DVSA take companies to Court for selling illegal bikes.

[RoadieRoger]

Neal -This is where I totally disagree with you. A throttle, at least the way I use it, is of great assistance to us older folk who struggle to start off, and is a great enhancement to safety at a crowded set of traffic lights. There is nothing worse than an old fart like me starting off at the lights wobbling all over the road to get started, especially up an incline. No, no you leave our throttles alone. You say if you can't ride without one then you shouldn't be on the road. That to me invalidates the whole raison d'etre of a pedelec. Sureley we want to encourage older folk to be active into older age and cycling gives us great enjoyment.

Afaiac any throttle should be banned, if one can't ride a pedelec /eapc without leg power then one shouldn't ride one. A low powered bicycle is just that it can help on hills but should be no more.
I am seeing a lot more illegal bikes then before and none are peddaling, one a week ago on the A25 in the surry hills riding along at 25mph.

Nealh I cannot agree with your views that throttles should be banned on Pedelecs . I consider them to be an important safety feature . You are making the mistake of mixing riders who are out to recreate motorcycle performance on the `cheap` with leisure riders often the older ones, who like to ride bikes for a lot longer than they would otherwise, using ordinary bikes . The throttle is very handy for pulling away from junctions when the power might not kick in for several crank revolutions , more so if there is a gradient . I am lucky enough to have a selection of Ebikes with differing characteristics , with and without throttles and varying take off performances and my experiences over 12 years confirms my view on throttles . I don`t use the throttle at any other time .
I wouldn`t be riding a bike on 35 mile trips at the age of 84 if the Ebike hadn`t been invented .
I notice you quote that only 4% of the population ride bikes but I take issue with your assumption that others are too lazy . One of the main reasons is one of safety or self preservation . In other words they are scared to venture out to mix it with General traffic . I have been riding Motorcycles since 1958 and still do , so traffic holds no fears for me . I have a twin Brother who I ride with on our Ebikes who finished riding Motorcycles in 1963 who does have some of this nervousness . Hopefully with many more cycle paths being constructed this will improve .

 

[flecc]

Nealh I cannot agree with your views that throttles should be banned on Pedelecs . I consider them to be an important safety feature . You are making the mistake of mixing riders who are out to recreate motorcycle performance on the `cheap` with leisure riders often the older ones, who like to ride bikes for a lot longer than they would otherwise, using ordinary bikes . The throttle is very handy for pulling away from junctions when the power might not kick in for several crank revolutions , more so if there is a gradient . I am lucky enough to have a selection of Ebikes with differing characteristics , with and without throttles and varying take off performances and my experiences over 12 years confirms my view on throttles . I don`t use the throttle at any other time .
I wouldn`t be riding a bike on 35 mile trips at the age of 84 if the Ebike hadn`t been invented .
I notice you quote that only 4% of the population ride bikes but I take issue with your assumption that others are too lazy . One of the main reasons is one of safety or self preservation . In other words they are scared to venture out to mix it with General traffic . I have been riding Motorcycles since 1958 and still do , so traffic holds no fears for me . I have a twin Brother who I ride with on our Ebikes who finished riding Motorcycles in 1963 who does have some of this nervousness . Hopefully with many more cycle paths being constructed this will improve .

Since I joined this pedelecs forum as the first ever member, this argument about throttles has raged on, uniquely only in Britain because some bad drafting of our original pedelec law left an unintentional loophole. That loophole was closed and it will not reopen.

Get used to it, you will never have throttles permitted on legal pedelecs, read my years of posts on this subject, including just now in this thread, to understand why.

The DfT have provided a Britain only dodge now to have a throttle, but it means some inconvenience to get approval, or you are confine to the one maker of these models, Wisper. And having got one you can't cross the channel with it.

Alternatively you might just use a throttle anyway, on the basis that nobody is ever likely to prosecute you for it, but of course I can't recommend you do that.
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[Wisper Bikes]

Since I joined this pedelecs forum as the first ever member, this argument about throttles has raged on, uniquely only in Britain because some bad drafting of our original pedelec law left an unintentional loophole. That loophole was closed and it will not reopen.

Get used to it, you will never have throttles permitted on legal pedelecs, read my years of posts on this subject, including just now in this thread, to understand why.

The DfT have provided a Britain only dodge now to have a throttle, but it means some inconvenience to get approval, or you are confine to the one maker of these models, Wisper. And having got one you can't cross the channel with it.

Alternatively you might just use a throttle anyway, on the basis that nobody is ever likely to prosecute you for it, but of course I can't recommend you do that.
.

I wish it was only us who could get this upgrade done Tony! It’s actually very simple and anyone can get it done as long as their bikes pass as an EAPC.

It isn’t a dodge, it was the DfTs idea to make throttles available very easily and cheaply making cycling more inclusive when the new laws appertaining to eBikes were introduced several years ago. It was mainly due to pressure by the Motor Cycles Industry Trade Association and BAGB that throttles were removed at all. I was in the meetings making the case for keeping throttles and making eBiking more accessible to everyone.

