E-bike questions

[TheBag]

Apologies for the long first post but I have spent most of yesterday trying to understand the laws around riding an eBike with a twist and go throttle that does not require peddling to activate.

I would very much appreciate confirmation of the following findings and answers to a few questions below.

Findings:
F1 - eBikes manufactured prior to Jan 1st 2016 retain "grandfather rights" with regard to twist and go throttles. This means that they can provide power without the need for peddling up to 15.5mph (what I will refer to as "full twist and go" henceforth).

F2 - Any full twist and go bikes which were manufactured after Jan 1st 2016 will require type approval by the manufacturer. (Not sure how this changes the legality of riding a full twist and go throttle on the road as the gov.uk guidance seems to say it has to be pedalled to be active)

F3 - A statement from the DfT indicated that type approval requirements only apply to new vehicles and not converted ones which I understand to mean that if you had a standard pedal bicycle which had already been ridden on the road, it could be converted to full twist and go without having to apply for type approval.

Questions:
Q1a - If I convert a regular pedal bicycle to full twist and go, is it legal to be ridden on the road (making full use of the throttle)?

Q1b - Is there a requirement for the age of either the bike or conversion parts for this to be legal? I.e. if the motor or bicycle was manufactured prior to 2016, does that make it legal?

Q2 - If I purchased a manufactured eBike which had the full twist and go throttle disabled, could I lawfully enable it and could I then lawfully ride it on the road?

Q3 - If when using a full twist and go throttle, I were involved in an accident, would this incur any additional liability to me? (I think much of this question is based on the legality of riding the bike in the first place).

Q4 - I understand that manufacturers need to display some details of the bikes compliance with EU regulations/laws somewhere readily visible on the frame. Does this requirement also apply to converted bikes?

I think the most important question for me is whether or not I can legally ride a full twist and go throttled bike on the road and that if I got into an accident, I wouldn't automatically be liable. I've heard of a few manufacturers who have gotten type approval for some of their e-bikes now but the whole thing just really confuses me.

I appreciate the number of questions I've asked and that some may not be straightforward to answer and so if there is anything I can do to help or if you require any clarification, please let me know.

Thank you for any help you can provide.

 

[vfr400]

Many people have full-range throttles. Nobody cares.

If you get a KT controller, you can switch between legal 4 mph throttle and full range (for private land riding) with a few presses of the buttons on the LCD, so if you were unfortunate enough to have an accident on the private land, you could switch it back before anybody asked any awkward questions.

 

[TheBag]

Many people have full-range throttles. Nobody cares.

If you get a KT controller, you can switch between legal 4 mph throttle and full range (for private land riding) with a few presses of the buttons on the LCD, so if you were unfortunate enough to have an accident on the private land, you could switch it back before anyboxy asked any awkward questions.

The concerns I have are around legality. If I can avoid breaking the law and spend a bit more on a bike, I will.

I accept that the risk of getting into trouble may be very low but if I can avoid it altogether, it just makes more sense.

 

[TheBag]

So I believe thanks to Flecc and David from Wisper, that I now have a couple of answers to these questions (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong).

F2 - Type approval for this type of bike would essentially make it a motorbike under the law and would therefore subject it to registration, licensing and insurance requirements.

The 6th April 2015 amendments to the 1983 EAPC regulations made fully acting throttles on pedelecs illegal to use unless the machine was type approved to L1e-A. The DfT have essentially allowed a workaround to this for the UK which is to apply for "Single Vehicle Approval" (SVA) for an individual bike which will satisfy this requirement and allow a full twist and go throttle to be road legal.

F3/Q1a/Q2 - So even though type approval only applies to the manufacturer as stated by the DfT, that does not mean it is legal to ride a converted bike on the road. All converted bikes will be subject to the same SVA requirements if they have a full twist and go throttle.

Q3 - I can assume based on this that if you have an non single vehicle approved bike which utilised a full twist and go throttle, you would automatically take liability in the event of an accident. This would be similar to getting into a car over the alcohol limit and having someone else who was completely at fault crash into you. As you were over the limit, you often de facto accept liability for the accident - with the exception of things like someone crashing into the back of you while your drunk (you may still lose your license, but the other parties insurance will have to pay out as the fault of the accident is theirs).

 

[flecc]

F2 - Any full twist and go bikes which were manufactured after Jan 1st 2016 will require type approval by the manufacturer. (Not sure how this changes the legality of riding a full twist and go throttle on the road as the gov.uk guidance seems to say it has to be pedalled to be active)

Once an SVA is gained there will be no need to pedal to get motor power. Power only when pedalling is the normal pedelec condition.

