E-bikes Great For Physio

As I have metioned before on earlier threads the reason for buying an e-bike was a reoccurring problem with patella tendinitis. This was caused by many contributing factors, one been bad cycle technique. I have been told by more talented cyclists that I don't get my cadence smooth enough when climbing hills & that I push too long in too high a gear, and this might cause me knee problems in the long run.

My patella tendinitis has improved dramatically since I started e-biking & would like to state what a great physio machine the e-bike is: you can exercise as much or as little you want with the twist of a throttle. Though I don't think I will be going back to ordinary bikes & pushing my luck. Anyway I enjoy My Forza too much now.

 

p.s. I also use good quality patella bands (aircast infrapatella band).

 

David.

Yes, thats a good warning to others hobo1.

 

Far too many utility cyclists use pedal cadences that are far too low, and when told, they usually say that pedalling fast feels uncomfortable. Of course they pay the penalty eventually.

 

Everyone who pedals slowly should regularly practice periods of higher pedal speeds and if they do that they will find it gradually feels more natural. Not only that, they'll also find their cycling power will be considerably increased.

 

And the final bonus is a far greater likelyhood of avoiding knee troubles in later years.

 

To explain the reason for the importance of high cadences, take a given stretch of hill needing 80 times X power to climb it. It could be climbed at a slow pedal rate of 40 turns per minute (cadence rate), or at a fast cadence rate of 80 turns per minute.

 

At the slow 40 rate there will be a force of 2 times X on the knees each stroke to complete the hill, at the high 80 rate a force of only 1 times X on the knees each stroke to make the 80 to complete the hill, half the strain. These separate small forces do not accumulate, they either damage at the time or they don't.

 

Keen club cyclists aim for the generally accepted optimum cadence of 90 per minute, and I've just returned from a fast 11 mile round trip Croydon and back at an average of 80 cadence nearly all the time, flat, uphill, and downhill.

 

The basis rule for physical health when cycling is, if in doubt, change down.

.

Edited August 9, 200718 yr by flecc

Thanks Flecc, I will try 80 cadence on my next trip out.

 

David.

Cadence

 

The basis rule for physical health when cycling is, if in doubt, change down.

.

 

I've always understood the rule was: If your thigh muscles hurt the gear is too high - if your lungs hurt the gear is too low.

Unfortunately, the gear is just right when everything hurts.

Peter

Nice one Peter, I will have to remember that .

 

David.

what a great physio machine the e-bike is: you can exercise as much or as little you want with the twist of a throttle.

 

Yes, I've found exactly the same thing David and is one of the reasons I got an ebike: glad you're enjoying the Forza!

 

On the subject of cadence & ebikes, I quite soon noticed that my cadence on the Torq was noticeably higher than on my MTB - about 85 vs 72 rpm - which I think is partly attributable to the slight resistance of the hub motor when pedalling i.e. constantly pedalling against a slight load instinctively tends to make one increase the cadence you pedal with. This was crucial to my choice of gearing change for the Torq, but the Forza already has a very healthy gear range I think so you shouldn't have too much trouble if you run out of juice (especially if its downhill!).

 

Stuart.

Thanks for the advice stuart, it's most welcome. I had started to use better cadence when the advice from other riders was given to me, but I think the problem was already there. You do pick up bad habits when you are a kid, & they tend to stay with you (well at least some do!). With my knees not been 100% yet I have to get a good cadence or I know about it.

 

David.

Edited August 10, 200718 yr by hobo1

I've never actually measured my cadence or really thought about it too much other than that the original high Torq gearing wasn't ideal for me. With that in mind I modified it to give a range of 37"-94" which suits me well. The 94" top gear is rather low by many peoples standards but with some help from gravity I can pedal at over 30 mph, and in bottom gear can grind up hills at 12 mph. I've just calculated that both of these correspond to what seems a fast cadence of 106 which I can keep up for quite long periods. Conversely, when it comes to standing on the pedals at lower lower cadences I quickly tire, both in the lungs and legs. I'm certainly not a fit athlete, I guess the faster cadence just suits my short (28") legs, a bit like an "oversquare" internal combustion engine giving revs rather than torque.

