Ebikes and the Unfit Very Heavy Rider - A Cautionary Tale for Newcomers

[FatBob]

I want to preface this post by stressing this is simply one individual's experience and is not meant to reflect that of all other unfit very heavy riders. That said, hopefully it will also help prospective newcomers, particularly those who are unsure if ebikes will meet their need and who may have been influenced by videos on YouTube or accounts from not-so-heavy/more active relatives, friends or colleagues.

The short version of this is absolutely make sure you try out a bike first or take a potential bike for a test drive.

If you are a very heavy rider (which for sake of argument translates here as a good proportion (e.g. 30 kg/ 65 lbs) in excess of the 120 kg / 265 lbs testing limit most bikes seem to be manufactured to) then the question to ask is how cycle-fit are you? If you haven't regularly cycled or regularly engaged in genuine out-of-breath exercise for a while, or have strong cycling legs then it likely you will be surprised by just how much hard work is needed even with PAS (pedal assist).

The reality is that cycling an ebike feels very much like riding an ordinary bike with small differences. On the 'flat' you may vary between assist levels 1 & 2 (on a typical 5-level PAS). However, remember that unless you're very used to cycling or have strong leg muscles and decent cardiovascular system, it will feel very much like riding an ordinary bike and that you're having to put in a lot of pedal work. Forget any ideas or videos you may have seen of you pedalling relatively easily while you glide over the flat terrain. Also, forget rides longer than more than a couple miles (over flat), you simply won't make it.

When you come to very short (e.g. 20 yard) sections of gentle incline you may feel the need to use PAS level 3. For longer sections of gentle inclines (e.g. 50 yards @ 3%) you will notice your speed drop sharply and you have to pedal even harder not to come to a standstill, making you more out of breath. It's at this point you have to engage PAS 4 & 5 whilst pedalling hard just to get you to the crest of the 50-yard gentle incline as if you were on Mt Ventoux. As before, put out your mind any any ideas of using PAS level 5 to tackle mile-long 8% gradient hills.

The fact is, even a 'flat' ride of couple miles will make you feel like you've had a very hard workout and possibly sick.

For bikes with 250 W motors, it is extremely unlikely that minor differences between set ups (cadence vs torque, mid vs hub, CX motor etc etc) will make any significant difference to the journey.

If you are an unfit very heavy rider ebikes will only be useful to you if you intend to use them to aid improve your fitness and strength levels over a very long period. You will have to put in a lot of physical effort for even very short flat journeys. They are most certainly not mopeds with pedalling!

If you still want to try an ebike make sure you try it out first / book a test ride.

I hope this account will help inform very heavy riders looking into getting an ebike.

 

[Deleted member 33385]

Doctor didn't have a clue.

General Practitioners are only generally knowledgeable. You can ask your Doctor for a referral to a specialist, who is far more likely to have a clue. Failing that - find a better Doctor!

 

[vfr400]

General Practitioners are only generally knowledgeable. You can ask your Doctor for a referral to a specialist, who is far more likely to have a clue. Failing that - find a better Doctor!

Good GPs are very few and far between. They don't like to refer you because they have to pay. I think i must have seen 30 different GPs since 1982. I wouldn't trust any of them to sort me out. None of them were anything like those ones you see on the TV. None will listen to what you have to say.

 

[FatBob]

I think this sort of recently uploaded video is really useful in giving a more realistic view of ebikes' utility, i.e. that ebikes may save you about x% energy but you still need to put in a great deal of physical effort.

 

[vfr400]

I think this sort of recently uploaded video is really useful in giving a more realistic view of ebikes' utility, i.e. that ebikes may save you about x% energy but you still need to put in a great deal of physical effort.

He makes a lot of good points, but fails to consider the diversity of ebikes. There are all sorts with different powers, weights and styles from mopeds to road bikes. He tried one at the extreme end of the spectrum. All his points were sound and very relevant to his mode of cycling. He also expanded them a bit, but for everyday people (people that come to Pedelecs forum), a wider context would have been better.

I think that ebikes are especially good at getting completely unfit people into riding, no matter how far or how often. AFAICS, most people that get an ebike become enthusiastic about them. When I worked in the shop and when I did the Cycle Show testing, I must have seen hundreds of thos ebike smiles. I guess you all know what I mean.

