E-bikes Great For Physio

Sector

Pedelecer
Mar 5, 2007
102
0
Leicestershire Le8
Fun

Coops,
Yes, apart form all other considerations it needs to be fun so that the incentive is there to keep on doing it.

Fortunately the fun seems to persist even if the joints deteriorate a little with old age. The old guys I see on ancient lead-acid Powabykes seem to agree.

Pete (Sector)
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,316
30,681
Is there any evidence that low cadence is inherently dangerous, or is it just that, for a given power, if the cadence is halved the force at the pedals needs to be doubled. It seems likely that it is the high force that damages the knees rather than the cadence.
Yes, it's just that, the higher force during rotation damaging the knee, since it's the equivalent of multiplying a persons weight while walking or them carrying far too great a load while walking.

During rotation of the knee joint, the bursa, which is a fluid filled shock absorbing bag between the faces of the bones, rolls with the movement. If the load is excessive, it can break down or squash aside and allow bone to bone contact causing abrasion. That's stage one of arthritis in the knee, a condition which never gets better and tends to be self aggravating with further exercise.

Your Quando isn't a problem in most conditions since it's power and moderate motor gearing means it can climb moderate hills without help, and quite steep hills with very little help. With the improved rolling characteristics of my Q bike version I drove it on a half discharged battery all the way up my 1 in 7 (14%) today without pedalling, showing that even in my area it's mostly not a problem.

The cadence problem arose for me for two reasons. First that I occasionally have an exceptional hill as you've remarked, but most because I tow a large often heavily loaded trailer, and 150 kilos uphill means it does need quite a bit of help.

The evidence of the knee damage and it's cause is abundant and has long been a matter for discussion in cycling circles. There was a lack of good gearing ranges in earlier days. The first cyclists had no gears and performed prodigious feats at very low cadences, then the introduction of the three speed hub gear still left a far from adequate range and could ease the situation a little, but those using them were often considered wimps. Early derailleurs were only 4 speed and it took a while for larger gear ranges to arrive.

I believe the true damage situation and it's cause was masked for years by the much shorter lifespans of yesteryear and the many other circumstances in those harder times which could also do physical harm. It was the growth of competitive cycling post World War II combined with medical advances which eventually revealed the nature and cause of the problem, this leading to realisation that cadences which were both higher and more consistent via better gear ranges were needed. Once it dawned on the cycling world that these also improved performance and records starting tumbling, the battle was won in the sporting area. The message has never spread to the general public, in part because the realisations mentioned coincided with the marked decline of cycling in favour of car use, leaving no-one to preach to.
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Sector

Pedelecer
Mar 5, 2007
102
0
Leicestershire Le8
Possible argument in favour of low cadence

Yes, that all rings true Flecc.

Now if we take a look at tendinitis, or inflammation of a tendon, which I suspect is my problem. I know that sitting still at home watchnig the TV or sitting in a car for long journeys makes it worse. At the other end of the spectrum I know that too many turns of the pedals seem to make it worse. It seems to be best to keep the knee moving lightly and easily.

My experience after 1500 miles on the Quando is that I can happily do 15 to 20 miles in a day with the single high gear, turning the pedals, but not straining. Even though the cadence drops quite low on hills that still feels like good physio.

It is a pity however that the cranks are less than ideal length. How are you getting on with the longer cranks on your Q Bike?
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,316
30,681
Those longer cranks are fine and I don't even notice them, but of course they are only a little bit longer, limited for ground clearance reasons and my preference for higher cadences anyway. They could be a further 5 mm longer if care is taken when banking on corners not to pedal. The one time the longer cranks intruded was when a passing car cutting in suddenly forced me into a deep rut at the edge of a lane and the offside pedal bottomed on the road surface at the edge. The injured pedal surface remains in evidence.

As regards the tendonitis, it's inevitable that defensively some conditions will require the opposite to that of others, and the only defence there is the right bike for the job. I think you've got that since it's got the power to avoid you having to use excessive pedal pressures so protecting the knees, that in turn permitting low cadences to protect the tendon condition from worsening.

Your theoretically worst situation would be with a low powered e-bike in a steep hill area, when you'd be better off not e-biking.
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coops

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 18, 2007
1,225
1
Manchester U.K.
This is a very illuminating topic and I'm surprised the subject of ebikes for physio hasn't really cropped up before as far as I recall :).

I think it also serves to highlight how bike choice is even more critical for this purpose in many cases, especially for taking the strain on steep hills where they can't be avoided, or the fun of climbing them almost effortlessly on a bike is wanted :D.

Stuart.
 
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hobo1

Pedelecer
Mar 31, 2007
70
0
Bingley, West Yorkshire.
I think it also serves to highlight how bike choice is even more critical for this purpose in many cases, especially for taking the strain on steep hills where they can't be avoided, or the fun of climbing them almost effortlessly on a bike is wanted . (said by Stuart above).

