DVSA take companies to Court for selling illegal bikes.

Mate folding ebike was found by DVSA to be illegal with 750w motor, subsequently the company importing an selling them were prosecuted. This being the second successful prosecution for miss selling.

 

https://cyclingindustry.news/mate-bike-pulled-up-by-dvsa-over-high-powered-ebikes-must-recall/

 

The first one.

https://cyclingindustry.news/dvsa-prosecutes-uk-company-illegally-supplying-unrestricted-e-bikes/

Edited September 9, 20223 yr by Nealh

I seem to remember seeing escooters in Halfords displayed with a sign saying for use on private land only. Should they be concerned?

So the overall message is that the sellers need to be more careful with advertising, and as the judge said;

 

"The bikes could be used on private land but that was not made clear at the point of order and delivery"

DVSA’s Market Surveillance Investigator leading the investigation, Sadie Clarke, said: “This is another great result in our work to keep Britain’s roads safe by taking illegal high-powered electric bikes off the roads

 

Fantastic, I'm really pleased Sadie, a result for the 'surveillance investigators' out there, you provided such an important public service, what would we do with out you..

Fantastic, I'm really pleased Sadie, a result for the 'surveillance investigators' out there, you provided such an important public service, what would we do with out you..

 

Yes agreed, but unfortunatly there are not enough of such investigators out there, considering the number of high powered eBikes I see on the road.

 

Some of the high powerd eBikes are dead easy to round up too, just hang around any large takeaway in a city centre and fairly soon an illegal eBike will turn up. They are easy to spot from a distance, the riders put large square food bags on thier backs to warn that they are coming.

Like the war on drugs then? Go after the suppliers... and occasionally user perps will accidentally fall down flights of stairs.

What about all the cars and motorbikes capable of 150mph - oh no wait, they're not illegal are they ? !!!!

What about all the cars and motorbikes capable of 150mph - oh no wait, they're not illegal are they ? !!!!

 

Ah but they are driven by highly skilled operators, trained and tested to prove their high degree of proficiency. One only has to see they way they skim past cyclists and pedestrians at high speeds with only inches to spare to realise the superb degree of co-ordination and roadcraft skills involved, worthy of the highest admiration.

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https://cyclingindustry.news/mate-bike-pulled-up-by-dvsa-over-high-powered-ebikes-must-recall/

 

Beginning of end for all the folk riding motorbikes disguised as pedelecs.

Been saying it years, if you want a motorbike buy one.

There was a bloke out other day who joined me around Lady Bower. His bike had 1kwh of batteries and a 2kw hub motor. He was boasting about 44mph top speed with little pedalling. Still didn't climb up to Lockerbrook farm as easy as my legal (but regularly failing) Giant.

Ah but they are driven by highly skilled operators, trained and tested to prove their high degree of proficiency. One only has to see they way they skim past cyclists and pedestrians at high speeds with only inches to spare to realise the superb degree of co-ordination and roadcraft skills involved, worthy of the highest admiration.

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Fast cars are registered, taxed and insured as such. The bikes in question are pretending to be something they aren't. Yes, there is a little leeway on 250w nominal power even legal pedelecs exploit, but come on. Look on eBay, folk are buying 1500w hub motored bikes and hiding behind pedelec legislation. It could ruin it for everyone.

I know a few peak rangers. Their argument, and it's a good one, why should they have problem and ensuing arguments with folk on 2kw ebikes labelled as 250w. Easier to ban anything with a motor from their paths,which is a distinct possibility. (some already have)

It's been obvious for years we have been unable to put our own house in order, in fact this site has openly aided illegal activity. (read much of advice from esteemed pedelecers building motorbikes and advising about derestricting pedelecs)

and now we are surprised when courts try to enforce what are actually simple and fair limits on pedelecs. 250w and 15.5 mph limit is adequate and sensible for pushbikes. Any more and it becomes something else.