The best was at the London Cycle show. There was a group of about a dozen hardened cyclists came to me. they were all sort of 30 to 40 age group, very fit looking, wearing clothing, where you could recognise that they were proper cyclists. One of them sheepishly explained that he wanted to test a bike for a friend (maybe true), who couldn't attend. All his mates (all male) were laughing and jeering at him in a friendly way. Anyway off he went around the test track for a few laps. I could see his ebike smile. When he got back he was speechless. He kept scratching his head and rubbing his chin while leaning the bike over and looking at it from different angles. His mates noticed his unusual behaviour and were asking him what's up, but he seemed unable to reply.

Off they all went, cross-examining the guy as they disappeared into the distance. About 10 minutes later, they were all back again, all wanting a go on the bike. I think it was an Oxygen S-cross mk 1 - unrestricted of course.

 

[FatBob]

Hopefully I will have lost enough weight in 12 months to experience that smile.

 

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[Phil Dryden]

Hi Fatbob,
Don't give up. Keep plugging away. For your encouragement have a look at the series of posts from ElizaQ, a lady in her 70's regarding her first experiences with an ebike. I have cycled on and off all my life, and find it truly therapeutic. Just keep to rides that are enjoyable in terms of length and gradient, and you will soon start to really enjoy it. Increase the distance and vary the terrain only when you feel able. Remember cycling is individual; no one has to do distances or hills that others do. Just enjoy.

 

[FatBob]

Update
I felt bold enough early this morning to try out my work commute route, which includes a three-quarter mile average 5% gradient (max 8%) that I've had nightmares about and convinced myself that I'd have to walk up or would have a heart attack trying.

In the end it wasn't too bad. I managed the incline at maximum assistance and middling gears and the bike still maintained about 8 mph, which isn't too untidy.

My only continuing worries are doing this for real in the middle of rush hour: there are two sets of lights on the dual-carriageway hill and I will definitely struggle with a hill start if any turn red.

Also, and perhaps ironically, descending the incline was very interesting; going at at 20 mph (no pedalling) for the firt time on a bike, and I'd forgotten to wear my helmet. It dawned on me that should I slip on the greasy surface it'll not end well. This descent will be tricky in a busy commute situation as I'll have to indicate and manoeuvre into the RH lane at the bottom of the hill to take a side road off the carriageway at 20 mph and other vehicles whizzing past! There are some quieter routes but they're all steeper!

 

[Phil Dryden]

Update
I felt bold enough early this morning to try out my work commute route, which includes a three-quarter mile average 5% gradient (max 8%) that I've had nightmares about and convinced myself that I'd have to walk up or would have a heart attack trying.

In the end it wasn't too bad. I managed the incline at maximum assistance and middling gears and the bike still maintained about 8 mph, which isn't too untidy.

My only continuing worries are doing this for real in the middle of rush hour: there are two sets of lights on the dual-carriageway hill and I will definitely struggle with a hill start if any turn red.

Also, and perhaps ironically, descending the incline was very interesting; going at at 20 mph (no pedalling) for the firt time on a bike, and I'd forgotten to wear my helmet. It dawned on me that should I slip on the greasy surface it'll not end well. This descent will be tricky in a busy commute situation as I'll have to indicate and manoeuvre into the RH lane at the bottom of the hill to take a side road off the carriageway at 20 mph and other vehicles whizzing past! There are some quieter routes but they're all steeper!

Thats great news, Bob. You have got to be encouraged by that! Re the helmet, I never venture out without one. No good if you get a whack from a juggernaut, but could be a lifesaver in many lesser situations. No brainer as far as I'm concerned, though some will have a different viewpoint! Keep up the good work, and you will reap the benefits.

 

[Scorpio]

Hi Bob, congratulations on your progress. I found my earlier rides were held back by a lack of confidence & fitness, both improved a lot last year due to regular rides on the ebike. It sounds like you are finding the same

Since I was a kid I have been strongly against compulsory cycle helmets and I've never felt the need to own one. A few months after I got my Ebike I bought my first ever helmet as I was riding greater distances at higher speeds. On some rides (mainly road routes) I wear the helmet , on others (slow countryside tracks with no traffic) I often don't. It's personal choice, but having a helmet means you have the option to wear it when needed. I also wear bright clothing when on road routes as a safety precuation, and use rear lights once it gets even slightly dark.

 

[Bonzo Banana]

Update
I felt bold enough early this morning to try out my work commute route, which includes a three-quarter mile average 5% gradient (max 8%) that I've had nightmares about and convinced myself that I'd have to walk up or would have a heart attack trying.

In the end it wasn't too bad. I managed the incline at maximum assistance and middling gears and the bike still maintained about 8 mph, which isn't too untidy.