F3 - A statement from the DfT indicated that type approval requirements only apply to new vehicles and not converted ones which I understand to mean that if you had a standard pedal bicycle which had already been ridden on the road, it could be converted to full twist and go without having to apply for type approval.

No, this is a misunderstanding. Though it's true type approval only applies for manufacturers, the separate regulations on pedelec usage bar having a fully acting throttle.

Q1a - If I convert a regular pedal bicycle to full twist and go, is it legal to be ridden on the road (making full use of the throttle)?

Only with SVA.

Q1b - Is there a requirement for the age of either the bike or conversion parts for this to be legal? I.e. if the motor or bicycle was manufactured prior to 2016, does that make it legal?

No. If the machine was created after 31st December 2015, it would not be legal without SVA.

Q2 - If I purchased a manufactured eBike which had the full twist and go throttle disabled, could I lawfully enable it and could I then lawfully ride it on the road?

If it had been legal when originally sold, yes you can re-enable it.

Q3 - If when using a full twist and go throttle, I were involved in an accident, would this incur any additional liability to me? (I think much of this question is based on the legality of riding the bike in the first place).

If the bike was illegal, i.e. a motor vehicle, you could be liable to motor vehicle penalties in respect of the accident. These are much harsher than cycling ones.

Q4 - I understand that manufacturers need to display some details of the bikes compliance with EU regulations/laws somewhere readily visible on the frame. Does this requirement also apply to converted bikes?

There has been no clarification on this point, but since a label is easy to create and apply, why not do so? It save questions being raised.

I think the most important question for me is whether or not I can legally ride a full twist and go throttled bike on the road and that if I got into an accident, I wouldn't automatically be liable. I've heard of a few manufacturers who have gotten type approval for some of their e-bikes now but the whole thing just really confuses me.

If you have an SVA'd e-bike, there would be no automatic liability. It would just come down to how you were riding. If you had an illegal unapproved machine that could be used against you to show irresponsibility and therefore liability.
.

 

[flecc]

So I believe thanks to Flecc and David from Wisper, that I now have a couple of answers to these questions (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong).

F2 - Type approval for this type of bike would essentially make it a motorbike under the law and would therefore subject it to registration, licensing and insurance requirements.

The 6th April 2015 amendments to the 1983 EAPC regulations made fully acting throttles on pedelecs illegal to use unless the machine was type approved to L1e-A. The DfT have essentially allowed a workaround to this for the UK which is to apply for "Single Vehicle Approval" (SVA) for an individual bike which will satisfy this requirement and allow a full twist and go throttle to be road legal.

F3/Q1a/Q2 - So even though type approval only applies to the manufacturer as stated by the DfT, that does not mean it is legal to ride a converted bike on the road. All converted bikes will be subject to the same SVA requirements if they have a full twist and go throttle.

Q3 - I can assume based on this that if you have an non single vehicle approved bike which utilised a full twist and go throttle, you would automatically take liability in the event of an accident. This would be similar to getting into a car over the alcohol limit and having someone else who was completely at fault crash into you. As you were over the limit, you often de facto accept liability for the accident - with the exception of things like someone crashing into the back of you while your drunk (you may still lose your license, but the other parties insurance will have to pay out as the fault of the accident is theirs).

While you were posting this I answered your questions just above.
.

 

[Laser Man]

There has been no clarification on this point, but since a label is easy to create and apply, why not do so? It save questions being raised..

That's exactly what I thought, so I made a label.

Poor photo, but it is glossy black plastic engraved to reveal metallic silver writing.

 

[TheBag]

No. If the machine was created after 31st December 2015, it would not be legal without SVA.

I'm sorry to be a little pedantic over details but I just wanted to clarify that by "the machine was created", do you mean the motor fitted to the original bike? I.e. it doesn't matter the age of the bike or the motor, it is the date at which the two we're put together?

 

[vfr400]

I'm sorry to be a little pedantic over details but I just wanted to clarify that by "the machine was created", do you mean the motor fitted to the original bike? I.e. it doesn't matter the age of the bike or the motor, it is the date at which the two we're put together?

How does anybody know when the conversion was done if you don't tell them?

 

[TheBag]

How does anybody know when the conversion was done if you don't tell them?

Well if the motor or the bike were newer than 2016, you could certainly assert that they weren't put together before then.

 

[Woosh]

Well if the motor or the bike were newer than 2016, you could certainly assert that they weren't put together before then.

how about you have had a conversion before 2016 which had a throttle and you moved that throttle to a post 2016 conversion?

