drowing in options

matthewslack

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Nov 26, 2021
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An example, rather than a recommendation. I know it is another £400, but this has 75Nm Bosch Performance Line motor, basic but effective Shimano MT200 disc brakes, same 500Wh battery, and Shimano Cues wide range 9 speed 11-46T gears. Cues is designed for longer life on ebikes, and the 9 speed is a clever mix of close higher ratios and more widely spaced lower ratios - with a pretty good lowest gear. All sizes in stock, and a low step frame.

 

AndyBike

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Nov 8, 2020
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but I don't think you would regret a bit extra for disc brakes,
It's the only part of a bike designed to keep you alive. Brakes, especially when weight/momentum is concerned can become overwhelmed and will not stop you in an emergency situation.
Rim brakes are fine of course for pottering to the shops or along the road, but in that sudden grab both brakes scenario rim brakes are going to do naff all.

Even worse in the wet.
 
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saneagle

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Oct 10, 2010
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I sort of assumed there would be a practical stall threshold torque for a controlled motor system, with max current from the given battery at min reasonable rotation speed. Near that point the system would be non linear and the motor and control components would get hot, wasting power and risking damage. Otherwise what does the spec mean?

Perhaps a rational decision is impossible with the limited information provided by suppliers on the many factors involved :-(.

Just tried the scales, for the first time in years: 15 st 4 lb == 97 kg. So within the 130 kg total weight, but say 25% heavier (bike+rider) than a normal height moderately fit animal? e.g. a bike tested on 25% slope should be ok on 19% with me. I will be happy if I can take a 1:10 without walking.
At 97 kg, you'd probably be better with a 48v system. Woosh do a 48v TSDZ8 kit, which will probably do everything you want. You can get a donor bike off Facebook or NextDoor ads if you don't already have one. Any bike with a stand bottom bracket, triangle frame and disc brakes would be good. Forks, bars, pedals, saddle, gears and brakes can all be changed if you don't like what's on it. You can tune the bike to your needs, which you can't really do on a new OEM bike because of warranty issues. The thing is, when you have a motor, you don't need all those special gears and expensive lightweight stuff. You can concentrate on just the comfort.

Apart from that, there are plenty of nice 48v bikes with hub-motors on Ebay and Amazon, but make sure that it says 250w motor. A hub-motor at 48v will generally out-perform a 36v crank motor for normal hill-climbing, especially when you're 97kg. A 36v crank-drive can do it, but it can make the ride a bit boring because it'll climb so slow. I'm around that weight, so I have a lot of experience of what works and what doesn't. At 36v, you need around 20 amps, which some of the OEM high torque crank-drives have, but not the cooking versions.
 

Peter.Bridge

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Apr 19, 2023
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At 97 kg, you'd probably be better with a 48v system. Woosh do a 48v TSDZ8 kit, which will probably do everything you want. You can get a donor bike off Facebook or NextDoor ads if you don't already have one. Any bike with a stand bottom bracket, triangle frame and disc brakes would be good. Forks, bars, pedals, saddle, gears and brakes can all be changed if you don't like what's on it. You can tune the bike to your needs, which you can't really do on a new OEM bike because of warranty issues. The thing is, when you have a motor, you don't need all those special gears and expensive lightweight stuff. You can concentrate on just the comfort.

Apart from that, there are plenty of nice 48v bikes with hub-motors on Ebay and Amazon, but make sure that it says 250w motor. A hub-motor at 48v will generally out-perform a 36v crank motor for normal hill-climbing, especially when you're 97kg. A 36v crank-drive can do it, but it can make the ride a bit boring because it'll climb so slow. I'm around that weight, so I have a lot of experience of what works and what doesn't. At 36v, you need around 20 amps, which some of the OEM high torque crank-drives have, but not the cooking versions.
I have followed lots of forum advice in general and @saneagle 's advice in particular !
I am a similar weight and have a 48v rear hub bike and a 48v mid drive bike - either would be excellent. I slightly prefer the hub drive for road use as the motor power isn't going through the chain line and cassette from a wear / smoothness of gear changes point of view (although for very steep hills the mid drive is better)

I have been up Carlton bank in North Yorkshire on both bikes and they have been fine


I would echo the advice about getting a suitable bike off Facebook / gumtree with either hydraulic disc brakes or cable disc brakes, then convert to hydraulic and then adding an e-bike kit

The Bosch motored bikes would also be a good choice, but I enjoy converting bikes and you can customise to suit and are very good value.

I did a 48v TSDZ8 conversion for my sister and it is a very powerful motor (she has to wait for all her friends at the top of hills !)
 
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stuartmacg

Finding my (electric) wheels
Mar 29, 2025
11
4
An example, rather than a recommendation. I know it is another £400, but this has 75Nm Bosch Performance Line motor, basic but effective Shimano MT200 disc brakes, same 500Wh battery, and Shimano Cues wide range 9 speed 11-46T gears. Cues is designed for longer life on ebikes, and the 9 speed is a clever mix of close higher ratios and more widely spaced lower ratios - with a pretty good lowest gear. All sizes in stock, and a low step frame.

