e-cigarettes
- Thread starter gerryscott
- Start date
How typically enlightened of a British workplace .... does steam coming from a battery-powered device really cause that much offence ?
It's not steam - it's glycol (or glycerin) vapour laced with nicotine - which can cause problems for those who are sensitive to nicotine. You can still "smoke" them outside but not inside.
Also, there is concern at the unregulated nature of ecigs and the highly variably quality of the devices and the "liquid" so the UK is set to reclassify them as medicines which is quite right imho seeing as nicotine is a paralytic drug with toxic effects resulting from relatively low overdoses.
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I take your point, but since the core problem is the variable quality of the devices and the consequent unknown amounts of nicotine application, surely this classification as medicines is wrong, since it doesn't solve the problem.
It's the devices which should be classified as medical equipment subject to approval testing for satisfactory performance standards and consistency over time before they are allowed on the market. That would solve the possible problem.
The notion that 2nd hand eCig vapour is going to cause health problems to the extent of needing to be banned is nothing short of laughable. Perhaps many have forgotten that we all used to huddle round fires breathing in real smoke every day and some people lived to ripe old ages nonetheless.
We're all getting poisoned on a daily basis from the consequences of modern food production techniques and vehicle emissions. Pointing fingers at this sort of thing is basically ridiculous in a relative sense. The concentrations of nicotine in 2nd hand eCig vapour are going to be next to negligible.
We're all getting poisoned on a daily basis from the consequences of modern food production techniques and vehicle emissions. Pointing fingers at this sort of thing is basically ridiculous in a relative sense. The concentrations of nicotine in 2nd hand eCig vapour are going to be next to negligible.
I agree with this.
i still huddle round real fires and love it, the price of gas and electric will see more people doing so in near future i am sure,amigafan a lot of people vape without nicotine in there mixture .this sounds like[ i heard the news last night ,they said its bad ,that must be right so ill ban it ] just heard news that another cyclist has died in perth,an R T A with a van yesterday.
I recently read of a report from a French University that had been running a survey of pollution across various European conurbations over some 10 years. The most striking statistic they found was a very strong correlation between the dramatic increase of diesel usage in cars, and the occurrence of childhood Asthma. However, nobody seems to give a toss about that, which I find galling.
As a lifelong motorcyclist I find it extremely unpleasant having to inhale the highly carcinogenic particulates that spew out of every diesel vehicle on the road. To then read of the sanctimonious comments on BBC news about how E-Cigarettes might be dangerous is laughable.
But then, corruption and vested interests are everywhere, and I should know better than to moan about it on the internet!
As a lifelong motorcyclist I find it extremely unpleasant having to inhale the highly carcinogenic particulates that spew out of every diesel vehicle on the road. To then read of the sanctimonious comments on BBC news about how E-Cigarettes might be dangerous is laughable.
But then, corruption and vested interests are everywhere, and I should know better than to moan about it on the internet!
The powers that be keep on about the fact that some e cigs do not give a consistent "dose" of nicotine, and that this can lead to a nicotine overdose. This is pure fantasy, obviously made up by someone who has never smoked. I have two reasons for saying this. First of all, not all the cigarettes in a packet will have the same "dose" of nicotine, because a cigarette is basically tobacco leaves rolled up in paper. Even with genetic engineering, we can not grow a plant such that all the leaves have an equal amount of nicotine. Even if we could, there will be variations between plants, and between fields of plants.
Suppose you are a smoker, and normally smoke the cigarettes that have the lowest nicotine content available. Someone gives you a cigarette which is the strongest available. With the first drag, you become aware of its strength, and take fewer puffs, inhaling less deeply. You don`t die, or pass out. You may feel slightly dizzy, or nausious, but you regulate your smoking behavior to adapt. This is called "Self Titration" and is a recognised medical phenomenon. To some extent, it is the same with alcohol. If you normally drink six pints of shandy at a sitting, and someone gives you some strong beer, by the time you have drunk a pint, or two at the most, you will know it is time to quit.
As I say, this is just fantasy to justify medical regulation. I suffered a nicotine overdose, aged twelve, from smoking a hand full of dog ends in a pipe. Long before there are any permanent effects, you are far too busy vomiting to continue smoking. Been there, done that, still got the [stained] teeshirt.
Suppose you are a smoker, and normally smoke the cigarettes that have the lowest nicotine content available. Someone gives you a cigarette which is the strongest available. With the first drag, you become aware of its strength, and take fewer puffs, inhaling less deeply. You don`t die, or pass out. You may feel slightly dizzy, or nausious, but you regulate your smoking behavior to adapt. This is called "Self Titration" and is a recognised medical phenomenon. To some extent, it is the same with alcohol. If you normally drink six pints of shandy at a sitting, and someone gives you some strong beer, by the time you have drunk a pint, or two at the most, you will know it is time to quit.