Absolutely Stuart, thats why the right e-bike for me was so important. If it hadn't been for my discovering e-bikes & this forum I would have had to forgo most of this summers riding: then gingerly get back into training myself up to fitness again. Now I am able to get all the physio required and improve my condition while still riding and enjoying the lovely countryside that surrounds me.

Cheers, David.
 
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Ian

Esteemed Pedelecer
Apr 1, 2007
1,333
0
Leicester LE4, UK.
There used to be an article on the 50cycles website about an athlete with a serious knee injury using a Torq to successfully complete the Royal British Legions annual London to Paris poppy tour. The rider did comment in the article that during training for the event his physiotherapist regarded the electric bicycle as an excellent aid to recovery.
 

coops

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 18, 2007
1,225
1
Manchester U.K.
hobo1 said:
Now I am able to get all the physio required and improve my condition while still riding and enjoying the lovely countryside that surrounds me.
:D Whereas my "physio"/exercise involves using the bike to escape the city, in order to enjoy the surrounding countryside! :D

Ian, yes I read that with interest before I bought a Torq: as I recall he was an able cyclist & he used at least two different Ezee bikes during his training preparation for the ride, including a Sprint, but very much fell for the Torq which he wanted to keep after his trip :D. He also carried two spare batteries due to the distances involved & motor assist required.

The Torq's design may make it more a "bike rider's" physio ebike then?! I suppose which bike works best depends very much on the injury too :).

Another relevant article I recall from 50Cycles site, and elsewhere too I think, was on the likely health benefits of cardiovascular exercise on ebikes, which maintain a more constant heartrate for a longer time so improving the consistency & quality of the workout.

Stuart.
 
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ITSPETEINIT

Esteemed Pedelecer
Dec 11, 2006
492
0
Mere, Wilts
Physio Bike

I have always believed that if I could find a bike to 'get me home' it would be beneficial to my health.
The last ride I took on a 'normal' bike was 20 miles in Dorset hinterland around Plush and Hazlebury Bryan. The first 10 were bad enough: the next ten, after lunch were a nightmare. It was a Marin Bear Valley that I was going to motorise but sold it instead. £100 - can you believe it!
I suffer from Atrial Fibrillation and the oxygen supply to my muscles is less than it should be. But while I get puffed mowing the lawn, lifting and walking I don't get anything of that sort riding the e-bike and putting in about 60 - 80 rpm.
I conquered my nemesis again today (Shaftesbury A30 - 2 km 1 in 15 to 1 in 9).
I took it calmly, a nice measured cadence in gear 3 on the Sprint and ......no it did not go up like the wind........it climbed steadily and within my minimal capabilities. A steady 10 mph. It gave me a great psychological lift.
The Torq had not got a clue on that hill, even with a modified bottom gear of 39 inches. As Flecc has often testified, the Torq gives very little below 12 mph which is impossible for me with the standard bottom gear provided - 60 inches, and very hard work with a 39 inch gear. Funny, the Sprint's 3rd gear is 57 inches so it's down to the gearing in the motor.
Peter
 

coops

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 18, 2007
1,225
1
Manchester U.K.
Absolutely agree with you on the Torq, Peter: Flecc's effective 39.6V modified NiMH hill-climb battery for the T-bike, which boosts the power for hills, helps compensate for the high motor gearing which is still there, and rider gearing still needs to be in sync with that when pedalling with motor assist.

I'm very happy to hear you're conquering your nemesis hill now Peter, and at a fair speed too! It must be a big morale boost, and an illustration of how well some ebikes can climb steep slopes :).

Stuart.
 
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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,316
30,681
Absolutely right Peter, as I've so often highlighted, it's the Torq's overgeared motor that's as much of a problem as the rider gearing when there are hill climb difficulties. The same motor normally geared in the Quando climbs 1 in 8 with a 75 kilo rider without any rider help.
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frank9755

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 19, 2007
1,228
2
London
I read this thread over the weekend and found it interesting. I've cycled fairly regularly since childhood but always as a form of transport, not as a sport, so I have never been coached in how to ride a bike, at least since the age of 5!

The style I've developed involves a fairly moderate cadence, typically ranging from 50-65. I have had the odd knee twinge but no major problems and want to keep it that way!

Today as I rode in to work I made a conscious effort to keep to a higher cadence than I normally would. I was able to keep in the range 75-90, typically having the bike in one or even two gears lower than I normally would. My legs did start to feel tired from the unaccustomed movement, but, although it felt strange, I was able to keep it up. To my surprise I was actually going at least as fast, getting to work in 2 minutes less than the last time I timed myself. I did feel like I'd been doing a bit more work than normal, but my legs didn't have the heavy, tired feel that I get if I've tried to go really fast at lower cadences.

