who consider the considerable cost savings worth the risk.
 

Nealh

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 7, 2014
20,917
8,533
61
West Sx RH
My 12s2p of Molicel p42a cost me < £100 to build, I prefer to build all mine so that I can use cells of my choice.
My 12s2p drinks bottle battery of HG2 cells was less < £80 I think.
A good arduino spot welder soon pays for it self.