That's an interesting point about leg length and cadence.

 

I'm a 6 foot, 17.5 stone ex tight head prop with thighs and calves to match and am never going to dance lightly on the pedals like Fred Astaire - more likely to kick the pedals to submission like Red Rum ........................

 

Only coming to cycling recently as part of my re-hab after having a stroke I was told by a local 'expert' my cadence was to low, but I struggle to get up to and hold 80/85 and feel far more comfortable with a much lower cadence of around 65/70.

 

 

BB

What are these cyclists?

 

That's an interesting point about leg length and cadence.

 

I'm a 6 foot, 17.5 stone ex tight head prop with thighs and calves to match and am never going to dance lightly on the pedals like Fred Astaire - more likely to kick the pedals to submission like Red Rum ........................

 

Only coming to cycling recently as part of my re-hab after having a stroke I was told by a local 'expert' my cadence was to low, but I struggle to get up to and hold 80/85 and feel far more comfortable with a much lower cadence of around 65/70.

 

BB

 

Next time you are passing a cycle stand (where people park their cycles in Cities or at Shops), take a look at those with derailleur gears, they are all parked in TOP gear - Chain on biggest chain wheel and smallest rear sprocket.

There's a lot of tough people out there.

Peter

That's a very interesting observation Peter I seem to change down automatically now when I come to a stop; maybe some forget, or don't use the gears at all - riding like a fixed gear "time trial" bike .

 

I was very lucky, David, that I realised fairly early on that pushing hard on the pedals was not as economical as spinning more freely in a lower gear - mainly because I managed to wear out the crank bearings in bikes in my teenage years! (I think from a "destructive" push pedalling technique) .

 

I think its fair to say (and its probably been said here already) there's no hard-and-fast rule of "best" cadence, and some variables are the individuals body makeup and sometimes maybe the retraining of muscles not used to specific activities :-). Ian's cadence indicates more stamina while yours, BigBob, more strength, and while both could be "trained" to exemplify some more qualities of the other, there is I think a natural balance can be found which suits an individual best :-).

 

Another great thing about ebikes for physio, apart from exercising as much or as little as you want, is that you are constantly working many different body parts but enjoyably, in open air, and that makes it very much easier all round in my view :-).

 

Stuart.

Edited August 10, 200718 yr by coops

Stuart, I agree with your last comment 100%: certainly a lot better than stuck in a gym on an exercise cycle.

 

David.

Next time you are passing a cycle stand (where people park their cycles in Cities or at Shops), take a look at those with derailleur gears, they are all parked in TOP gear - Chain on biggest chain wheel and smallest rear sprocket.

There's a lot of tough people out there.

Peter

 

More likely foolish people Peter, who will regret it later when they're face to face with a specialist wondering what to do about their knee problem.

 

At my age I can no longer reach over the over 100 speeds that Ian can, but 80 is comfortable and the occasional higher burst to well over 90 is ok. I don't see a large person using a 70 cadence as a problem, it's the cadences around 40 and 50 where the dangers mainly exist.

 

It was the Quando's near 70" gear, my hills, and the resulting dangerously low cadence which made me determined to revamp that bike with added gears etc.

.

Edited August 10, 200718 yr by flecc

Next time you are passing a cycle stand (where people park their cycles in Cities or at Shops), take a look at those with derailleur gears, they are all parked in TOP gear - Chain on biggest chain wheel and smallest rear sprocket.

There's a lot of tough people out there.

Peter

That is true Peter, I've also noticed than many casual cyclists cycle around the local country park at walking pace in top gear, frequently standing rather than changing down when a slope is encountered. I think this stems from a total misunderstanding of the purpose of bicycle gearing amongst many casual cyclists who have probably never heard the term cadence.

 

 

Ian's cadence indicates more stamina

No not stamina Stuart, I can keep up the fast pace when the load is light but even a slower pace with high pedal load tires me, and standing tires me very quickly. I think it's the natural speed of my legs as I walk very quickly as well, I can't run though.