If you want a moped or motorbike buy one, register it, tax it and insure it. Simple. Oh, and keep off any National Park paths. Which is why folk build ebikes in first place. Years ago motorbikes were banned, now with the grey line between pedelecs, ebikes and mx motorbikes many ex mx riders are being attracted to ebikes for that very reason. Build a small electric mx bike, say its a Pedelec and open up miles and miles of countryside. (Bultaco, Suron, Stealth Bomber and a whole host of copies). Canal tow paths are plagued with the damned things, hurtling about at insane speeds.

Edited September 10, 20223 yr by Zlatan

Yes agreed, but unfortunatly there are not enough of such investigators out there, considering the number of high powered eBikes I see on the road.

 

But of course this is the negative of legality. A huge proportion of the e-bikes out there are illegal, either kit builds or dongled and the like. So if we did successfully take them all off the road, the numbers "cycling" would sharply reduce.

 

We only have to look at all those who join here solely and expressly to find out how to derestrict to realise that they don't really want to cycle. They just want a motorcycle they can ride without licence and insurance, so they are not going to ride a legal pedelec needing them to pedal all the time and put in lots of effort on hills.

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Fast cars are registered, taxed and insured as such. The bikes in question are pretending to be something they aren't. Yes, there is a little leeway on 250w nominal power even legal pedelecs exploit, but come on. Look on eBay, folk are buying 1500w hub motored bikes and hiding behind pedelec legislation. It could ruin it for everyone.

I know a few peak rangers. Their argument, and it's a good one, why should they have problem and ensuing arguments with folk on 2kw ebikes labelled as 250w. Easier to ban anything with a motor from their paths,which is a distinct possibility. (some already have)

 

Didn't you see my smiley?

 

As for a "little leeway", you have to be kidding. There are almost no legal pedelecs, they are almost all capable of from 400 to over 700 watts of net power for extended periods, and that vagueness is part of the trouble.

 

It would be much better of the law specified the PEAK permitted power at say 500 or 600 watts to give us roughly what most legal ones have now.

 

Being easily tested for certification or subsequently, that would do away with the imaginary loophole.

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I'm beginning to look into insurance and so on, as I would like to move slightly on from 25km/h and 250W for my next solar vehicle.

 

Extraordinary range in the quotations for a 49cc petrol moped, from £73 from names I've never heard of, to £350 from AA and RAC!

 

Haven't asked any of them about S-pedelec yet.

Didn't you see my smiley?

 

As for a "little leeway", you have to be kidding. There are almost no legal pedelecs, they are almost all capable of from 400 to over 700 watts of net power for extended periods, and that vagueness is part of the trouble.

 

It would be much better of the law specified the PEAK permitted power at say 500 or 600 watts to give us roughly what most legal ones have now.

 

Being easily tested for certification or subsequently, that would do away with the imaginary loophole.

.

I saw a 2008 I think leaflet online a while ago that said a few things about S-pedelec power, and the detail that jumped out at me was that assistance was not allowed to be more than 400% of rider input.

 

That same number was mentioned in the summer by the Reisse and Muller riders I met, as being what their Bosch motors allowed on max assist.

 

Technically unimplementable without torque sensor, so no use on low cost systems, but I like the linking of max power to the rider effort.

It's been obvious for years we have been unable to put our own house in order, in fact this site has openly aided illegal activity. (read much of advice from esteemed pedelecers building motorbikes and advising about derestricting pedelecs

 

The forum rules are quite specific on this;

 

"Pedelecs operates a one account per person policy. You agree to not use the Service to submit or link to any Content which is defamatory, abusive, hateful, threatening, spam or spam-like, likely to offend, contains adult or objectionable content, contains personal information of others, risks copyright infringement, encourages unlawful activity, or otherwise violates any laws."