As I say, this is just fantasy to justify medical regulation. I suffered a nicotine overdose, aged twelve, from smoking a hand full of dog ends in a pipe. Long before there are any permanent effects, you are far too busy vomiting to continue smoking. Been there, done that, still got the [stained] teeshirt.
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I don't know what to make of it all.
Last week end, my friends were intrigued by my ecig, but two of them went on to assure me that smoking tobacco damages your lungs and that it can never be repaired. They then went on to catalogue smokers that they knew who had died of all sorts of dreadful things in their 50's and 60's
I challenged them on this and claimed that alcohol is far more dangerous because I knew that both of them like to drink quite a bit.
They would not have it that alcohol is dangerous if used in moderation. I pointed out that second hand smoke is a bit of a myth in that if you went into a pub and stayed long enough for the smoke to endanger you, the alcohol that you drink would be far worse for you.
I then had to listen to the tiresome account that I have heard from others that as children when their parents smoked etc., the usual streaming eyes, sore throats etc.
I pointed out that I did not smoke as a child, but did not suffer these problems they allege they did.
I challenged the damaged lungs story because I smoked for 50 years without any apparent problems.
I told them that both my Mother and Sister died of cancer but never smoked. 'Second hand smoke' was the quick reply.
I also told them of the large number of people that I knew who died from alcoholism, but they did not want to know this.
Last week end, my friends were intrigued by my ecig, but two of them went on to assure me that smoking tobacco damages your lungs and that it can never be repaired. They then went on to catalogue smokers that they knew who had died of all sorts of dreadful things in their 50's and 60's
I challenged them on this and claimed that alcohol is far more dangerous because I knew that both of them like to drink quite a bit.
They would not have it that alcohol is dangerous if used in moderation. I pointed out that second hand smoke is a bit of a myth in that if you went into a pub and stayed long enough for the smoke to endanger you, the alcohol that you drink would be far worse for you.
I then had to listen to the tiresome account that I have heard from others that as children when their parents smoked etc., the usual streaming eyes, sore throats etc.
I pointed out that I did not smoke as a child, but did not suffer these problems they allege they did.
I challenged the damaged lungs story because I smoked for 50 years without any apparent problems.
I told them that both my Mother and Sister died of cancer but never smoked. 'Second hand smoke' was the quick reply.
I also told them of the large number of people that I knew who died from alcoholism, but they did not want to know this.
I also seem to remember glycerine, when mixed with honey & lemon, was a traditional product for soothing the effects of colds and coughs. So glycerine vapour's unlikely to be anything negative in the environment - probably the opposite in fact.
Perhaps we should all wear Michael Jackson face masks on the off chance our lives might be shortened by contact by a microscopic amount of noxious evil (joke) nicotine particles in some vaporized glycerine. Sitting in a workplace in the Winter surrounded by flu-ridden colleagues or touching germ-ridden shopping trolleys and stop buttons on a bus is surely far more of a risk to anyone's health than a bit of e-Cig exhalation.
For heavens' sake when does the nonsense ever stop ? Fear and doubt fed to a load of paranoid business owners surrounded by litigous ambulance chaser-types making up stories to line their pockets. The sad thing is they're actually taken seriously and the grab-a-headline soundbite media bregade are the scourge of the Western world with their trite propaganda which does nothing but stir up a whole load of speculation over nowt.
Perhaps we should all wear Michael Jackson face masks on the off chance our lives might be shortened by contact by a microscopic amount of noxious evil (joke) nicotine particles in some vaporized glycerine. Sitting in a workplace in the Winter surrounded by flu-ridden colleagues or touching germ-ridden shopping trolleys and stop buttons on a bus is surely far more of a risk to anyone's health than a bit of e-Cig exhalation.
For heavens' sake when does the nonsense ever stop ? Fear and doubt fed to a load of paranoid business owners surrounded by litigous ambulance chaser-types making up stories to line their pockets. The sad thing is they're actually taken seriously and the grab-a-headline soundbite media bregade are the scourge of the Western world with their trite propaganda which does nothing but stir up a whole load of speculation over nowt.