A Kalkhoff Entice 3 move for £1999 looks similar? Bosch performance line smart 75 Nm, 9 gear ratios, disc brakes, all frame sizes, from vansprint.co.uk.
 

thelarkbox

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 23, 2023
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A Kalkhoff Entice 3 move for £1999 looks similar? Bosch performance line smart 75 Nm, 9 gear ratios, disc brakes, all frame sizes, from vansprint.co.uk.
What are the maintenance requirements for any warranties you value with the bike?
Is the motor diy serviceable at all?
how much will a spare/replacement battery cost? will one be available in 3-4 years when you can expect a quality battery to start showing signs of age? and how much of a mark up will the form factor/coms system cost you, 100% 200% more?

Buy generic and avoid such unnecessary complications.. a diy motor install isnt that big a job

Imho the options are spend once and live with the bolt on aesthetic, Or spend big and often and buy into the sleek built in dream, but be prepared to install a few apps and pay a few subs too.
 

matthewslack

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 26, 2021
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A Kalkhoff Entice 3 move for £1999 looks similar? Bosch performance line smart 75 Nm, 9 gear ratios, disc brakes, all frame sizes, from vansprint.co.uk.
On the face of it, very similar. They have lots of bikes listed, not all in all sizes, so just double check size, warranty, all the basics before committing.
 

stuartmacg

Finding my (electric) wheels
Mar 29, 2025
11
4
What are the maintenance requirements for any warranties you value with the bike?
Is the motor diy serviceable at all?
how much will a spare/replacement battery cost? will one be available in 3-4 years when you can expect a quality battery to start showing signs of age? and how much of a mark up will the form factor/coms system cost you, 100% 200% more?

Buy generic and avoid such unnecessary complications.. a diy motor install isnt that big a job

Imho the options are spend once and live with the bolt on aesthetic, Or spend big and often and buy into the sleek built in dream, but be prepared to install a few apps and pay a few subs too.
I have looked at 48v TSDZ8 kit data on line briefly. It would take me some time to get familiar with the terms and evaluate. It would clearly be fun to do and a lot cheaper than buying a similar spec bike, but it sounds like the power output (>250W) and the availability of a throttle mode would make the result illegal on the road in the UK and EU.
 

stuartmacg

Finding my (electric) wheels
Mar 29, 2025
11
4
I have looked at 48v TSDZ8 kit data on line briefly. It would take me some time to get familiar with the terms and evaluate.

It would clearly be fun to do and a lot cheaper than buying a similar spec bike, but it sounds like the power output (>250W) and the availability of a throttle mode would make the result illegal on the road in the UK and EU.
 

Peter.Bridge

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Apr 19, 2023
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I have looked at 48v TSDZ8 kit data on line briefly. It would take me some time to get familiar with the terms and evaluate. It would clearly be fun to do and a lot cheaper than buying a similar spec bike, but it sounds like the power output (>250W) and the availability of a throttle mode would make the result illegal on the road in the UK and EU.
No, the throttle is optional and, if you buy from Woosh the motor is rated at 250w by the manufacturer and this is marked on the motor (similarly the Bosch motors are way over 250w peak power but are rated as 250w max continuous power)

Just make sure in the settings to set max assist speed to 15.5 mph
 
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thelarkbox

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Aug 23, 2023
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I have looked at 48v TSDZ8 kit data on line briefly. It would take me some time to get familiar with the terms and evaluate. It would clearly be fun to do and a lot cheaper than buying a similar spec bike, but it sounds like the power output (>250W) and the availability of a throttle mode would make the result illegal on the road in the UK and EU.
Not an expert but when it comes to the regs.. Official UK Motor rating is the only metric relevant no mater how its marketed in other regions. and woosh have the paperwork for their motors,
my standard kit rear hub drive can expend upto and over 1000w but its rated and stamped 250w

A throttle only active when pedaling is ok, and if in doubt it unplugs..

and speed limits as said above can be set..

If kit considered outside the regs were to be suggested to you it would certainly be followed by warnings if not by the poster of the suggestion but the first other member to take an interest..
 

saneagle

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 10, 2010
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I have looked at 48v TSDZ8 kit data on line briefly. It would take me some time to get familiar with the terms and evaluate. It would clearly be fun to do and a lot cheaper than buying a similar spec bike, but it sounds like the power output (>250W) and the availability of a throttle mode would make the result illegal on the road in the UK and EU.
The 48v TSDZ8 is completely legal. Woosh only sells legal stuff. The law is on the rating of the motor, not the power output, so you can get as much power as you need as long as the motor is marked 250w by the manufacturer. Bosch motors take about 900 watts from the battery, which gives an output of around 630 watts.
 

matthewslack

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 26, 2021
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The 48v TSDZ8 is completely legal. Woosh only sells legal stuff. The law is on the rating of the motor, not the power output, so you can get as much power as you need as long as the motor is marked 250w by the manufacturer. Bosch motors take about 900 watts from the battery, which gives an output of around 630 watts.
Clarification: TSDZ8 bought anywhere except Woosh is NOT legal, because manufacturer rates it at 750W.

You'll likely be fine with a Woosh 250W marked TSDZ8, but one day it is possible a court will be asked to judge whether apparently identical motors can apparently be derated just by marking.
 

