Dowsing for Water

[tillson]

Good morning and apologies for not contributing to the BREXIT thread for some time.

Does anyone have any thoughts on water dowsing? This is basically walking around holding two sticks, one in each hand, and if they cross you are standing above water.

The reason I ask is as follows:

A few weeks ago, I saw a man in a fluorescent jacket standing on my drive dowsing for water with two sticks. He was from Severn Trent Water (that is official and now confirmed) and told me that the supply pipe from the street to my house is leaking. He went on to say that the leak was beneath where he was standing and that it was 300 litres per hour.

Initially I dismissed him as being a twat, but I then to my horror, I realised that he was deadly serious. I asked how he knew the magnitude of the leak, to which he replied that he had listened to it and produced a metal rod with a wooden bobbin attached at the other end. My wife was in the shower at the time (a pumped device from a header tank with a shower head the size of a dustbin lid and side jets too), but he seemed unconcerned. I am not a Severn Trent Water man, but logic tells me to isolate the house at the incoming stop-cock to ensure any water flow is from the supply pipe via a leak.

I can sort of accept the metal rod / bobbin apparatus for hearing water flowing through a pipe, but I'm having great difficulty with the dowsing sticks. I always thought that this was wizardry born from the same customs as horse hair and warts. All of my research points to dowsing having the same probability of success as pure chance and all controlled testing has reached the same conclusion.

I have now received a letter from Severn Trent entitled Supporting you to repair leaks to your water pipe. If you strip away the BS in the letter, it's basically a threatening communication stating that if I don't get it fixed within 28 days, they will come and do it and send me the bill. Not supportive at all.

I'm aware of my responsibilities for repairing a leak, if one exists and I have insurance to cover the work, but I am far from happy about how this is being handled. Severn Trent's staff robustly and forcefully defend water dowsing and have told me that it works in 99% of all leak detecting. I simply can't accept this and won't embark on an expensive (to my insurers) civil engineering project on such unscientific evidence. Severn Trent are putting on a display of total indifference, saying why should I be so bothered, the insurance is paying. This is not good enough.

Sorry to rant on, I just want to know if I am correct to dismiss water dowsing and witchcraft and not to be relied upon?

Cheers

 

[tommie]

I had an underground leaking pipe at the back of my property a while back, a young lad from the local Water Service appeared with that long metal pipe stethoscope thing and in no time at all zeroed in where it was.
Now i don`t know how your guy can tell the rate of flow unless there's a meter outside the property recording the loss - i think he was taking a bit of a guess there!
The dousing thing is pretty accurate too for some people, have you tried it?
I can do it with a forked ash or hazel twig, you need to hold it outstretched with palms up, where there`s water it will fly up towards you.
How/why that happens i haven`t a clue!

 

[tillson]

I had an underground leaking pipe at the back of my property a while back, a young lad from the local Water Service appeared with that long metal pipe stethoscope thing and in no time at all zeroed in where it was.
Now i don`t know how your guy can tell the rate of flow unless there's a meter outside the property recording the loss - i think he was taking a bit of a guess there!
The dousing thing is pretty accurate too for some people, have you tried it?
I can do it with a forked ash or hazel twig, you need to hold it outstretched with palms up, where there`s water it will fly up towards you.
How/why that happens i haven`t a clue!

Thanks, I can reason why the stethoscope works, but like you don't know how an accurate flow rate can be determined. There is / was no water meter in use at all.

I'm still not convinced by the Dowsing, but I have never tried it. I am just going on what I have read. The source of my information seems pretty non-biased and the conclusion is that it doesn't work any better than pure chance. Who knows?

 

[oldtom]

Fascinating story, 'Tillson'! Glad to know you're still around after that lengthy hiatus in your forum contributions - you really haven't missed much on the 'Brexit' issue, I can assure you.

I'm sure the answer to the 'divining' mystery lies in this very forum and I can think of at least one bike seller who will have chapter and verse on it!

Such mysteries occur on an almost daily basis nowadays in my life. Whether it's FB reading my mind and firing up outlets on my FB home page selling things I research online or strange people ringing to assure me I must have had PPI in the last twenty years and offering to help me secure a huge payout. Then there is the caller who has heard of the traffic collision in which my car was damaged recently and explaining how their company can help me with my claim and I almost forgot the chap in Nigeria who needs me to help get money out of a bank there but needs my details, etc....ad infinitum.

Anyway, welcome back to the comedy show about the UK possibly joining the lower division in pan-European trading....or not.....maybe.....I'm sure you get the picture! Elsewhere, I hope your family matters resolved themselves satisfactorily as such things are of far greater importance than any thread on a bicycle forum

Regards,
Tom

 

[flecc]

I would certainly challenge the water compny in the same circumstances, and refuse to have any work done without proof of a leak. Dowsing is not that proof, since theres not a shred of scientific evidence that it works. It might do, but might do isn't evidence for spending anyone's money.

Coincidentally we have a substantial leak in a long pipe run to a pool in our local nature reserve, but the East Surrey Water Company men tell us there's no way to trace it, other than digging it up at intervals to determine which stretch it's in and isolate it by stages.
.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

I was sort of believing it, but I was thinking that when you get to the bit in the story about having to pay for something, then I'll stop believing it. There it was at the end.

