Yes these were full ACU sanctioned motor cycle trials back in the 90`s. It was amusing to ride from section to section and come across a little clearing with scouts encamped. It was like an ancient holliday camp at the car park and they seemed to have every amenity wooden huts and even as I remember a wagon like tuck shop. I think there were 90 acres in total. The gardens were much overgrown and just recognizable as such as you'd be riding up pave steps . How things change.
DVSA take companies to Court for selling illegal bikes.
- Thread starter Nealh
- Start date
It was an international scouting centre then, many of the scout groups camping were from all over Europe, even Russia! Amusing episode, out cycling by day I bumped into a group of French scouts asking for directions because they'd got lost after walking in the country area.
A few days later driving back up the Brighton Road to Croydon I recognised the same group walking far south of Croydon and obviously lost again, so I turned around. They'd missed a crucial turning trying to get back after a Saturday visit to Croydon centre so were on a very long walk to Crawley and Brighton!
Being almost 11 pm, I piled all six of them into my car and drove them back to Frylands Wood. Hopefully they eventually got back to France without getting lost again.
.
As I've said previously most ebikes in the world are controlled by throttles and those are bikes without need for licensing in most markets. It's just the logical way to control power on an ebike and was the same here until 2017. A variable power control is no big deal rather than stepped power levels. It's just a restriction set by the EU with no logic to it. I'd take the point if an ebike had no drivetrain and pedals and required movement totally on the motor but that isn't what we are talking about its just an ebike. Also we don't even see ebikes with a throttle to control power which require pedalling. It seems the legislation has pushed the EU market to restrict throttles across a huge number of models. Something is deeply wrong about EU legislation and their mindset to the detriment of EU consumers.
Wrong in every detail.
Within the EU we can and do have both EAPCs (pedelecs) and e-bikes, two different things and both legal. And the e-bikes can legally have throttles,
Presumably your objection is to having to register, number plate and insure an e-bike?
But that is not EU law. It's not even UK law. It is British law applicable only on the British mainland made by our parliament, who seem to think it all necessary.
These are what the EU permit:
1) Up to 250 watt Pedelecs with pedal control only assisting to 25 kph (15.5mph).
2) Up to 500 watt High Speed Pedelecs with pedal control, only assisting to 45 kph (28mph)
3) Up to 1000 watt e-bikes with throttles limited to 25kph (15.5mph) assist speed.
4) Up to 4000 watt e-bikes with throttles up to 45kph (28mph).
Whether any of these have to be registered, plated, insured etc is entirely up to member countries, since the EU makes no such rules. That is the whole basis of EU transport law. They set the harmonisation rules for those that have to be accepted for entry by all member countries, but the laws on usage in each country are a separate matter for each country to decide. That's why in EU member France, 14 year olds can drive low powered cars without any driving licence, just a safety certificate!
Britain only allows the first two wheeler to be free of bureaucracy. The second third and fourth are lumbered with the full bureaucracy, all by British law, not EU law.
.
Last edited:
The fine distinction between the first 3 instances only really exist in the minds of the bureaurocracy. The fact is there are now millions of ebikes out there which blur the lines and to actually make any clear distinction between them in the eyes of the general populace is plainly an excercise in futility. That horse has bolted and it's way too late to try and do anything about those millions of ebikes sold here in the last 6 or 7 years.
The only really practical solution is not to attempt to implement some wierd formula that only the DVSA understands (probably very few of them do) examining every bike in the country but to recognise they have left it too late, rescind the present laws and write a clear easily understood set of rules.
The only method that is practical and can be clearly understood is to limit the powered top speed of legal ebikes. Whether that is 15mph or 12 mph makes little difference to most riders such as myself who reqire a little assistance when starting off with a throttle, and assistance when cycling into aheadwind or an incline.
There is no logical reason why that solution could not be implemented. Any ebikes which have a higher top speed should be registered as a moped, with insurance, licence and taxed.
Totally self centred, only your needs matter.
You only have to open your eyes to all the other posts in here to realise that others have very different needs and desires. The EU formulas provide for all of them, letting countries decide how with each to suit their local situation.
However, we could have had exactly the law you require within the EU or now without it. The EU doesn't prevent it, our parliament does.
.
That is a bit harsh, not selfish and you have misunderstood my intent. The intent should be to clarify the law and limit all ebikes to 12 or 15 mph assisted. That will satisfy a very high proportion of ebike riders and encourage new riders to take up riding for the short trips for which they would normally take the car. 12-15mph is plenty for most ordinary folk, only the boy/girl racers who are a real and constant danger to everyone else on the footpaths and byways want to go a lot faster. The real dedicated cyclists head down, speed at all costs wouldn't have a bar of any sort of motor. EU ? Red herring-not relevant here.
The law is fine as it stands and needs no tinkering, it is quite simple !!! Anyone who want's an eapc/pedelec and to have the same rights as a normal push bike then simply forget about throttles, wanting more power and faster speed limits.
Anyone wanting a throttle or options not covered by eapc's then get a bike registered as a motor vehicle as that is what a throttle incurs.
Anyone wanting a throttle or options not covered by eapc's then get a bike registered as a motor vehicle as that is what a throttle incurs.
