E-Bike suitable for an MS sufferer - eZee Sprint?

[Phil the drill]

Hi folks

I good friend of mine was diagnosed with MS several years ago. Like most people afflicted with this disorder he has good and bad periods. He can't do much when the disease is very active, but in states of remission he's not too bad. One side effect of all this is that fitness is very difficult to maintain, due to the extended periods of relative inactivity. This means that when he is relatively well, he is too unfit to cope with a bike on anything other than very easy terrain and for very short periods.
Yesterday, when visiting me, he saw the Saracen Diva conversion I recently finished for my wife and asked if he could give it a try. He really enjoyed it and said that it was a revelation. He is now determined to buy himself an ebike so that he can at least maintain some level of fitness when well enough. Unfortunately he can't really use the Saracen as it's way too small for him (my wife is 5' 1"", and the bike is pefect for her, but he is 6' 2"!).
Anyhow, I'm rambling a little here, I've been trying to point him in the right direction for 'best bets' for an ebike he can use. It must be:
1) Big enough to fit him
2) Has to be a step through, he'd have difficulty lifting his leg over a cross bar.
3) Powerful enough to cope with his weight (he's not vast, but no bean pole either!).
4) It's got to get up some fairly steep gradients.
5) I think, given the health issues, that a hub motor would be best for him, rather than a pure pedelec as it will give him the opportunity for a rest if required.

Looking at the list above the eZee sprint seems to jump off the page at me (very powerful motor, step through design), possibly the new Powabyke step through (bit worried about the battery's ability to cope), or the Wisper 705 (less powerful motor).
Any other suggestions or comments would be very welcome, especially from anyone with experience of these particular models (or other good alternatives).

Many thanks, Phil

PS Just thought about the eZee Quando - sounds like that may fit the bill. Opinions anyone?

 

[flecc]

PS Just thought about the eZee Quando - sounds like that may fit the bill.

The Quando choice is very dependent on the rider weight and exact specification of the steepest hill to be climbed, since it has no rider gears.

For example, the Quando will carry my 70 kilos up 12% (1 in 8) on motor power alone and can just about do a standing start on that without pedalling, or climb 14% (1 in 7) with light pedal assistance.

As the rider gets heavier the climb ability declines, but if you can give me the steepest hill and the rider's weight I can give a positive answer.

The Sprint motor is less powerful than the Quando motor and loses the small wheel hill climbing advantage, but the gears easily compensate for that as long as the rider has some reasonable ability.

The e-bike your friend needs isn't on the UK market unfortunately, as it's a throttle controlled non-pedelec drive-through-the-gears e-bike, though one can be made using a Cyclone Motor, preferably a 360 or 500 Watt one.
.

 

[Phil the drill]

The Quando choice is very dependent on the rider weight and exact specification of the steepest hill to be climbed, since it has no rider gears.

For example, the Quando will carry my 70 kilos up 12% (1 in 8) on motor power alone and can just about do a standing start on that without pedalling, or climb 14% (1 in 7) with light pedal assistance.

As the rider gets heavier the climb ability declines, but if you can give me the steepest hill and the rider's weight I can give a positive answer.

The Sprint motor is less powerful than the Quando motor and loses the small wheel hill climbing advantage, but the gears easily compensate for that as long as the rider has some reasonable ability.

The e-bike your friend needs isn't on the UK market unfortunately, as it's a throttle controlled non-pedelec drive-through-the-gears e-bike, though one can be made using a Cyclone Motor, preferably a 360 or 500 Watt one.
.

Hi Flecc

Thanks for the info. My friend is approx 15.5st. The local hills he is likely to encounter close by average around 1:8 and are 'rolling' up and down a lot. The gradients are rarely steady and tend to vary considerably; often between 1:6 or greater for very short spells and 1:8 to 1:10 for much longer periods. I don't think that at the start he is likely to go very far, probably only 4 to 6 miles or so, and I expect he will avoid most gradients over 1:8, other than for very short distances. He is OK at the present with moderate pedal pressure and a low cadence, I would guess up to about 50 ish. He can cope with the increased pressure and low cadence rather better than high cadences.
I will look into the Cyclone motor, but I understand that the bike choice with this system is very limited and weather proofing can be problem (we live in the home of the sou'westerly Atlantic rain / gale!) - so this may be a matter of concern.

Cheers, Phil

 

[siggah5]

The drill

Hi Phil

At your friends heght,could they not just slip onto 905se sport?
Live for today ! and awe that.
I just think Gofor it ! What the hell!

hope ive not offended best regards

Andy

 

[Phil the drill]

Hi Phil

At your friends heght,could they not just slip onto 905se sport?
Live for today ! and awe that.
I just think Gofor it ! What the hell!

hope ive not offended best regards

Andy

No offence at all.

I've got a Wisper 905se sport myself and I love it, but I'm a lot fitter rider than my friend Andrew. I don't reckon the Wisper really has quite enough clout on the hills for him. The Wisper is fast on the flat and up moderate inclines, but at the expense of carrying loads up steep hills, where you need to work at it rather more to get up them. Fine for me, but I reckon he'll struggle. He needs that bit more 'grunt'.