I think I mixed up my terms Ian: thats broadly what I meant "stamina" in the sense of a "continuous staying power", but within an individually limited power range i.e. not necessarily a sustained high power output, rather it could be a continuous gentle or moderate one :-) as opposed to "strength" being periodic, hard pushes on the pedals requiring more power, but not continuously. Those don't seem to be quite the right words, but I think you can get my meaning?

 

I also much prefer the "spinning" technique to "pushing" and I must say a liitle thought and understanding of gearing, which as you say some seem to lack , can make a big difference to ones cycling abilities & experience :-).

Damaging effect of low cadence

 

Is there any evidence that low cadence is inherently dangerous, or is it just that, for a given power, if the cadence is halved the force at the pedals needs to be doubled. It seems likely that it is the high force that damages the knees rather than the cadence.

 

For those of us with electric bikes and in the happy position that the battery will provide all the power needed to complete the journey, then the main reason for pedalling is probably to get a bit of exercise. In that case if the cadence occasionally drops to 40 to 50 as we tackle hills mainly on battery power, surely this is not inherently damaging, provided we can resist the urge to start putting more force in at the pedals.

 

This does not include Flecc's battles with his local terrain of course, where both battery and leg power are essential.

Is there any evidence that low cadence is inherently dangerous, or is it just that, for a given power, if the cadence is halved the force at the pedals needs to be doubled

I'm certain it's the high force, not the low speed that does the damage. Any e-biker using a low cadence but letting the motor do most of the work is unlikely to injure themselves.

Yes I agree; I should have made clear that when I spoke of my cadence on the Torq, that I was referring to pedalling with at least moderate legpower involved, rather than "egg-whisk" level output .

 

I agree the main reason for pedalling is exercise, and there is a good secondary incentive for pedalling more, which is a (possible) substantially increased range with motor power: after all, on many Ezee bikes with gears for instance, range per charge at 15mph (on flat) is about 20miles no pedalling, but up to 30miles with only gentle pedalling, so 50% extra range, and on gradients similar pedalling can produce an even bigger percentage range increase .

High Power

 

Yes I can see that there are other reasons to want to pump in plenty of power at the pedals. It is more fun, it certainly should be faster, and range should improve.

 

However I'm really enjoying the simplicity of the Quando with it's single gear, and on my local routes there are few hill climbing challenges. When I'm climbing a hill I let the cadence drop but try to keep putting the same force into the pedals. My slight knee problem seems to improve with this type of cycling.

 

The same applies by the way for that other high-power activity, accelerating away from a standing start. I can remember quite a few knee-crunching starts when caught in the wrong gear in traffic situations before I bought the Quando. The Quando's single gear is impossibly high to pedal out of those situations so although I turn the pedals I now let the motor do the real work. This works beautifully and is great fun with the Quando's rapid accleration and no gears to change. I'm soon up to a speed where I can contribute a useful amount of power.

Well... it doesn't have to be lots of power, like I said even gentle pedalling, where gears allow that, can increase range by up to 50% . As physio, thats really a secondary consideration as you say; I mention it here because the greater range possible could be an incentive to encourage a gradual increase in pedalling for some, where that level of activity is appropriate to a physio plan and conducive for health .

 

What you say of the Quando reminds me of my recent "rediscovery" of starting off in 1st gear which is in effect a "medium" gear (58") on the Torq, which is necessary with its standard gearing but not so now I've reduced all the gears by around 23% (40T chainwheel in place of 52T original): it saves much gear shifting as one gets up speed, so I'll probably try it more often as it works nicely as you say . I think my 4th gear now is about the same as the 1st gear was before, and that will see me up to 15mph, top 2 gears are for speed, so for me only 3 or 4 gears need be used often - say 3rd or 4th for starts up to 6th for normal top "cruising" speed .

 

Stuart.

Edited August 10, 200718 yr by coops

Fun

 

Coops,

Yes, apart form all other considerations it needs to be fun so that the incentive is there to keep on doing it.