It's hard to overdose via smoking becuase as you say, you hit the limit on the other aspects smoking brings to the table but it's actually easy to overdose when you liquify it - I remember an assistant at our science lab being hospitalised when he spilt a thimble full on the back of his hand - nicotine is readily absorbed into the blood stream and it actually has a higher toxicity than cocaine - it's something like only 1mg/kg for nicotine and 30mg/kg for Cocaine - Nicotine is highly toxic - regardless of what many may think. It's very low dosage in cigarettes - which is why there is concern over the ecig fluids - alot of them have relatively high concentrations of Nicotine compared to cigarettes.
Nicotine patches and nicotine gum etc are all medicines and regulated for a reason - the same reason is why ecigs should be regulated.
As someone who is highly sensitive to nicotine, I apreciate colleagues not being able to subject me to exposure.
Wow - that's a classic case of cognitive dissociation if ever I saw one!
But hey - you're free to do whatever you want, even if it affects your health, whether you believe it or not. Don't just force your choice on others ok?
FYI - I don't drink alcohol for 364 days of the year either ;-)
Another FYI - I don't actually agree with a mandatory ban of smoking in pubs (it should be up to the pub). As a non smoker I can choose not to visit a pub that allows smoking. However I do agree with banning smoking/ecigs in the workplace - at least indoors and in the entrance ways - I can't very well choose not to come in to work can I? However, you then get into a circular argument - a pub is also a workplace and the union rep side of me would see the workers protected rather than pander to the simplistic needs of the client.
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I would never inflict my second hand vapour in anyone if they object, and am happy to vape outside at someones house if ask. IMO, no one should be forced to work in an atmosphere they are not happy with, and that definitely includes some deoderants and perfumes.Re the toxicity of nicotine. Pure nicotine is dangerous. However the strongest solution that can be legally imported is 75 mg/ ml, which is 7.5% nicotine. The strongest solution likely to be found in e cigs is 3.6%. At these strengths, it is quite safe if handled with respect. If you spill it on the skin, there are no effects if it is washed off right away, or within a few minutes. So in a sense it is no more dangerous than bleach.
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There was a short mention of e-cigs on the BBC Radio 4 "You and Yours" program today at roughly 12 minutes in. In particular they mentioned the total ban in three countries including Norway and Brazil, the latter clearly being a problem for those going to the next Olympic Games there. The also mentioned by name a number of the many countries who have restrictive laws on them. I suppose that could cause problems for anyone holidaying at those locations and apparently fines can apply or prison sentences for bringing in anything to do with e-smoking for sale.
Interestingly I've been speaking conducting some research for the TUC about it over the last couples of months and they've issued a couple of statements, the latest on Wednesday:-
Trades Union Congress - Risks 595 - 2 March 2013
Trades Union Congress - More evidence needed on claims made for e-cigarettes, says TUC
Trades Union Congress - Risks 595 - 2 March 2013
Trades Union Congress - More evidence needed on claims made for e-cigarettes, says TUC
Commenting on the announcement today (Wednesday) that e-cigarettes are to be regulated, TUC General Secretary Frances O'Grady said: 'E-cigarettes may be a useful tool in helping smokers give up but we need proper evidence that this is actually the case, as well as more on their safety - not just statements from the companies which manufacture them.
'No-one should be using e-cigarettes at work in an attempt to get round the smoking ban. Not only should people have the right to clean air at work, allowing their use in places where smoking is no longer allowed will make it less likely that people give up. The danger is that many smokers will simply use e-cigarettes in addition to their usual tobacco ones, rather than instead of them.
'Reclassification of e-cigarettes should also happen now - we shouldn't have to wait for another three years for the change.'
Another ignorant toss pot throws their oar into the debate!
With regard to the rights to clean air, until farting at work is made a disciplinary offence I don't see how eCigs can have fingers pointed at them.
It's perfectly simple - many people visiting these countries deprived of their eCigs wind up just picking up a cigarette and starting smoking again. I know a fair few of my age group who did just that.
So ... enjoy the temporary freedom to smoke your electronic cigarettes in public before you are branded once again an evil miscreant. The minute they are officially banned on the trains / buses I buy a car again, resume causing major pollution and boycott public transport completely. Well done media and TUC. Great result.
I've a whole host of new countries on my "no travel list". Since I couldn't be bothered to go to Olympic Games related events in my own country flying half way across the world to do the same isn;t a problem for some of us !
It's perfectly simple - many people visiting these countries deprived of their eCigs wind up just picking up a cigarette and starting smoking again. I know a fair few of my age group who did just that.
So ... enjoy the temporary freedom to smoke your electronic cigarettes in public before you are branded once again an evil miscreant. The minute they are officially banned on the trains / buses I buy a car again, resume causing major pollution and boycott public transport completely. Well done media and TUC. Great result.