 

[Benjahmin]

Also, what if the conversion was done 2015 and you have since replaced the motor for a new one, but the rest of the kit is the same. What constitutes the kit?
I have a conversion kit bought and fitted in Nov. 14. Have since (2016) had to replace the motor casing (new bearing), so is my kit now illegal?
Cor blimey guvnor, it's a mess and no mistake!

 

[TheBag]

how about you have had a conversion before 2016 which had a throttle and you moved that throttle to a post 2016 conversion?

That's the kind of thing I'm trying to establish.

There is an old thought experiment in philosophy called the ship of Theseus.

The gist is that the Greek mythical hero Theseus sailed a ship into battle and after victory, his ship is left in the harbour. As time goes by, some of the wood begins to rot and so those panels are replaced. Decades go by and even more wood goes bad and needs replacing. Before long, none of the original components used to build the ship are a part of the ship anymore. Do we still consider it to be the same ship?

Similarly if you had a pre 2016 ebike which had a full twist and go throttle and slowly replaced all the parts until none of them were a part of the original bike, was the bike still created prior to 2016?

If the time that the components were put together is the time "the machine was created" as Flecc put it, then what you suggested would now be a new bike subject to SVA before the throttle could be used without pedalling.

I most laws there would be something really ambiguous that would say something like "if any major or meaningful parts are replaced, the bike would be considered to have been manufactured at the time of replacement", but I have seen no such text as of yet (that doesn't mean it doesn't exist).

 

[Phil Dryden]

That's the kind of thing I'm trying to establish.

There is an old thought experiment in philosophy called the ship of Theseus.

The gist is that the Greek mythical hero Theseus sailed a ship into battle and after victory, his ship is left in the harbour. As time goes by, some of the wood begins to rot and so those panels are replaced. Decades go by and even more wood goes bad and needs replacing. Before long, none of the original components used to build the ship are a part of the ship anymore. Do we still consider it to be the same ship?

Similarly if you had a pre 2016 ebike which had a full twist and go throttle and slowly replaced all the parts until none of them were a part of the original bike, was the bike still created prior to 2016?

If the time that the components were put together is the time "the machine was created" as Flecc put it, then what you suggested would now be a new bike subject to SVA before the throttle could be used without pedalling.

I most laws there would be something really ambiguous that would say something like "if any major or meaningful parts are replaced, the bike would be considered to have been manufactured at the time of replacement", but I have seen no such text as of yet (that doesn't mean it doesn't exist).

The modern version of Theseus ship would be Trigger's broom, I suppose. 5 new shanks, 3 new heads, is it the same broom?

 

[Benjahmin]

I have the original receipt for both my bike (Carrera) and my conversion kit. Therefore my bike was 'created, on those dates, no matter what I change. As far as I know there is no other way of dating a bike and certainly no way of dating the kit, other than interrogating the manufacturers in regard of frame numbers or serial numbers. I can't see that happening.

 

[vfr400]

I keep telling you. Nobody cares, the police are too busy hunting people on Twitter that call a woman a man because she/he/it has a penis and people that train their dogs to do nazi salutes. they're not even investigating burglaries anymore, so it'll be a long time before they ever get onto throttles.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/942637/burglary-police-investigate-London-UK

 

[RossG]

"The gist is that the Greek mythical hero Theseus sailed a ship into battle and after victory, his ship is left in the harbour. As time goes by, some of the wood begins to rot and so those panels are replaced. Decades go by and even more wood goes bad and needs replacing. Before long, none of the original components used to build the ship are a part of the ship anymore. Do we still consider it to be the same ship?"

Triggers broom anyone ?

 

[RossG]

Just noticed the famous broom already mentioned, another OFAH fan

 

[TheBag]

"The gist is that the Greek mythical hero Theseus sailed a ship into battle and after victory, his ship is left in the harbour. As time goes by, some of the wood begins to rot and so those panels are replaced. Decades go by and even more wood goes bad and needs replacing. Before long, none of the original components used to build the ship are a part of the ship anymore. Do we still consider it to be the same ship?"

Triggers broom anyone ?

I unfortunately never watched only fools and horses growing up. I'm fairly certain that the ship of theseus predates any TV shows given Plato and Herclitus both wrote about it a few hundred years BC

 

[D C]

Triggers broom anyone ?

I have a bike like that, originally bought new in the early nineties as a Raleigh Dynatech, literally everything including frame and wheels has been replaced apart from the original large and small chain ring.
I don't feel it's the same bike but still can't bring myself to part with it.
Dave.