If anyone’s interested in how to get their bike legally upgraded to full throttle I would be pleased to leave details here. We may currently be the only company offering this service but others will catch on quite quickly I’m sure.

Re going abroad: As long as the bike is reprogrammed back to throttle only to original settings if going out of the UK they are fully legal, we can re restrict easily and derestrict again when they return. However as you say the police and no one else is that bothered. Throttles not only make eBiking more accessible but they make moving in slow traffic much safer. In my opinion is was a backward step making them more difficult to obtain, it makes no sense.

All the best, David

 

[vidtek]

The interpretation is limited to defining parliament's intention. No English court can make completely new law, that is parliament's job.

That is a given, always has been you are deliberately misinterpreting me.


The fundamental that you are not understanding is that there is no such thing as a defined vehicle bypassing the 1835 Highway Act called a pedelec, or EAPC to use the legal name. They are simply bicycles under bicycle law with a very limited exemption from motor vehicle law allowing some assistance.

That is my point, the laws are so ancient, convoluted and contradictory that there is no way any English court can pass a "safe" judgement.

To repeat, the moment they are solely motor propelled, they become motorcycles and are illegal on the roads as not being type approved or approved by any of our previous laws. Even the Supreme Court cannot change that.

Parliament can repeal, amend and pass any laws they like, as the present ones relating to pedelecs are totally unworkable. Any person with a half-decent lawyer found guilty of contravening the present hodge-podge of bicycle laws will likely appeal and get off on any number of different technicalities.
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[flecc]

That is a given, always has been you are deliberately misinterpreting me.

I am not and never would. You were obviously unaware that what you were proposing was that the courts introduce new law. That, as I explained, was because there is no definition of a pedelec as a motor vehicle. Adding a throttle and losing the exemption for them remaining bicycles means necessarily making new law for them to be motor vehicles. That is because no motor vehicle can be on our roads without a specific type permission in two legal forms, technical and usage. So the court would have to make those new laws since pedelecs do not have them as motor vehicles.

In this we are indeed very different from the EU and most other countries. It's why you can see Segways running around the streets in many if not most countries, but not here in Britain.
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[vidtek]

Flecc - "That, as I explained, was because there is no definition of a pedelec as a motor vehicle."

What does that even mean? How can a bicycle ever be described as a motor vehicle. That is obviously nonsensical.

You do seem to be fixated on the law as it stands with all its contradictions and vague generalisations, and seem to be advocating tacking something else on to the dog's breakfast it presently is.

That is the way to opening another can of worms. What most of us who care more about the intent of the present laws which is to restrict pedelecs to 15mph powered rather than the strict interpretation of every nuance of each regulation as it presently stands.

Would it not be better to repeal all present laws as they stand and write a new set which enables the bicycle manufacturers and the DIY-ers to manufacture a bicycle with a powered speed restriction of 15mph. That would stop all arguments about wattage outputs and torque availability, enable throttles and stop the boy racers in their tracks.
It would also have the benefit of simplicity, although the lawyers who write these things will probably balls it up again.

 

[guerney]

If anyone’s interested in how to get their bike legally upgraded to full throttle I would be pleased to leave details here.

If there aren't too many burning hoops to jump through, I would be interested in putting my throttle back on and legalising it.

 

[StuartsProjects]

Would it not be better to repeal all present laws as they stand and write a new set which enables the bicycle manufacturers and the DIY-ers to manufacture a bicycle with a powered speed restriction of 15mph.

After all if you have a big Watt motor, then its not such a serious issue that you can get up to top speed (the 15mph) a bit quicker.

However, since there appears to be little enthusiasm for enforcing the 15mph limit, what rules\laws should be in place to ensure that all the bikes with motors really really really do have 15mph hardcoded in ?

And what if maybe they did get rid of the power limits, what about forums like this, where it seems normal to give advice on how to de-restrict bikes.

 

[flecc]

Flecc - "That, as I explained, was because there is no definition of a pedelec as a motor vehicle."

What does that even mean? How can a bicycle ever be described as a motor vehicle. That is obviously nonsensical.

No, it is only nonsensical in your weird way of thinking. We have known what a bicycle is since the first Hobby Horse some two hundred years ago, a wheeled mechanical device propelled by a human.

Once a motor is added which alone can propel it, it then becomes by commonsense and legal definition a motor vehicle.

You do seem to be fixated on the law as it stands with all its contradictions and vague generalisations, and seem to be advocating tacking something else on to the dog's breakfast it presently is.