My only continuing worries are doing this for real in the middle of rush hour: there are two sets of lights on the dual-carriageway hill and I will definitely struggle with a hill start if any turn red.

Also, and perhaps ironically, descending the incline was very interesting; going at at 20 mph (no pedalling) for the firt time on a bike, and I'd forgotten to wear my helmet. It dawned on me that should I slip on the greasy surface it'll not end well. This descent will be tricky in a busy commute situation as I'll have to indicate and manoeuvre into the RH lane at the bottom of the hill to take a side road off the carriageway at 20 mph and other vehicles whizzing past! There are some quieter routes but they're all steeper!

There is no shame in getting off and walking sometimes for hilly sections. When a heavy rider tries to get up a steep hill that puts a lot of extra stress and fatigue on the frame in the bottom bracket area as you work hard to cycle up the hill but often its very slow and seems pointless damaging the components of your bike for such a slow incline often at close to walking pace anyway. If your ebike has walk assist that is probably the best function to use up a hill. Also it puts huge extra strain and wear on the chain, chainrings and cogset. So its not a bad idea to give your bike a break rather than break your bike when it comes to steeper hills.

 

[FatBob]

There is no shame in getting off and walking sometimes for hilly sections. When a heavy rider tries to get up a steep hill that puts a lot of extra stress and fatigue on the frame in the bottom bracket area as you work hard to cycle up the hill but often its very slow and seems pointless damaging the components of your bike for such a slow incline often at close to walking pace anyway. If your ebike has walk assist that is probably the best function to use up a hill. Also it puts huge extra strain and wear on the chain, chainrings and cogset. So its not a bad idea to give your bike a break rather than break your bike when it comes to steeper hills.

Funnily enough I tried the work commute early this morning along a quieter but steeper route. I was forced to get off at one point and use the walk assist to get me to a less steep section before a rather inelegant hill start.

 

[GLJoe]

I lost weight (about 1 stone per month) but I started suffering multiple migraine episodes every day (visual aura followed by the most awful headaches) so gave up after about three months!! Doctor didn't have a clue.

When your body gets exposed to more toxins than it can naturally deal with and excrete, it does the next best thing and stores them away in fat cells (in fact, its now theorised that it can make MORE fat cells specifically to store an excess of toxins! so its not just over consumption of calories that can make you fat).
The problem is, while these toxins and heavy metals etc are wrapped up in the fat, they are fairly inert. However when you lose weight and metabolise your fat, you release the toxins back into your blood supply. Its fairly common for a large release to result in symptoms such as headaches.
I'm not saying that's what happened to you for certain, however people should be aware of this phenomena as in some cases it can be pretty dangerous, since its very possible that once the toxins get released, they circulate in your system, do damage, but then get reabsorbed rather then excreted!
This is why doctors that specialise in detoxification protocols ensure that things such as chelating agents are also used at appropriate times in the day, so that these bind to the toxins, allowing you to excrete them. Saunas etc are often also used as part of the treatment regimen.
Its one thing to 'burn' the fat, but its equally important to get the waste products out, especially if you're burning a lot, and/or you're carrying a heavy toxic load (and more people are than is commonly realised!). Its probably where the age old advice of 'drink lots of water' when dieting comes from. I'm sure this helps for a lot of people, but for others, one might want to consider additional supplementation and its important to understand the intricacies of not only what, but when to take them.

Lots of info out there on this, however if anyone is interested in the research, I found that despite the rather dodgy title, the book "the detox diet", by Dr Paula Baillie-Hamilton had a lot of excellent references to scientific literature explaining the background to a lot of this stuff. Literally thousands of citations.

 

[GLJoe]

He makes a lot of good points, but fails to consider the diversity of ebikes.

I actually follow Leonard on youtube. He's very personable and down to earth and he does seem to have been a keen cyclist for decades. I like him!
However he's got VERY little knowledge or experience of ebikes. Its just that he's got a youtube channel, and IIRC, for that video, he'd ridden one model out in Italy (which might have been a fazua or similar based one) and more recently, he's now been given the opportunity to try some kind of (low end?) hub drive mountain bike.
Its interesting hearing his commentary, but many people on this forum have orders of magnitude more knowledge and experience on ebikes.

 

[Yak]

I actually follow Leonard on youtube. He's very personable and down to earth and he does seem to have been a keen cyclist for decades. I like him!