Wording to me always seems wrong with regard hub motors. It's the controller which dictates power to a hub motor. It's pointless looking at the hub motor itself you can get direct drive hub motors that can use 250W controllers perhaps peaking at 400W to maybe 2500W with a high current controller. It's the same motor but the controller varies. Same issue with geared hub motors to a lesser extent where a 250W hub motor can easily be supplied with a 350W controller or even 500W controller or more. It only makes sense with regard mid-drive motors where the controller is internal to the motor.

 

As I've said many times mid-drives are often peaking well above 600W, sometimes over 700W and with some e-mountain bike Bosch models close to 800W. If wattage is the issue then a huge number of ebikes are illegal even store bought.

 

I feel the issue here is more the 32mph top limit and a huge number of ebikes can be configured to go above 15.5mph, sometimes with a display hack or simple adjustment, sometimes with a dongle and sometimes with a wiring connection.

 

We need stronger legislation for wattage. As nominal or rated is very vague.

 

These 750W ebikes still seem to be for sale although perhaps the private land is more strongly worded now than before.

 

https://www.matebike.uk/products/mate-x-750w-dusty-army-1?variant=39959077978202

 

They claim a range of up to 120Km on a 816Wh battery. If you state average speed is around 30Km that is about 200Wh per hour or 200W. On some Bosch mid-drive e-mountain bikes a 400Wh or maybe 500Wh battery can last as little as 40-45 minutes and cover far less distance when used extensively off-road with lots of steep inclines. Often riders will take a second battery. That is an average of 500-600 Watts per hour. The controller is providing about 22A of current at 36V which is a long way from the nominal 7A at 36V which equals 250W. Obviously the 40-45 minutes is worse case example with a huge amount of inclines and not typical use but shows the motor system is well above 250W.

 

As I said before I would legislate purely for 15.5mph assistant speed and weight limit of the bike perhaps 30kg or less to prevent oversized very dangerous ebikes on paths etc. I personally don't see the point of limiting wattage for hills. You can stop on a pin going up hill and bikes can often be a nuisance on hills because of their low speed. I think ebikes should be allowed to go up hill at 15.5mph assisted and if that means 400W, 500W or even 750W then so be it.

 

I think the sooner we move away from EU legislation the better and move towards legislation that works best for us.

The forum has a speed pedelec's sub forum, all non pedelec related talk should be encompassed within this sub forum.

 

I tossed up whether to post this on this sub forum or the S ped one, but decided on this one as the sellers are tryig to disguise/mis sell as a general ebike and as such the main subject is regarding DVSA prosecuting.

Edited September 10, 20223 yr by Nealh

I'm beginning to look into insurance and so on, as I would like to move slightly on from 25km/h and 250W for my next solar vehicle.

 

Extraordinary range in the quotations for a 49cc petrol moped, from £73 from names I've never heard of, to £350 from AA and RAC!

 

Haven't asked any of them about S-pedelec yet.

 

Upping the power/speed to S pedelec type bikes will lose you the right to use most of the quite offroad tracks and bridle ways that can be used.

I saw a 2008 I think leaflet online a while ago that said a few things about S-pedelec power, and the detail that jumped out at me was that assistance was not allowed to be more than 400% of rider input.

 

Reference 2008, S-pedelec maximum rated continuous power was increased from 250 watts to 500 watts at one point, which I believe was after 2008. That was driven by the fact that 250 watts couldn't realistically drive much above 20 mph, well short of their 28 mph legal limit.

 

In practice the S-pedelec market has largely settled on 350 watts, being the best compromise for performance and range.

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As I said before I would legislate purely for 15.5mph assistant speed and weight limit of the bike perhaps 30kg or less to prevent oversized very dangerous ebikes on paths etc.

 

Speed limit yes, but definitely not a weight limit. We've only recently got rid of them to allow cargo bikes and pedicabs which we want to encourage.

 

I think ebikes should be allowed to go up hill at 15.5mph assisted and if that means 400W, 500W or even 750W then so be it.

 

The European parliament tried to get the EU Commission to get rid of all power limits, leaving that to designers, and just have the strict assist speed limit.