Cheers, Phil

 

[flecc]

His weight is a problem Phil, where the Quando is concerned

On a 1 in 8, he'll need to add about 180 to 200 Watts himself when climbing at about 8.5 mph, the lowest optimum climb speed, and that's a fair amount of effort. For comparison, a fully fit male rider in his 20s to 40s is considered capable of 200 watts continuous for long stretches.

As he doesn't mind very slow cadences, 7 mph is possible on 1 in 8 with him adding about 140 watts.

Steeper hills like 1 in 6 may not be on, a fairly big effort for me even a couple of years ago at a fairly high degree of fitness since the 70" single gear is too high for really low climb speeds, plus the hub motor runs low on power at very low speeds below 6 mph. He might just manage if the 1 in 6 is very short.

That's as near as I can get to being definitive since personal variations can't be precisely judged,

One other option, though it's expensive, is the Heinzmann high torque version, losing a little speed in favour of good hill climbing, and of course the Powabyke X is in the running if he can cope with the small battery or can have two of them.

The Cyclone is definitely not suitable for damp conditions unless waterproofed, but Citrus in this forum has waterproofed his second one and is happy with it at present. You can read more about that in this thread.
.

 

[siggah5]

The Wisper

Hi Phil

Been thinking about that (ive got a gammy leg).Do you think you could run a front hub as well(loosing distance)on the same 36 14ah battery?

 

[Mussels]

Hi Phil

Been thinking about that (ive got a gammy leg).Do you think you could run a front hub as well(loosing distance)on the same 36 14ah battery?

Wisper have created just what you describe for non UK use so it can be done.

 

[siggah5]

The 906

Hi Muscles

Would that be the 906 im reading about? How much do you think they will cost? I would love one

Best regards Andy

 

[nigel]

Hi phil
what about the blackstar2 it has 6 gears a nice low step through frame i would think it would be a good hill climber. Only problem could be bike size for your friend at 6ft 2in.
good luck Nigel.

 

[frank9755]

Phil, I'm assuming your friend is not looking for high speed on the flat. Given the terrain, there probably isn't that much flat anyway, and he can get all the speed he can handle on the downhills without the motor needing to contribute.

Therefore one option would be to have a highly over-geared hub motor by taking one designed for a large wheel bike and putting it a small wheel - the opposite of the Ezee Torq. That would give plenty of hill climbing ability at the expense of unwanted speed on the flat.

For example, If your friend got a low speed, high torque Tongxin, the 160 rpm, which is designed to give 15mph in a 26 inch wheel, and had it put in a small wheel, say 20", he would have something that would only give 11.5mph top speed, but proportionately greater climbing power. In an even smaller Brompton wheel (16 or 18" - can't remember) the gearing would be greater. Given that the Tongxin is regarded as a good hill climber when normally geared, I think that could give a good solution - as long as speed on the flat is not an issue.

Frank

 

[flecc]

Would that be the 906 im reading about? How much do you think they will cost? I would love one

No Andy, it's not the 906 which has just one front hub motor.

Do you think you could run a front hub as well(loosing distance)on the same 36 14ah battery?

Two hub motors couldn't be run at the same time from the one 14Ah battery as they'd cause cutting out due to excessive current draw.

A different solution is to have a Wisper 905se with a front hub motor added which had lower internal gearing on the lines Frank described. Then at steep hills the battery could be switched to the front hub hill climbing motor.

That also has the advantage of being legal since the two motors couldn't be run together.
.

 

[flecc]

In an even smaller Brompton wheel (16 or 18" - can't remember) the gearing would be greater. Given that the Tongxin is regarded as a good hill climber when normally geared, I think that could give a good solution - as long as speed on the flat is not an issue.

Frank

16" wheel giving 13/14 mph depending on battery charge. It still only
just equals the Quando according to A to B's Nano Brompton opinions though, so would still need the inputs I described above.

A more powerful option is the Heinzmann high torque motor version intended for hill climbing that's geared for 11.5 mph in a 26" wheel.
.

 

[MonVal Electra]

Quote from Phil the Drill

Unfortunately he can't really use the Saracen as it's way too small for him (my wife is 5' 1"", and the bike is pefect for her, but he is 6' 2"!).
Anyhow, I'm rambling a little here, I've been trying to point him in the right direction for 'best bets' for an ebike he can use. It must be:
1) Big enough to fit him
2) Has to be a step through, he'd have difficulty lifting his leg over a cross bar.
3) Powerful enough to cope with his weight (he's not vast, but no bean pole either!).
4) It's got to get up some fairly steep gradients.
5) I think, given the health issues, that a hub motor would be best for him, rather than a pure pedelec as it will give him the opportunity for a rest if required.