I'll try it again going home tonight!

Frank
 
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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,316
30,681
That's good to hear Frank. You'll be surprised at how much cycling power you'll gain once you train your legs to higher cadences, and it's an insurance against future joint trouble as well.
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frank9755

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 19, 2007
1,228
2
London
I'm still working at this. The biggest benefit I notice is when I hit a smallish hill. I've always tried my best to use momentum to get up hills, but I've been doing it in too high a gear, often getting the gear 'crunch' when having to change down when speed has dropped due to the steepness of the hill, revs are right down hence pedal force way too high. At a higher cadence this works much better. I can still keep up momentum but have much more time to change down when needed. The highlight on the way home last night was slipping into a lower gear just at the start of a little hill and not even feeling the hill as my cadence stayed the same but with more power and less speed.

In the past people have occasionally advised me to change down earlier on hills, but it was the wrong advice because just changing down earlier without higher cadence would mean losing momentum, so I didn't do it!

Frank
 

coops

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 18, 2007
1,225
1
Manchester U.K.
Frank9755 said:
...slipping into a lower gear just at the start of a little hill and not even feeling the hill as my cadence stayed the same but with more power and less speed.
Yes, thats exactly what I do Frank :) and I find it works well, though timing exactly when to change down takes practice & skill, some anticipation needed too: cycling "smart" is another big advantage over other motor vehicles in my view - slowing before red lights/hazards to maintain momentum & avoid coming to a halt if possible etc. which drivers almost universally don't do! Bikes are already more manoeuvrable than cars and adding a motor makes them even more versatile :).

Keep on trying it out, you'll soon see the benefits!

Stuart.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,316
30,681
The highlight on the way home last night was slipping into a lower gear just at the start of a little hill and not even feeling the hill as my cadence stayed the same but with more power and less speed.

Frank
That's it exactly Frank, the way in which a higher cadence maintained at a stable rate by use of the gears makes the more difficult elements of cycling much easier. Muscles work best when frequently lightly loaded at a fixed rhythm, and worst when heavily and irregularly loaded, since the heart and lungs can't settle to a known demand with the latter.

It explains why sport cyclists have so many gears on their bikes, 28 or more at times. We don't need anything like that many though, since the motor compensates for gear change gaps to a fair extent by helping us to the best cadence point.
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ITSPETEINIT

Esteemed Pedelecer
Dec 11, 2006
492
0
Mere, Wilts
Number of Gears for an Electric Bike

Quote by Flecc:
It explains why sport cyclists have so many gears on their bikes, 28 or more at times. We don't need anything like that many though, since the motor compensates for gear change gaps to a fair extent by helping us to the best cadence point.


That's true: the Motor irons out the 7 jumps between (say) 120 and 40 inches.
But actually (I'm splitting hairs, I know), sport cyclists only appear to have 21 (3 x 7), 24 (3 x 8) or in extreme misguided cases 27 (3 x 9). There are many duplications or near duplications. Their choice is really down to which chain wheel they are 'on'.
There was a gear system published called (I think it was "Alpine Gearing" - because of its association with climbing really steep and varied gradients) where the bottom gear was 21 inches (27" x 26/34) and top was 96 (27" x 46/13) and to maintain the progression of least jump/fall when one changed up on the chain wheel one changed down on the rear sprocket. The increase in gearing on the chain wheel was 38% and 28% and the reduction on the chosen sprocket was 15% - 13%.
As I recall (without resorting to Sheldon brown) there were about 7 duplications or near duplications reducing the number of effective gears to 14 (7 speed cassette) or 21 (8 speed cassette) - perhaps the 8 speed cassette shifter had not been invented at that time.
It was such a nightmare that it was recommended that the rider keep a table of gear inches in each combination on his handlebars (I kid you not).
Imagine! Riding up the Kirkstone Pass, with 30 lbs plus baggage, on a yesteryear summer's day, dripping with perspiration, in deep oxygen debt trying to figure out if there is an easier gear available.
My technique was the simplest. When I saw the hill coming, at the point where it reared up, I'd smack the gear lever(s) in bottom: (Front Changer first) then the rear sprockets in quick succession, and 'cruise' up at 5 mph.
Peter
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,316
30,681
Quite true Peter, but there's another reason for the larger number of gears, and they aren't always as misguided as first seems apparent. It's the chainline, since although there are duplications, the duplication can have a very much straighter chainline than the existing option for that gear.

Some competition/sports riders take great pride in their ability to keep a straight chain run, not an easy thing to do, and demanding an intimate knowledge of all the options.

That said, chainline inefficiency isn't a big factor in the greater scheme of things, but there'll always be the purists who want the last scrap of gain.
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