Yes, I’d recommend any larger riders to look up Leonard Lee on YouTube; lots of cycling knowledge, much relating to being a fat cyclist. He inspired me to start up again, so I guess my 25kg loss is down to him. This guy also very good - he was inspired by Leonard Lee and has lost 25kgs. He’s now riding up mountains on his ebike...

 

[Bonzo Banana]

I actually follow Leonard on youtube. He's very personable and down to earth and he does seem to have been a keen cyclist for decades. I like him!
However he's got VERY little knowledge or experience of ebikes. Its just that he's got a youtube channel, and IIRC, for that video, he'd ridden one model out in Italy (which might have been a fazua or similar based one) and more recently, he's now been given the opportunity to try some kind of (low end?) hub drive mountain bike.
Its interesting hearing his commentary, but many people on this forum have orders of magnitude more knowledge and experience on ebikes.

I don't know why but I found it quite amusing watching him ride that entry level ebike. He normally rides I guess you would say mid-range road bikes and so was interesting to see his perspective on a low end tourney freewheel based drivetrain. His perspective is as valid as anyone else's I guess. Cyclists have vastly different opinions all valid really and based on their perspective. One person's perfect bike is another person's weak and overpriced bike. One person's favourite brand with a lot of heritage is another person's extra £2k wasted for no gain. One person's great value bike is another person's garbage bike they wouldn't be seen dead on.

I think it was an Isle of Wight ride he went on a year or so back where he had a lighter more elderly friend who had a basic Carrera Virtuoso road bike I think and could see was pretty much going slow to stay with Leonard despite Leonard being on a much more expensive road bike. Like most cycling videos on youtube most of the bits where the cyclist is really struggling up a hill are edited out unless that is part of the subject matter of the video. I've seen so many videos where it looks like 99% of the time the bikes are going at high speed.

Even with ebikes there are vastly different views from so called experts. You have to decant the conflicting information down to what works for you. Bike shops especially have to tailor their viewpoint to meet their commercial interests.

 

[MichaelM]

Trying to tease out this torque to power relationship... when e.g. Bosch says its ALP motor provides 50Nm torque, where is that? At the motor shaft, the crank shaft, or the axle of the driven wheel? It has to be the crankshaft to make any sense at all doesn't it? Gearing between motor shaft and crank (or axle for hub drive) differs, as does that of crank to driven wheel ?

Using kW=N.m x RPM/9.5488, 50Nm at a cadence of 60 should produce about 300W at the crank, which sounds roughly congruent with what a nominally 250W motor might do. 300W at 36V implies c. 9A of current - not ridiculous. I have no idea how to factor in conversion efficiency but that seems credible.

To get that~ 300W on the Bosch ALP, based on the claimed torque addition factors, would (simply and theoretically) require a rider input of
750W at +40% (ECO) (ridiculously unrealistic, also unnecessary unless 1050W is needed to climb the hill)
350W at 100% (TOUR) (elite cyclist maybe?)
167W at 180% (SPORT) (fit, trained?)
111W at 270% (TURBO) (maybe possible for an untrained, unfit cyclist for a few minutes?)

which doesn't sound totally fantastical but would explain why I can't get up hills very fast in ECO!

Of course I haven't considered speed - the actual power needed would reduce with every downchange, as would the speed). And would depend on weight, bike weight, wind...

http://bikecalculator.com/ might help to estimate the actual power required - but having messed about with it, it perhaps isn't surprising that I (c. 115Kg including bike) end up doing a bit above walking pace up a reasonable hill in Turbo mode, selecting whichever gear keeps my cadence around the 60 level.

I suspect that the cumulative effect of quite a few assumptions here mean it's quite a bit off, or they might have offset each other so it's somewhere near. I've also glossed over the weight issue, just doing the basics.

I might try to produce a fuller data table for this sometime if I am barking up the right tree?

EDIT: I've also only just noticed that the maximum torque varies by mode, according to Bosch - Mode / Nm.
TURBO: 50
SPORT: 45
TOUR: 40
ECO: 35

 

[Bonzo Banana]

Trying to tease out this torque to power relationship... when e.g. Bosch says its ALP motor provides 50Nm torque, where is that? At the motor shaft, the crank shaft, or the axle of the driven wheel? It has to be the crankshaft to make any sense at all doesn't it? Gearing between motor shaft and crank (or axle for hub drive) differs, as does that of crank to driven wheel ?