 

Fortunately the fun seems to persist even if the joints deteriorate a little with old age. The old guys I see on ancient lead-acid Powabykes seem to agree.

 

Pete (Sector)

Quite right Pete, there's no shortage of fun on ebikes is there?

 

Stuart.

 

Is there any evidence that low cadence is inherently dangerous, or is it just that, for a given power, if the cadence is halved the force at the pedals needs to be doubled. It seems likely that it is the high force that damages the knees rather than the cadence.

 

 

Yes, it's just that, the higher force during rotation damaging the knee, since it's the equivalent of multiplying a persons weight while walking or them carrying far too great a load while walking.

 

During rotation of the knee joint, the bursa, which is a fluid filled shock absorbing bag between the faces of the bones, rolls with the movement. If the load is excessive, it can break down or squash aside and allow bone to bone contact causing abrasion. That's stage one of arthritis in the knee, a condition which never gets better and tends to be self aggravating with further exercise.

 

Your Quando isn't a problem in most conditions since it's power and moderate motor gearing means it can climb moderate hills without help, and quite steep hills with very little help. With the improved rolling characteristics of my Q bike version I drove it on a half discharged battery all the way up my 1 in 7 (14%) today without pedalling, showing that even in my area it's mostly not a problem.

 

The cadence problem arose for me for two reasons. First that I occasionally have an exceptional hill as you've remarked, but most because I tow a large often heavily loaded trailer, and 150 kilos uphill means it does need quite a bit of help.

 

The evidence of the knee damage and it's cause is abundant and has long been a matter for discussion in cycling circles. There was a lack of good gearing ranges in earlier days. The first cyclists had no gears and performed prodigious feats at very low cadences, then the introduction of the three speed hub gear still left a far from adequate range and could ease the situation a little, but those using them were often considered wimps. Early derailleurs were only 4 speed and it took a while for larger gear ranges to arrive.

 

I believe the true damage situation and it's cause was masked for years by the much shorter lifespans of yesteryear and the many other circumstances in those harder times which could also do physical harm. It was the growth of competitive cycling post World War II combined with medical advances which eventually revealed the nature and cause of the problem, this leading to realisation that cadences which were both higher and more consistent via better gear ranges were needed. Once it dawned on the cycling world that these also improved performance and records starting tumbling, the battle was won in the sporting area. The message has never spread to the general public, in part because the realisations mentioned coincided with the marked decline of cycling in favour of car use, leaving no-one to preach to.

.

Edited August 10, 200718 yr by flecc

Possible argument in favour of low cadence

 

Yes, that all rings true Flecc.

 

Now if we take a look at tendinitis, or inflammation of a tendon, which I suspect is my problem. I know that sitting still at home watchnig the TV or sitting in a car for long journeys makes it worse. At the other end of the spectrum I know that too many turns of the pedals seem to make it worse. It seems to be best to keep the knee moving lightly and easily.

 

My experience after 1500 miles on the Quando is that I can happily do 15 to 20 miles in a day with the single high gear, turning the pedals, but not straining. Even though the cadence drops quite low on hills that still feels like good physio.

 

It is a pity however that the cranks are less than ideal length. How are you getting on with the longer cranks on your Q Bike?

Those longer cranks are fine and I don't even notice them, but of course they are only a little bit longer, limited for ground clearance reasons and my preference for higher cadences anyway. They could be a further 5 mm longer if care is taken when banking on corners not to pedal. The one time the longer cranks intruded was when a passing car cutting in suddenly forced me into a deep rut at the edge of a lane and the offside pedal bottomed on the road surface at the edge. The injured pedal surface remains in evidence.

 

As regards the tendonitis, it's inevitable that defensively some conditions will require the opposite to that of others, and the only defence there is the right bike for the job. I think you've got that since it's got the power to avoid you having to use excessive pedal pressures so protecting the knees, that in turn permitting low cadences to protect the tendon condition from worsening.

 

Your theoretically worst situation would be with a low powered e-bike in a steep hill area, when you'd be better off not e-biking.

.

Edited August 11, 200718 yr by flecc