DVSA take companies to Court for selling illegal bikes.

[Zlatan]

The forum rules are quite specific on this;

"Pedelecs operates a one account per person policy. You agree to not use the Service to submit or link to any Content which is defamatory, abusive, hateful, threatening, spam or spam-like, likely to offend, contains adult or objectionable content, contains personal information of others, risks copyright infringement, encourages unlawful activity, or otherwise violates any laws."

Having rules and enforcing them are very different. (apparently both on site and generally with regard sticking to nominal 250w, max aided speed of 15.5 mph or even having a throttle.)
Found attached in about 15 seconds of searching. Premise of erntire thread was OP wanted a derestricted pedelec.(a moped masquerading as a pedelec, to avoid registration, tax and insurance)


We can justify it however we wish. Simple fact is a vast proportion of "pedelecs" are simply not, some blatantly exceeding 250w nominal..and some utilising power way past
15.5 mph.
Arguing its acceptable because legal crank drives see 600 w maximums (I, ve seen 650 on mine) is completely missing point. There are a group of lads around here often seen going up dual carriageway at 40mph..I somehow doubt my Giant even when pushing out its 700w would get anywhere near. My peaks (most I, ve seen are 648 W) are exactly that. Instaneous peaks for tenths of seconds. Interestingly I have never averaged over 250w usage on any ride, even when 500w maximums have been experienced. There are folk on here boasting about 40 mph capability...and chap last week was telling me he could flatten his 1kwh of batteries in 45 mins.???
Time we all took responsibility and stopped justifying this blatant deliberate muddying of the rules so many folk can ride uninsured, untaxed, unregistered motorbikes.
If you want a motorbike, go and buy one but register, tax and insure it. Simple. But get off National Park paths on ebikes. Pushbike and pedelecs fine.
The electrical nature for pedelecs is assistance and not replacement.

 

[flecc]

The electrical nature for pedelecs is assistance and not replacement.

Indeed, and why our legal name for them is EAPC:

Electric Assist Pedal Cycles

And in the EU, EPAC, almost but not quite the same thing.
.

 

[matthewslack]

Upping the power/speed to S pedelec type bikes will lose you the right to use most of the quite offroad tracks and bridle ways that can be used.

I'll have to become a two or more bike family!

In the back of my mind is reducing my journey time on a regular 430 mile trip from five to three or even two days. Can't be done within pedelec parameters.

I take two days when I drive it, so would solve my one remaining 'need' for fossil fuel transport.

 

[guerney]

What about all the cars and motorbikes capable of 150mph - oh no wait, they're not illegal are they ? !!!!

It's fortunate driving tests include drag races.

 

[guerney]

I'll have to become a two or more bike family!

In the back of my mind is reducing my journey time on a regular 430 mile trip from five to three or even two days. Can't be done within pedelec parameters.

I take two days when I drive it, so would solve my one remaining 'need' for fossil fuel transport.

My Homcom trailer manual warns: "Dangerous over 10mph". The idea of towing a heavy trailer using a bicycle at 40mph+ fills me with horror. What's the weight of your solar trailer, and what proportion is that weight to the weight of your entire ensemble? What type of bicycle axle is the trailer attached to? The cargo weight limit of Carry Freedom trailers when attached to QR bicycle axles, is 50kg. I wouldn't fscking do it.

 

[matthewslack]

My Homcom trailer manual warns: "Dangerous over 10mph". The idea of towing a heavy trailer using a bicycle at 40mph+ fills me with horror. What's the weight of your solar trailer, and what proportion is that weight to the weight of your entire ensemble? What type of bicycle axle is the trailer attached to? The cargo weight limit of Carry Freedom trailers when attached to QR bicycle axles, is 50kg. I wouldn't fscking do it.

Worry not, I'm in the blue sky stage of an entirely new rig, not just looking to go faster on my existing axle number 4!

 

[AndyBike]

Good. About time the law cracked down on these Lycra louts

 

[AntonyC]

I do wonder whether our borderline nonsensical motor power rule is a civil servant's canny response to ignorant or conflicting instructions, leaving the door ajar so as not to rule out pedicab, cargo, disability and future innovations.

In my own case we're surrounded by long 14%, even 22% slopes which would burn up a small motor in short order. I use an oversize motor to soak up the heat and restrict the controller to 'bicycle' performance around 16mph, and thankfully it wouldn't be illegal AIUI to mark the motor with '250W' to keep the zealots happy.