Using kW=N.m x RPM/9.5488, 50Nm at a cadence of 60 should produce about 300W at the crank, which sounds roughly congruent with what a nominally 250W motor might do. 300W at 36V implies c. 9A of current - not ridiculous. I have no idea how to factor in conversion efficiency but that seems credible.

To get that~ 300W on the Bosch ALP, based on the claimed torque addition factors, would (simply and theoretically) require a rider input of
750W at +40% (ECO) (ridiculously unrealistic, also unnecessary unless 1050W is needed to climb the hill)
350W at 100% (TOUR) (elite cyclist maybe?)
167W at 180% (SPORT) (fit, trained?)
111W at 270% (TURBO) (maybe possible for an untrained, unfit cyclist for a few minutes?)

which doesn't sound totally fantastical but would explain why I can't get up hills very fast in ECO!

Of course I haven't considered speed - the actual power needed would reduce with every downchange, as would the speed). And would depend on weight, bike weight, wind...

http://bikecalculator.com/ might help to estimate the actual power required - but having messed about with it, it perhaps isn't surprising that I (c. 115Kg including bike) end up doing a bit above walking pace up a reasonable hill in Turbo mode, selecting whichever gear keeps my cadence around the 60 level.

I suspect that the cumulative effect of quite a few assumptions here mean it's quite a bit off, or they might have offset each other so it's somewhere near. I've also glossed over the weight issue, just doing the basics.

I might try to produce a fuller data table for this sometime if I am barking up the right tree?

EDIT: I've also only just noticed that the maximum torque varies by mode, according to Bosch - Mode / Nm.
TURBO: 50
SPORT: 45
TOUR: 40
ECO: 35

I'm sure they all measure at the crank/bottom bracket axle. There are some many variables to incorporate into the power output of motors fitted to ebikes. For a start many of these so called 250W nominal/rated motors often peak at upto 700W or more and that is perfectly legal commercial ebikes. On a mid-drive motor you lose about 2-4Nm or is it 2-4% through the chain. Obviously the gear ratio has a huge effect as well. If you have a motor delivering 45Nm at the crank but you are in a gear with 36T chainring at the front and 12T on the cassette you only get 15Nm at the rear measured at the hub minus the chain loss power and then wheel size is a factor. I often hear people say a hub motor feels more powerful and I guess that is because its independent of the gear system so whatever gear you are in lets say it can deliver its full power (measured at the hub) which is usable on even flattish roads. However when it comes to steep hills the mid-drive becomes more effective. On paper you can make a strong case for the efficiency of the mid-drive power delivery but in the real world it is a much more complicated motor with a lot more issues in how it delivers power with more rapid wear of the drivetrain components and a much harder time as the rider's power is also delivered through the same axle the motor is connected to which is often a much smaller motor with much higher gearing often achieved with plastic/nylon cogs and occasionally belts.

I much prefer hub motors for a general use ebike but no question a real e-mountain bike pretty much has to have a mid-drive motor because of the superior way it delivers its power.

For a heavy rider I feel the direct drive hub motor is the way to go purely because of its robustness and engineering simplicity and no other reason than that. It may not be the most efficient though except it can have regenerative braking with both recoups power but also save's brake pad wear which is a big issue with heavier riders.

The market is dominated by geared hub motors though, they are fitted to the majority of ebikes sold and probably are the best choice for general cyclists who aren't too heavy.

 

[FatBob]

So, got up a silly o'clock to guarantee empty roads and managed my longest ride so far of 7.3 miles according to the Bafang C961 display (although all the maps/routers say 7.8 miles...) – don't laugh! I could have gone further but was worried about the gradient at the end of the return leg. Luckily most lights were with me so not too much trouble with hill starts. It was my first ride for nearly two weeks and was surprised I didn't collapse at the end of it as after earlier rides. Knees are feeling very sore though so may just go for a short ride tomorrow. Still a very long way off riding at normal times when roads are busy.

 

[Phil Dryden]

Nice to get back to the original thread posted by the OP!! Great to see you are still at it, Bob. If you have had a bit of a lay-off for a couple of weeks, and are now trying for a longer distance you will feel it in the legs. Especially the knees and the thigh muscles immediately above the knees. If its just an aching soreness I wouldn't worry too much - it will wear off after a few more rides. If its a sharper pain it could be a tendon/cartilage, or similar and get it checked out. Cycling is known, though, for being generally kind to knees unless there is pre-existing damage or accident injury. The more consistently you are able to get out even for fairly short rides, the better. Just don't try too much too soon, especially after a layoff. Great for riding this weekend!