The EU is not a red herring in this instance, since I was replying to your post quoting my reply to BonzoBanana on the entirely EU matter he raised and wrongly complained of.
Facts:
We have inherited the EU transport law.
On leaving the EU the UK has written that EU law into UK law by the Great Repeal Bill.
The reason for doing that is that the government intends to continue to conform to it for vital trading reasons.
It follows that all these protests about the law as it stands are pointless.
I'm very much in favour of minimal law in all matters, but there are sensible ways of attempting to get that, as I've posted previously many times. Directly confronting government policy isn't one of them.
.
While the framing of the laws may be messy and complex the fundamental principle is quite simple, if the machine is self propelled then it is a motorcycle of some sort.
What an utter load of nonsense. If other countries deem a throttle control to still be an ebike or used like a bicycle with no registration or tax etc there is no reason to get on your high horse pretending you know best because you say any ebike with a throttle must be some sort of electric motorbike. Lots of countries allow throttle based ebikes with little restrictions to use across Asia, South America etc. Most people in the world are allowed to use ebikes with throttles especially when you factor in the high population countries of Asia including India and China. In fact that is part of the problem. There are great value Chinese ebikes with great functionality and when they get to Europe they are butchered in functionality terms to meet the dire anti-consumer EU rules. It's just so annoying, we need as many people on ebikes as possible but instead we have legislation that favours high cost unreliable EU assembled bikes and makes ebikes less accessible to all those who would benefit from them including people on low incomes and those who are weaker due to age or disabilities. It's just an awful situation of garbage legislation.
This silly arguing has been going on for the whole 16 years of this web site, it hasn't changed anything and it isn't going to.
I'm not getting on any sort of high horse. I'm not pretending I know best. I'm merely pointing out the facts and also that you are all wasting your efforts by your completely wrong approach.
Change course. Don't try to change pedelec law because you are never going to be able to. Just get the laws eased for e-bikes, which are a different thing. They are in many other countries as you've pointed out.
The DfT have already done that for us seven years ago with the 250LPM variant of the L1e-A class, enabling you to legally have exactly what you want right now, with what amounts to a pedelec with an independent acting throttle. The only snag is that having added a throttle to your e-bike, you have to get it checked at a authorised testing station to ensure it really is that and not some illegal high powered thing.
So either use that provision, or if you are still unhappy, try to do one of the below:
1) Try to get that testing requirement law changed. I doubt you will though, since it's the only thing that separates pedelecs from e-bikes.
2) Buy a ready approved 250LPM. At present only Wisper sell a range, but any pedelec or e-bike maker could. It seems that despite all the moans and groans in here, the demand is too small.
.
It seems straight forward to legally add a throttle to an individual eBike, but does a manufacturer have to get each and every copy of a particular model individually tested ?
Technically yes, since the regulation is under the Single Vehicle Approval scheme, not Type Approval law which is only for manufactured motor vehicles.
However I suspect that in practice once a manufacturer gets it rolling, their local testing station will have streamlined it for regularly approved models. Wisper originally used one testing station at Southampton but I believe they now use a more local one.
.
Yes that’s correct Tony, one bike at a time, it’s a pain! We now use Gillingham which is far closer, they have recently agreed for an extra fee they will come to us wand test several bikes which will be very useful as sometimes we can only get one appointment in a day.
We have looked at Type Approval for a model but that involves a lot more hoops and if we change one thing, even the handle bar grips technically we have to start the process again.
All the best, David
Yes that would be too expensive and inconvenient an option David.
Now Gillingham come to you and hopefully with sales of 250LPM increasing, it should become less irksome as they get as used to it as you are.
.
When I was a compliance officer dealing with certification many of the products I dealt with had a critical component list that had to be used for the certification to be legal. There was a few alternative components they could use because of supply issues but they were listed in the certification. They couldn't deviate from those and use other components. This was mainly power tools which has some parallels with ebikes I guess. Some of this was related to the RF interference testing which had to be at a low level. I realise product certification and Type Approval maybe not quite the same but wonder if there is a way of streamlining the process possibly supplying all component variations that would be possible. Seems strange to keep having to re-test pretty much the same spec ebikes. Couldn't they give you a critical component list you must meet to get approval for each ebike? Again I don't know how the type approval process works but most people don't like to be inefficient and bureaucratic. I was surprised how many people in certification, government bodies, BSI etc were actually realistic, pragmatic people. I wonder if you explain the benefits of such ebikes and how lowering costs gives greater accessibility to many people to cycling I wonder if they could be convinced to come up with a better solution. Even if its was batch approval. I.e. one test, allowed for 20 identical ebikes that would be something.
Hi BB,
I’ve not come across a critical component list before now, sounds sensible. I’ll enquire.
Thanks for your help.
All the best, David
Well to me, it seems the process for adding a throttle is rather tidy.
Related Articles
-
MTF Enterprises announces acquisition of EMU Electric Bikes- Started by: Pedelecs
-
Wisper 806T folding bike wins Which? ‘Best Buy’- Started by: Pedelecs
-
Sustrans calls for protected cycle lanes- Started by: Pedelecs
-
Amazon launch their first UK e-cargo micromobility hub- Started by: Pedelecs