At the end of the day bike law almost certainly aims to keep pedestrians safe, the Parks from being torn up etc. - that really does come down to 'assistance' and choosing when to enforce, so loose rules are no bad thing.

 

[AntonyC]

Worry not, I'm in the blue sky stage of an entirely new rig, not just looking to go faster on my existing axle number 4!

You've been reading up on Aptera, haven't you? A solar skinned velomobile... I can't wait!

 

[Zlatan]

I do wonder whether our borderline nonsensical motor power rule is a civil servant's canny response to ignorant or conflicting instructions, leaving the door ajar so as not to rule out pedicab, cargo, disability and future innovations.

In my own case we're surrounded by long 14%, even 22% slopes which would burn up a small motor in short order. I use an oversize motor to soak up the heat and restrict the controller to 'bicycle' performance around 16mph, and thankfully it wouldn't be illegal AIUI to mark the motor with '250W' to keep the zealots happy.

At the end of the day bike law almost certainly aims to keep pedestrians safe, the Parks from being torn up etc. - that really does come down to 'assistance' and choosing when to enforce, so loose rules are no bad thing.

Agree with much of this but saying a 22% hill would soon burn out a small (250w?) motor is none sense. My Haibike is approaching 6000 hard miles and has climbed hundreds of long climbs steeper than 22%... At average pushbike speeds 250 w in combination with probably the 150 or so provided by rider is more than adequate to climb any hill, within reason, repeatedly. I, ve found technical difficulty is way more likely to prevent progress before lack of power. (In fact breaking traction can be big problem on really steep climbs) If the motor is rated at 250w continuos, thats exactly what it means. It should be able to give that 250w pretty indefinitely, how you choose to apply that 250w is actually irrelevant. If it's used to supplement the riders efforts it's enough. If it's trying to replace them, forget it..
On crank drive, on a decent bike, 250w is adequate to climb anything. (tried to find it but couldn't, there is a film of some rider climbing a ski jump on a Haibike)
The issue is at what speed?
I have a long steep climb in Derbyshire on which I average 4mph on standard mtb. On my Haibike I average 11mph and on Giant 13 mph. I, d probably fly up it at 30 mph plus on my KTM Enduro motorbike.???
Are we comparing climbing ability of a pedelec with a pushbike or a motorbike?
To my mind it's got to be pushbike.

 

[Bonzo Banana]

Speed limit yes, but definitely not a weight limit. We've only recently got rid of them to allow cargo bikes and pedicabs which we want to encourage.



The European parliament tried to get the EU Commission to get rid of all power limits, leaving that to designers, and just have the strict assist speed limit.

That would have done the trick, but the Commission rejected the proposal. A pity, since being able to have much more power would also be ideal for cargo bikes and pedicabs.



No way, just look at the history. Our pedelec laws have always been very harsh and it is only thanks to the EU that they were eased so much.

We are still very harsh, just look at the refusal to accept S-pedelecs, the refusal get rid of driving licences for low powered quadricycles, the refusal to allow 16 or even 14 year olds driving low powered quadricycles, the idiotic minimum age of 14 years to ride a pedelec.

The last thing we need is to let the UK parliament anywhere near pedelec law.
.

As ever we totally disagree I don't like the pedelec law at all it restricts the weak elderly or disabled from enjoying ebikes I see nothing wrong with the original UK legislation that allowed for twist and go ebikes. Most of the world uses ebikes with throttles but here in Europe we have this farcical pedelec law to favour European manufacturers mainly in Germany which means increased costs and inferior reliability.

I do however accept your point about cargo bikes but I feel they should be a special category anyway as I've only encountered one or two and they are large and slow and take more of the road and cycle paths. Some of them are really quite heavy when fully loaded and quite wide. When climbing hills I'm sure their motors are drawing more power than 250W. There surely must be a limit in size and weight for a ebike. I mean you can't just have something almost car size going up hills at 12mph impacting all traffic around it. Smaller cargo bikes aren't that heavy and not a problem anyway but for those that are around 65kg etc then I feel they should be in a different classification. At the moment they are excessively expensive and quite rare on the roads but imagine if such vehicles were 100x as common. You also see them with 2 kids in the front which pretty much act as the crumple zone protecting the cyclist in the event of an accident. There seems little regulation there to protect their safety. So personally I feel for exceptionally heavy or powerful ebikes there should be more regulation especially if they carry multiple persons.