 

That would have done the trick, but the Commission rejected the proposal. A pity, since being able to have much more power would also be ideal for cargo bikes and pedicabs.

 

I think the sooner we move away from EU legislation the better and move towards legislation that works best for us.

 

No way, just look at the history. Our pedelec laws have always been very harsh and it is only thanks to the EU that they were eased so much.

 

We are still very harsh, just look at the refusal to accept S-pedelecs, the refusal get rid of driving licences for low powered quadricycles, the refusal to allow 16 or even 14 year olds driving low powered quadricycles, the idiotic minimum age of 14 years to ride a pedelec.

 

The last thing we need is to let the UK parliament anywhere near pedelec law.

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The forum rules are quite specific on this;

 

"Pedelecs operates a one account per person policy. You agree to not use the Service to submit or link to any Content which is defamatory, abusive, hateful, threatening, spam or spam-like, likely to offend, contains adult or objectionable content, contains personal information of others, risks copyright infringement, encourages unlawful activity, or otherwise violates any laws."

Having rules and enforcing them are very different. (apparently both on site and generally with regard sticking to nominal 250w, max aided speed of 15.5 mph or even having a throttle.)

Found attached in about 15 seconds of searching. Premise of erntire thread was OP wanted a derestricted pedelec.(a moped masquerading as a pedelec, to avoid registration, tax and insurance)

 

We can justify it however we wish. Simple fact is a vast proportion of "pedelecs" are simply not, some blatantly exceeding 250w nominal..and some utilising power way past

15.5 mph.

Arguing its acceptable because legal crank drives see 600 w maximums (I, ve seen 650 on mine) is completely missing point. There are a group of lads around here often seen going up dual carriageway at 40mph..I somehow doubt my Giant even when pushing out its 700w would get anywhere near. My peaks (most I, ve seen are 648 W) are exactly that. Instaneous peaks for tenths of seconds. Interestingly I have never averaged over 250w usage on any ride, even when 500w maximums have been experienced. There are folk on here boasting about 40 mph capability...and chap last week was telling me he could flatten his 1kwh of batteries in 45 mins.???

Time we all took responsibility and stopped justifying this blatant deliberate muddying of the rules so many folk can ride uninsured, untaxed, unregistered motorbikes.

If you want a motorbike, go and buy one but register, tax and insure it. Simple. But get off National Park paths on ebikes. Pushbike and pedelecs fine.

The electrical nature for pedelecs is assistance and not replacement.

Edited September 10, 20223 yr by Zlatan

The electrical nature for pedelecs is assistance and not replacement.

 

Indeed, and why our legal name for them is EAPC:

 

Electric Assist Pedal Cycles

 

And in the EU, EPAC, almost but not quite the same thing.

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Upping the power/speed to S pedelec type bikes will lose you the right to use most of the quite offroad tracks and bridle ways that can be used.

I'll have to become a two or more bike family!

 

In the back of my mind is reducing my journey time on a regular 430 mile trip from five to three or even two days. Can't be done within pedelec parameters.

 

I take two days when I drive it, so would solve my one remaining 'need' for fossil fuel transport.

What about all the cars and motorbikes capable of 150mph - oh no wait, they're not illegal are they ? !!!!

 

It's fortunate driving tests include drag races.

I'll have to become a two or more bike family!

 

In the back of my mind is reducing my journey time on a regular 430 mile trip from five to three or even two days. Can't be done within pedelec parameters.

 

I take two days when I drive it, so would solve my one remaining 'need' for fossil fuel transport.

 

My Homcom trailer manual warns: "Dangerous over 10mph". The idea of towing a heavy trailer using a bicycle at 40mph+ fills me with horror. What's the weight of your solar trailer, and what proportion is that weight to the weight of your entire ensemble? What type of bicycle axle is the trailer attached to? The cargo weight limit of Carry Freedom trailers when attached to QR bicycle axles, is 50kg. I wouldn't fscking do it.