Peter.Bridge

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Apr 19, 2023
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Clarification: TSDZ8 bought anywhere except Woosh is NOT legal, because manufacturer rates it at 750W.

You'll likely be fine with a Woosh 250W marked TSDZ8, but one day it is possible a court will be asked to judge whether apparently identical motors can apparently be derated just by marking.
I don't see the difference with "250w " rated Bosch motors that can reach 28 mph :

It they were having a crackdown surely it is more likely they would go after Bosch because of the numbers of motors involved ?

The power rating is defined in law, different countries have different laws defining how the motor power should be rated. Compliance is the manufacturers responsibility
 
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matthewslack

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Nov 26, 2021
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I don't see the difference with "250w " rated Bosch motors that can reach 28 mph :

It they were having a crackdown surely it is more likely they would go after Bosch because of the numbers of motors involved ?

The power rating is defined in law, different countries have different laws defining how the motor power should be rated. Compliance is the manufacturers responsibility
Bosch would need to answer for themselves. Some of the differences I see are:

No throttle on a Bosch, entirely controlled by a sophisticated algorithm and accurate, fast responding torque sensor. Higher motor power is only available with higher rider power.

No means to override top speed other than dealer software (dongles excluded).

Quality of control algorithm effectively cuts off assistance at 25km/h.

A customer buying a 250W marked TSDZ8 is probably entitled to place legal 'reliance' on the information provided by the manufacturer and supplier, so probably has nothing to worry about, as long as throttle and cutoff speed are correctly set, although the ease with which those settings can be changed may be a problem.

The fundamental problem is the fact that the power test used in EN15194 does not test for maximum rated power, despite the test result being treated as that. The way the standard is treated at present does not require any curiosity on the part of the tester. If the motor 'passes the test' which simply means 'does not overheat' on a test run at 250W, then it can be claimed to have a 250W maximum continuous power rating.

There is no requirement to test at higher powers to see if it passes. If a test run at 500W was passed, then the motor would have to be rated at 500W. But the classic blind eye approach in current use does not require that test to be performed.

An expert witness in a theoretical trial one day might be more curious. They might start with a test at say 1000W, anticipating failure, and then work down in 100W increments until the motor passes. That way a true figure would be known.

In the present situation there is nothing to stop a 10kW motor being claimed as 250W.

My view is that change will come, probably not soon, and probably as part of a reevaluation as bike numbers and incident/accident numbers grow.

Until then it is as well for users to know that the spirit of EN15194 is being widely flouted.
 

saneagle

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Oct 10, 2010
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Clarification: TSDZ8 bought anywhere except Woosh is NOT legal, because manufacturer rates it at 750W.

You'll likely be fine with a Woosh 250W marked TSDZ8, but one day it is possible a court will be asked to judge whether apparently identical motors can apparently be derated just by marking.
Complete rubbish. The manufacturer has rated those motors at 250w, so they're completely legal. There's never been any regulation about how much power a motor can make.

Look at Bosch motors. The first 250w ones went 25km/hr and made 40Nmm torque. The latest ones make 85Nm and still go 25km/hr. Power = torque x speed. The latest one is therefore making more than double the power of the first 250w one. Do you think some court is going to rule that they're all illegal along with every Yamaha and Shimano motor?
 

stuartmacg

Finding my (electric) wheels
Mar 29, 2025
11
4
An example, rather than a recommendation. I know it is another £400, but this has 75Nm Bosch Performance Line motor, basic but effective Shimano MT200 disc brakes, same 500Wh battery, and Shimano Cues wide range 9 speed 11-46T gears. Cues is designed for longer life on ebikes, and the 9 speed is a clever mix of close higher ratios and more widely spaced lower ratios - with a pretty good lowest gear. All sizes in stock, and a low step frame.

Finally selected and ordered:

Cube Touring Hybrid One 625 2024 Electric Bike, from Winstanleys (good sale price) (same spec except bigger battery).

The Kalkhoff in the right size disappeared from the on line sale, and anyway the Cube offering looks a better deal.

Thanks all for advice and discussion.
 

Peter.Bridge

Esteemed Pedelecer
Apr 19, 2023
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Finally selected and ordered:

Cube Touring Hybrid One 625 2024 Electric Bike, from Winstanleys (good sale price) (same spec except bigger battery).

The Kalkhoff in the right size disappeared from the on line sale, and anyway the Cube offering looks a better deal.

Thanks all for advice and discussion.
Looks great - seems like a good price - hydraulic disc brakes, thats a good size battery too. May you have many years of happy pedelecing !
 
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thelarkbox

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Aug 23, 2023
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Finally selected and ordered:

Cube Touring Hybrid One 625 2024 Electric Bike, from Winstanleys (good sale price) (same spec except bigger battery).

The Kalkhoff in the right size disappeared from the on line sale, and anyway the Cube offering looks a better deal.

Thanks all for advice and discussion.
Happy pedalling - enjoy..
 
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matthewslack

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 26, 2021
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That battery sets you up very well for long trips. Spring is here. The time for talk is over: time to ride.
 
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