 

[Zlatan]

As ever we totally disagree I don't like the pedelec law at all it restricts the weak elderly or disabled from enjoying ebikes I see nothing wrong with the original UK legislation that allowed for twist and go ebikes. Most of the world uses ebikes with throttles but here in Europe we have this farcical pedelec law to favour European manufacturers mainly in Germany which means increased costs and inferior reliability.

I do however accept your point about cargo bikes but I feel they should be a special category anyway as I've only encountered one or two and they are large and slow and take more of the road and cycle paths. Some of them are really quite heavy when fully loaded and quite wide. When climbing hills I'm sure their motors are drawing more power than 250W. There surely must be a limit in size and weight for a ebike. I mean you can't just have something almost car size going up hills at 12mph impacting all traffic around it. Smaller cargo bikes aren't that heavy and not a problem anyway but for those that are around 65kg etc then I feel they should be in a different classification. At the moment they are excessively expensive and quite rare on the roads but imagine if such vehicles were 100x as common. You also see them with 2 kids in the front which pretty much act as the crumple zone protecting the cyclist in the event of an accident. There seems little regulation there to protect their safety. So personally I feel for exceptionally heavy or powerful ebikes there should be more regulation especially if they carry multiple persons.

You talk a lot of sense but can't quite see logic in passing pedelecs laws so they can double up as 2 wheel invalidity scooters?
As it is should someone totally incapable of riding an ordinary bike be riding a pedelec. You are making the bike take on a roll way out of its design parameters. The pedelec is a true hybrid, combining leg power with e power. Take the leg power away and it can't (or shouldn't) really work.
The throttle argument should be self defeating. Bike should need that input rider provides to operate. (at 350% assistance effort on pedals isn't large anyhow, but Should still be required.)
If bike is capable of transit on throttle alone, by definition its not a pedelec. Its an ebike.
(I suspect its why we have 14 year old age requirement to use pedelec, put my 8 year old grandson on my Haibike and it's a motorbike for him, yet still a pedelec for me, especially so if a throttle (being pedantic wrong word, it's an accelerator) is fitted.
The laws are fine.
Pedelecs work brilliantly when used as designed and for roll they were intended. ie) to offer assistance to riders to help climb hills and take some of strain out of cycling. If you change that remit, of course, they are not ideal.

 

[flecc]

As ever we totally disagree I don't like the pedelec law at all it restricts the weak elderly or disabled from enjoying ebikes I see nothing wrong with the original UK legislation that allowed for twist and go ebikes. Most of the world uses ebikes with throttles but here in Europe we have this farcical pedelec law to favour European manufacturers mainly in Germany which means increased costs and inferior reliability.

I do however accept your point about cargo bikes but I feel they should be a special category anyway as I've only encountered one or two and they are large and slow and take more of the road and cycle paths. Some of them are really quite heavy when fully loaded and quite wide. When climbing hills I'm sure their motors are drawing more power than 250W. There surely must be a limit in size and weight for a ebike. I mean you can't just have something almost car size going up hills at 12mph impacting all traffic around it. Smaller cargo bikes aren't that heavy and not a problem anyway but for those that are around 65kg etc then I feel they should be in a different classification. At the moment they are excessively expensive and quite rare on the roads but imagine if such vehicles were 100x as common. You also see them with 2 kids in the front which pretty much act as the crumple zone protecting the cyclist in the event of an accident. There seems little regulation there to protect their safety. So personally I feel for exceptionally heavy or powerful ebikes there should be more regulation especially if they carry multiple persons.

That's very parochial, speaking only of Britain. Cargo bikes are 100 times more common in The Netherlands and Denmark and pedicab use is increasingly common in France. They don't seem to have problems with them.

A 250 watt continuous rating doesn't preclude very high power, it just has to come in at very low speeds. The Lynch rear axle motor for pedicabs and 250 kilo payload vans is 250 watt rated and legal here, but can peak at near to 5 kilowatts of power to handle any hill. It's downside is maximum speed typically about 8 mph, fast enough on bicycle type brakes, and the highest power is at near stall speeds so 1 or 2 mph climbs of the steepest hills.
.

