DVSA take companies to Court for selling illegal bikes.

[StuartsProjects]

Neal -This is where I totally disagree with you. A throttle, at least the way I use it, is of great assistance to us older folk who struggle to start off, and is a great enhancement to safety at a crowded set of traffic lights. There is nothing worse than an old fart like me starting off at the lights wobbling all over the road to get started, especially up an incline. No, no you leave our throttles alone. You say if you can't ride without one then you shouldn't be on the road. That to me invalidates the whole raison d'etre of a pedelec. Sureley we want to encourage older folk to be active into older age and cycling gives us great enjoyment.

And I would tend to agree with that.

If on my eBike I ease back on the pressure of the pedals, and just spin them, the motor is still powered, shock horror.

So just moving the pedals, with no real effort is a throttle really, so why the sham of having to show you can
only just move the pedals ?

As for the moving away from the lights scenario, having got older also I would agree its a benefit to have a bit of a push as you move off. Perhaps a pressure sensor in the pedals to replace the throttle, if you apply pressure to the pedals on most every bike the pedals will move, even if its only a tiny tiny amount.

 

[flecc]

A throttle, at least the way I use it, is of great assistance to us older folk who struggle to start off, and is a great enhancement to safety at a crowded set of traffic lights.

As for the moving away from the lights scenario, having got older also I would agree its a benefit to have a bit of a push as you move off. Perhaps a pressure sensor in the pedals to replace the throttle, if you apply pressure to the pedals on most every bike the pedals will move, even if its only a tiny tiny amount.

A torque sensor is the pressure sensor Stuart asks for and many mid drives and some hub motor bikes have them.

Neither of you need a throttle, a good torque sensor does exactly what you want. The first pedelec I owned was the original Giant Lafree Twist, quite low powered. But at a standstill, a push on a pedal and it shot away, momentarily ahead of the front cars at lights. I bought that model at 72 years old and it suited my assistance needs well. Here's the bike:

 

[vidtek]

A torque sensor is the pressure sensor Stuart asks for and many mid drives and some hub motor bikes have them.

Neither of you need a throttle, a good torque sensor does exactly what you want. The first pedelec I owned was the original Giant Lafree Twist, quite low powered. But at a standstill, a push on a pedal and it shot away, momentarily ahead of the front cars at lights. I bought that model at 72 years old and it suited my assistance needs well. Here's the bike:

View attachment 48869

It doesn't give me the same sort of confidence a throttle does. I know I push that throttle and away I go, stepping on the pedal doesn't do it for me, and I suspect for many others.

 

[Nealh]

If i ever get to state of wobbling all over the shot, iwould give up two wheels and get a tadpole trike for my trailer and errand running.

 

[nigelbb]

On a recent visit to CanadaI saw a lot of eBikes & eScooters. The rules are that they are limited to 500 W output & cannot travel faster than 32 km/h (20 mph) on motor power alone on level ground. Throttles are permitted but they must be able to be propelled by pedal power alone.

Now that the UK has left the EU we could easily adopt the same eBike laws as Canada.

 

[guerney]

On a recent visit to CanadaI saw a lot of eBikes & eScooters. The rules are that they are limited to 500 W output & cannot travel faster than 32 km/h (20 mph) on motor power alone on level ground. Throttles are permitted but they must be able to be propelled by pedal power alone.

A 500W motored bike can easily exceed 20mph, did you see many travelling faster?

Now that the UK has left the EU we could easily adopt the same eBike laws as Canada.

I do hope so - 500W would make towing trailers much easier, and I do miss my throttle - especially on a very tricky part of my regular hauling journey, where the path kinks to the left through a narrow open gate. When I don't get passing through that right using pedal assist, I'm stuck on an incline with a heavy trailer, having to push that and the bike up, aided by the 3.7mph limited "Walk" function, which doesn't supply enough power at all.

 

[vidtek]

If i ever get to state of wobbling all over the shot, iwould give up two wheels and get a tadpole trike for my trailer and errand running.

That's the point-with a throttle I do not wobble all over the place on start-off. A trike is not a bad idea, but if I got myself a trike I'd have to lose one of my cars, the garage is choc-a-bloc as it is.