Hello Phil

Regarding your friends' disability and wish to continue cycling - There is a 'Not-for-Profit' organisation that I am a memeber of, called Cyclemagic who specialise in modifying bicycles for the disabled precisely for this very reason, check them out here:

Cyclemagic.org.uk

Please see the picture attached below, it is an example of the sort of things that they do. The bike in the foreground is a modification made for a guy who has a very bad back and not great leg power. He also lives in a particuarly very hilly part of Leicester.
He was determined to keep cycling so came to Cyclemagic to see what could be done for him. Hence the high handlebars, 50Nm torque motor and Sram P7 hub gear with a 21t sprocket.

At Cyclemagic, we prefer to use the Heinzmann kits for the very reason that Flecc mentioned - High torque, they are also a quality build and very reliable, which when dealing with the disabled is of a very high priority.

Cyclemagic are also agents for the Azor range of bikes, for those of you who do not know, they are dutch style bikes with nice quality frames. The reason that I mention this is because, I believe that an Azor Omar or boundless which both have a low 'step thru', with the above heinzmann conversion may be just the ticket for your friend. Also, dutch style bikes from our experience anyway, always seem to sell well - which would mean that if his condition got worse, he would be able to recover a large part of his initial outlay because of the quality bike and quality kit, especially if sold seperately.

Hope this helps

Andrew.

 

[frank9755]

16" wheel giving 13/14 mph depending on battery charge

I think your calculation is the wrong way round - a motor geared for 11.5mph in a 20 inch will be slower in a 16 - I make it 9.2mph, and would have correspondingly higher torque (my suggestion would be quite different from the Nano Brompton, which was not undergeared).

I do agree that a high torque Heinzmann would perhaps be a more obvious choice, although I would be tempted to try the Tongxin for three reasons:
- weight
- price
- low rolling resistance

 

[flecc]

I think your calculation is the wrong way round - a motor geared for 11.5mph in a 20 inch will be slower in a 16 - I make it 9.2mph, and would have correspondingly higher torque (my suggestion would be quite different from the Nano Brompton, which was not undergeared).

Misunderstanding Frank, I was actually quoting the Nano-Brompton motor leading on from your wheel size query and not your suggested variant, which I should have made clear of course. That's why I quoted A to B's reported speeds on that bike, I didn't calculate them.

I do agree that a high torque Heinzmann would perhaps be a more obvious choice, although I would be tempted to try the Tongxin for three reasons:
- weight
- price
- low rolling resistance

I agree, the Tongxin is much the nicer motor and very much cheaper, but I added the Heinzmann suggestion since it has much more power in the first instance so would do the job without question in it's high torque low geared form.

Actually I inwardly groan every time I see queries about production e-bikes for disability of any sort, since they are inherently unsuitable. The legal restrictions were designed to add some assist power for regular cyclists and aren't suited for moped style unassisted use which is often required at least part of the time for disabilities. Usually when I say this someone vigorously disagrees, but I see it as a simple matter of fact and A to B agrees.
.

 

[Mussels]

Two hub motors couldn't be run at the same time from the one 14Ah battery as they'd cause cutting out due to excessive current draw.

A different solution is to have a Wisper 905se with a front hub motor added which had lower internal gearing on the lines Frank described. Then at steep hills the battery could be switched to the front hub hill climbing motor.

That also has the advantage of being legal since the two motors couldn't be run together.
.

According to Wisper both motors in ther 905xs can run at the same time from 1 battery.
http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/electric-bicycles/3198-i-had-quick-go-wisper-905se-today-3.html#post41470

We have found that our 36v 14a lithium polymer does the trick already without the need for more than one battery although as Wai Wan says we could easily ad another battery in parallel giving us a 1032ah model.

 

[flecc]

Thanks for the factual correction Mussels, I had seen the original statement but I have some reservations.

1) Were the two motors actually running on full power or were they current limited by the battery unable to maintain about 35 to 40 amps continuous discharge rate?

2) A new lithium battery can perform wonders initially, but after the first few months I'd have the same doubts it could run both motors at full power under load, so cutting out could start occurring.

3) I wonder just how long the battery would last with such discharge rates. They haven't been too clever in that respect with just one motor.

Given everything we know about lithium so far, I won't be recommending anyone running two motors on one battery until it's proven over time.
.

 

[Phil the drill]

Hi Guys and thanks for all the info, lots to mull over and follow up, which I will do as soon as I get chance. I'll let you know in due course what he ends up going for, and of course how he gets on with it!

I must say that my inclination at present would be to look at the Powabyke step through. Reasons:-
The motor is the same as the old one, as is the controller (according to Frank), which in conjuction with the bike's much lower weight should give it very good hill climbing ability (the weight is similar to my Saracen conversion, which gave him the original 'I can do this' moment!). If only they could have fitted a bigger battery, but of course two of them is an option and possibly they could be fitted and wired (with diodes) in parallel, which may be the best (and possibly cheapest) compromise....
Still, much to consider here.

Many thanks everyone,
Phil

 

[fishingpaul]

If the weight of the bike is not too much of an issue,how about a folding powabyke,i think these are 20in wheels with the standard powabike motor,which should give good hillclimbing,and you could pick one up pretty cheap,it may be better to spend around £250 on something like this, than spending upwards of £1000 and then finding it unsuitable.