 

[Nealh]

Afaiac any throttle should be banned, if one can't ride a pedelec /eapc without leg power then one shouldn't ride one. A low powered bicycle is just that it can help on hills but should be no more.
I am seeing a lot more illegal bikes then before and none are peddaling, one a week ago on the A25 in the surry hills riding along at 25mph.

 

[Zlatan]

Afaiac any throttle should be banned, if one can't ride a pedelec /eapc without leg power then one shouldn't ride one. A low powered bicycle is just that it can help on hills but should be no more.
I am seeing a lot more illegal bikes then before and none are peddaling, one a week ago on the A25 in the surry hills riding along at 25mph.

Similar story in Derbyshire. Saw an influx of pedelecs starting a few years ago, those riders seem to have adopted such as Stealth, Surons etc or building their own take on pedelecs. (a move towards hub drives, which to compete with crank off road all seem to be at least 1500 w)
Last week a lad pulled up along side me at traffic lights (I was in car) on a home made Stealth Bomber type bike (no reg, no helmet) and left lights more akin to a fire blade than a pushbike. Hub motor was almost size of back wheel. On the one hand very impressive on the other authorities must step in. There are thousands hiding behind pedelec laws. It really isn't fair for folk wanting to use pedelecs for and as they were intended.

 

[AndyBike]

I do wonder whether our borderline nonsensical motor power rule is a civil servant's canny response to ignorant or conflicting instructions, leaving the door ajar so as not to rule out pedicab, cargo, disability and future innovations.

What is incredible is some have the notion that Ebikes are actually faster than analogue bikes. I cant think how many times I've heard that in newspaper reports and in comments sections.
It's utter nonsense, on my analogue I would ride at about 22mph, so when i went Ebike i was actually surprised i wasnt able to easily get up to that speed easily.
Mind you, the Ebike weighs 52lbs, and my analogues usually come in at about 24lbs, obviously mountainbikes. Road bikes are much lighter and their riders usually exceed the 25mph to 30mph quite easily.

I can only surmise whomever came up with the 15.5 has never ridden a bicycle in their life.

 

[flecc]

I can only surmise whomever came up with the 15.5 has never ridden a bicycle in their life.

Very wrong. Completely the opposite. The countries who came up with the 25 kph (15.5mph) were the ones who had always cycled, always far, far more than we have and still cycle far more.

Up until about 1960 we in Britain cycled like them, typically at about 10mph and rarely at 12 mph when getting a move on. That is why our original bicycle assist law at the time came up with 12 mph maximum assist speed, because that was as fast as our cyclists rode then.

Between 1960 and the mid 1980s, cycling all but disappeared from Britain and the bike trade shrank to a shadow of its former self. When it revived from the mid 1980s on it was entirely sporting in nature, and that is where our daft habit of riding with high effort at higher speeds came from, making cycling much harder work that it should be.

The EU came up with a little faster at 25 kph to satisfy the likes of France and Italy, but their main cycling countries were and still are happy with the current restriction. What members like yourself in here don't seem to understand is that in Europe, including the UK and many other parts of the world, 25 kph is where motor vehicles start at with power.

It's at 25 kph that the first motor vehicle class appears, variously called Low Powered Moped or L1e-A, they have to be insured and usually ridden with some form of driving licence.

That is why pedelecs cannot break the 25 kph barrier without suffering lots more bureacracy. I wish people would just get that into their heads and stop wasting words in this futile, endless argument for a higher assist speed.

It isn't going to happen since, as explained, it can't happen.
.

 

[StuartsProjects]

Road bikes are much lighter and their riders usually exceed the 25mph to 30mph quite easily.

Absolutly, on a decent road bike 30mph+ is not difficult for short periods.

Atlthough as you get older its seems to get harder to go so fast for some reason.

 

[guerney]

Despite the hysterics on this forum about illegal ebikes, cycling appears to be approximately 2.7% more deadly than being a car occupant in 2021, a 13% increase on years 2017 to 2019.

Reported road casualties Great Britain, provisional results: 2021

www.gov.uk

The war on illegal ebikes will fail in a similar fashion to the war on illegal drugs - illegal ebikes will be used everywhere, despite the authorities targeting suppliers. I can't wait to see Bosch and Yamaha ebike motor recalls.

 

[guerney]

Atlthough as you get older its seems to get harder to go so fast for some reason.

Over time, we've accumulated more Dark Matter - this can't be measured, so I can't be disproven.