 

[guerney]

That's the point-with a throttle I do not wobble all over the place on start-off.

There's more wobbling if I've been forced to stop on too high a gear. One a low gear, there isn't much wobbling starting off, unless I've stopped on a hill. Throttles being made legal would make situations like that and negotiating roundabouts safer, providing rapid accurate acceleration.

 

[guerney]

if I got myself a trike I'd have to lose one of my cars, the garage is choc-a-bloc as it is.

???

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fischer-ProfiPlus-Bicycle-Capacity-Suspension/dp/B088S29XYB/

 

[vidtek]

???

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fischer-ProfiPlus-Bicycle-Capacity-Suspension/dp/B088S29XYB/

Uhhh......

 

[guerney]

Uhhh......View attachment 48873

Cut a hole in the ceiling and hoist the tadpole ebike up into the loft?

 

[vidtek]

Cut a hole in the ceiling and hoist the tadpole ebike up into the loft?

I know it's a bleeding mess. Trouble is, I have downsized 3 times in the last 10 years. First time if I hadn't used it for 10 years-out it went. Second time if I hadn't used it in the last year - down the tip. The last time when we moved into our granny flat it was 6 months. And it still looks like this.........

 

[georgehenry]

I must admit as a simple transport vehicle I love my Oxygen 2011 Emate, a geared rear hub cadence sensor bike with unrestricted throttle and two brake cut outs, well one now. Works really well. As Bonzo Banana said, when pulling away the throttle allows you to have full power from the off. You can also add full power whenever you feel the need.

 

[flecc]

It doesn't give me the same sort of confidence a throttle does. I know I push that throttle and away I go, stepping on the pedal doesn't do it for me, and I suspect for many others.

So you need a motor vehicle, an L1e-A or L1e-B moped class e-bike, but of course they have all the irksome motor vehicle bureaucracy.

Theres no getting around this, motor vehicles start when human or animal power stops. It's a matter of definition, the very definition of a bicycle from the 1817 hobby horse on is that it has always been human propelled. When that is replaced by mechanical means, it's a motor vehicle, both in law and in common sense.

What can change is the level of bureaucracy attached to those lower end motor vehicles and that is where the effort for change should be directed, not in trying to redefine what a bicycle is.

Meanwhile you can have a throttle on a pedelec in the UK in one of two ways via a local concession** the DfT and DVLA have made. Fit the throttle and take the e-bike through the test for approval as the 250LPM class at an approved testing station at a cost of £55. That allows use as a normal pedelec in the UK only but also using the throttle.

If that is too much trouble, buy one of the Wisper models that have already been certified as 250LPM.

** This means the pedelec becomes a motor vehicle in law but with an official blind eye turned to the motor vehicle regulations.
.

 

[vidtek]

So you need a motor vehicle, an L1e-A or L1e-B moped class e-bike, but of course they have all the irksome motor vehicle bureaucracy.

Theres no getting around this, motor vehicles start when human or animal power stops. It's a matter of definition, the very definition of a bicycle from the 1817 hobby horse on is that it has always been human propelled. When that is replaced by mechanical means, it's a motor vehicle, both in law and in common sense.

What can change is the level of bureaucracy attached to those lower end motor vehicles and that is where the effort for change should be directed, not in trying to redefine what a bicycle is.

Meanwhile you can have a throttle on a pedelec in the UK in one of two ways via a local concession** the DVLA have made. Fit the throttle and take the e-bike through the test for approval as the 250LPM class at an approved testing station at a cost of £55. That allows use as a normal pedelec in the UK only but also using the throttle.

If that is too much trouble, buy one of the Wisper models that have already been certified as 250LPM.

** This means the pedelec becomes a motor vehicle in law but with an official blind eye turned to the motor vehicle regulations.
.

Let's face it, the law is a total Mish mash of different regs. from many decades. I doubt if any court could give a definitive ruling without multiple appeals and challenges that could take many years. Your assertion that we want a motorbike is self evident nonsense. Courts in this country now we are out of the EU have the ability to create precedents and rule on the INTENT of the law. Clearly in this instance the intent is to improve safety, not to tear along the highway at 20 plus mph.