Not so, that is what you are doing by wanting to tack on throttle permission for motor vehicle type usage. I'm doing quite the opposite, wanting to ease the more appropriate law to give you what you want. That indeed is what the DfT intended with the 250LPM measure, but clumsily and in my view inappropriate and too inconvenient

What most of us who care more about the intent of the present laws which is to restrict pedelecs to 15mph powered. [/QUOTE]

I don't know where you get that idea from, the intent of this kind of law all around the world was to retain them as bicycles and not motor vehicles, sometimes at different assist speed limits. The way that was mostly done was by controlling the power by pedalling. Simple human action and defining the very nature of a bicycle. A fixed motor speed limiting doesn't do that
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[guerney]

And what if maybe they did get rid of the power limits, what about forums like this, where it seems normal to give advice on how to de-restrict bikes.

To be fair, many of the technical threads are full of arcane KT controller/sensor/motor/battery or other weird electrickery I know not what of, but is interesting to read in case something KT sticks. My next kit may well be a KT.

 

[flecc]

P.S. Vidtek. The forum is messing up my answers it did with one of your previous replies. Hence my last answer above being combined with the quote of your proposal.
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[Craiggor 2]

The question why can’t pedelecs have a throttle will become a bigger one when they eventually legalise escooters. According to the hire scooter guidelines all you would need to do is take your chain off your pedelec.

 

[flecc]

The question why can’t pedelecs have a throttle will become a bigger one when they eventually legalise escooters. According to the hire scooter guidelines all you would need to do is take your chain off your pedelec.

Depending on how they legalise as well as if. The government is on record as saying they would prefer to specify the Continental limit of 20 kph, in line with their intention to retain EU vehicle law.

That would scupper e-bike use as an e-scooter.
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[Craiggor 2]

Depending on how they legalise as well as if. The government is on record as saying they would prefer to specify the Continental limit of 20 kph, in line with their intention to retain EU vehicle law.

That would scupper e-bike use as an e-scooter.
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Some people would be happy with a 12mph ebike with a throttle. Remember it’s only the British road cyclists that want to go faster than that.

 

[Craiggor 2]

Will the DVSA be going after the childrens electric ride on sellers? It’s pretty hard to find one advertised as not for pavement/road use.

 

[Wisper Bikes]

If there aren't too many burning hoops to jump through, I would be interested in putting my throttle back on and legalising it.

I’ll post details tomorrow.

All the best, David

 

[georgehenry]

When I bought my first 2011 Oxygen Emate it came with an unrestricted throttle. The law allowed my bike to be sold and be legal in 2011. What changed? I have a feeling it was something to do with Europe.

So perhaps the full throttle dispensation could be made again without having to put your bike through a DVLA test, though presumably that would put us out of step with European legislation.

 

[Wisper Bikes]

When I bought my first 2011 Oxygen Emate it came with an unrestricted throttle. The law allowed my bike to be sold and be legal in 2011. What changed? I have a feeling it was something to do with Europe.

So perhaps the full throttle dispensation could be made again without having to put your bike through a DVLA test, though presumably that would put us out of step with European legislation.

Hi George, your Oxygen Emate is still legal and due to something called “Grandfather rights” it’s likely ever to be so.

I argued strenuously that the throttle should not be removed in the UK, as it opened cycling to many that would not be able to enjoy such a liberating mode of transport. The best we could do was to get this dispensation. £55 is not a fortune to have your bike checked to make sure it complies to current legislation. It stops bikes outside the law being certified. This is not likely to change.

All the best, David

 

[flecc]

When I bought my first 2011 Oxygen Emate it came with an unrestricted throttle. The law allowed my bike to be sold and be legal in 2011. What changed? I have a feeling it was something to do with Europe.

So perhaps the full throttle dispensation could be made again without having to put your bike through a DVLA test, though presumably that would put us out of step with European legislation.

It was our lax drafting of the EAPC law that commenced the problem since that omitted spelling out how power was to be applied, leaving the door wide open to any method,

Elsewhere pedalling applying the power was preferred. Accordingly in May 2003 when the EU passed a mandatory harmonisation type approval measure which incorporated an exemption from being a motor vehicle for pedelecs, pedal application of power was specified as a condition for the exemption.

All member countries of the EU were ordered to apply that law by 9th November 2003, at the same time removing all conflicting legislation. The DfT left this to the last minute and in their haste then omitted to remove or alter our conflicting legislation, namely the 1983 EAPC regulation.

This left us with two conflicting laws causing endless confusion, the old British one for 200 watts and any method of applying that, and the EU one for 250 watts, only applied by pedalling. The DfT knew this needed correction but didn't seem to understand that by international treaty, only the EU law applied, wrongly saying it was for the courts to decide. Accordingly it wasn't until 12 years later that they finally corrected the error by a law amending the 1983 EAPC regulation, the amendment coming into force on 6th April 2015.

As usual, this was not retrospective, leaving earlier machines like yours permanently legal still, while making life even more impossible for the police. Their simple solution has been to ignore the matter, and I expect this to continue.
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[georgehenry]

Thanks flecc for your excellent explanation. After buying my second Oxygen Emate for £100 out of the classified section I now have two simple rear hub bikes with unrestricted throttles that are both legal. Happy days.