 

[Plas man]

Best wait and see what the guys say at No 10 , I’ll drift off here ... some years ago the Reliant motor Company stopped three wheeler production , there was plenty of guys out there with only motorcycle licences that enabled them to ride a bike and side car also a three wheeler (under 8cwt ) , what the goverment did was to allow them to drive a 4 wheeler , hence the arrival of the Microcar (not the bubble car) . So best wait and see what the lady pm has to say - if she can be bothered .

 

[flecc]

Let's face it, the law is a total Mish mash of different regs. from many decades. I doubt if any court could give a definitive ruling without multiple appeals and challenges that could take many years. Your assertion that we want a motorbike is self evident nonsense. Courts in this country now we are out of the EU have the ability to create precedents and rule on the INTENT of the law. Clearly in this instance the intent is to improve safety, not to tear along the highway at 20 plus mph.

You'll never get anywhere while you persist with such nonsense. I've clearly spelled out the position for you and it is a rational one common through much of the world, not in way way unique to Britain.

Our Courts cannot redefine the law, they can only interpret the original intent, and in this case the intent is to keep pedelecs as bicycles. Indeed that is the whole basis of pedelec law, that it is a conditional exemption from being motor vehicles. Thus there is no law the courts can ease on throttles, since the moment an EAPC is solely motor propelled, the exemption is lost. Then the pedelec automatically becomes a motor vehicle and is thus illegal in our law until a law is written and passed defining a pedelec as a permitted motor vehicle. That is the basic nature of our motor vehicle law, one I understand extremely well and which you clearly don't.

That is why I've explained that it is motor vehicle law that needs change to satisfy some obvious needs of assisted bicycle riders, but that is a matter for the DfT and parliament.
.

 

[flecc]

hence the arrival of the Microcar (not the bubble car) .

That bit is wrong.

The vehicles you speak of arrived in the 1920s long before Reliant existed, when they were named cyclecars, being very light four wheeled cars. Reliant were able to use that law. Later that class was renamed quadricycles and that is what they remain still today.

There have been a number of failed attempts to popularise them again in recent times, but currently we've only had two recently, both French. The now discontinued Renault Twizy and the Citroen Ami which is just commencing deliveries in the UK now. Sadly the Ami just tips over a 450 kg limit meaning 16 year olds cannot drive one here.
.

 

[vidtek]

You'll never get anywhere while you persist with such nonsense. I've clearly spelled out the position for you and it is a rational one common through much of the world, not in way way unique to Britain.

Our Courts cannot redefine the law, they can only interpret the original intent, and in this case the intent is to keep pedelecs as bicycles. Indeed that is the whole basis of pedelec law, that it is a conditional exemption from being motor vehicles. Thus there is no law the courts can ease on throttles, since the moment an EAPC is solely motor propelled, the exemption is lost. Then the pedelec automatically becomes a motor vehicle and is thus illegal in our law until a law is written and passed defining a pedelec as a permitted motor vehicle. That is the basic nature of our motor vehicle law, one I understand extremely well and which you clearly don't.

That is why I've explained that it is motor vehicle law that needs change to satisfy some obvious needs of assisted bicycle riders, but that is a matter for the DfT and parliament.
.

Sorry we're going to have to disagree on this. The law is and always has been in English law open to interpretation and development. It is totally different to the EU law.

 

[flecc]

Sorry we're going to have to disagree on this. The law is and always has been in English law open to interpretation and development. It is totally different to the EU law.

The interpretation is limited to defining parliament's intention. No English court can make completely new law, that is parliament's job.

The fundamental that you are not understanding is that there is no such thing as a defined vehicle bypassing the 1835 Highway Act called a pedelec, or EAPC to use the legal name. They are simply bicycles under bicycle law with a very limited exemption from motor vehicle law allowing some assistance.

To repeat, the moment they are solely motor propelled, they become motorcycles and are illegal on the roads as not being type approved or approved by any of our previous laws.

Even the Supreme Court cannot change that.
.