 

[EddiePJ]

Could you not turn your stop cock off in the house, and then listen yourself to gauge if there is a leak.
Clearly having a water meter is the easiest way to test it, and maybe you could request that a meter is fitted. Depending upon you water use, a meter might possibly reduce your annual outgoings, and as far as I am aware, they are free to have installed.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

They normally fit the meter in the house. You're responsible for everything downstream of the cock. It sounds like the leak is supposed to be between the cock and the house.

 

[flecc]

In my Thames Water company area the meters are usually installed outside at the external stopcock. Between the meter and home internal stopcock it's the householder responsibility for repairs and all water usage, so leaks cost them.

The same in that East Surrey reserve I mentioned above as having a leak. When we run the water to fill the pool, we end up paying double since the leak matches the delivery rate at the pool.
.

 

[EddiePJ]

They normally fit the meter in the house. You're responsible for everything downstream of the cock. It sounds like the leak is supposed to be between the cock and the house.

Interesting, as they fit the meter at the boundry here, and I have yet to have worked anywhere where the mains stop cock is within the curtilage of the property.

 

[Nealh]

I have tried dowsing and it works and just not for water.
The most simple and easiest set up is a pair of empty plastic Biro outers and a pair of straightened coat hangers bent at 90 degrees at one end leaving a 4 or 5 " tail. Slide these into the Biro outers ensuring that the can swing freely, to test and if you know where a buried water source is holding them with arms straight ahead of you and walk towards said source and they will mark the spot when the hanger arms cross freely.
At the local association apiary they wanted to do some digging work and one of the older members mentioned that a water supply was very nearby under the ground, so we put the work off and the following week I dowsed the supply route using my Biro's and coat hangers.
When bees swarm it is said they cluster on invisible magnetic lay lines, using dowsing techniques gives the same results also the same for where cats like to lay. Even indoors cats often prefer a certain spot or two dowsing indicates the invisible lay line and it is often occurs where they choose.

 

[EddiePJ]

I have tried dowsing and it works and just not for water.
The most simple and easiest set up is a pair of empty plastic Biro outers and a pair of straightened coat hangers bent at 90 degrees at one end leaving a 4 or 5 " tail. Slide these into the Biro outers ensuring that the can swing freely, holding them with arms straight ahead of you and walk towards any buried source and they will mark the spot when the hanger arms cross freely.
When bees swarm it is said they cluster on invisible magnetic lay lines, using dowsing techniques gives the same results also the same for where cats like to lay. Even indoors cats often prefer a certain spot or two dowsing indicates the invisible lay line and it is often occurs where they choose.

Have you ever come across a bee keeper called Gerald, from Uckfield? He used to use dowsing rods, and set lay lines all the time.

An odd but very intriguing guy.

 

[Trevormonty]

Modern Leak detection companies use electronic equipment. Can tell distance from monitoring point to a <1meter over 20-50m.
Works best on metal pipes.
Combined with pipe/metal detector leak location can be very accurate, which is critical as digging holes is expensive.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Interesting, as they fit the meter at the boundry here, and I have yet to have worked anywhere where the mains stop cock is within the curtilage of the property.

I think people are misunderstanding what I wrote. The stopcocks that the water company use are outside the property. Anything downsteam of that is your responsibility. Sometimes you find them on the driveway. They have to be outside otherwise they wouldn't be able to shut you off when you don't pay. All our meters around here and in my last house were next to the internal stop-cock. That's the one you shut off when you want to remove a radiator or tap. I guess that they could put the meter anywhere between the two cocks, but it needs to be somewhere where you and they can conveniently read it. Mine can be read through the outside wall, so I see the numbers on the inside, but they can somehow get a reading from the outside. Strangely, I must have had the meter for 20 years, but I've never seen the guy read it, yet there's always a plausible reading on the bills.

 

[Nealh]

Have you ever come across a bee keeper called Gerald, from Uckfield? He used to use dowsing rods, and set lay lines all the time.

An odd but very intriguing guy.

We did have a Gerald but couldn't say. Most beeks are odd or I should rephrase a bit eccentric .

Then again there are probably a few eccentrics on this forum .

 

[EddiePJ]

You would remember Gerald if you had ever met him. I'm going back to 1982 when I was just 16yrs old.

Because of his teeth, I gave him the nickname him Gnaw Gnaw, and he looked like Catweazle. Pretty much your average bee keeper really.

I was always fascinated because he had about 60 hives all told, yet the potential for him to die was there if he was ever stung, but the odd bit was that he never wore any protective clothing. For some weird reason he just had a way with bees. Quite an amazing guy really, and I would presume long dead from either old age or being stung!

 

[flecc]

All our meters around here and in my last house were next to the internal stop-cock.

Our Thames Water meters for many years have been all in one stopcock and meter units, installed in the pavement outside at the property boundary. That's a good positioning since it make it easy to see if there's a leak in the pipe from outside when the internal stopcock is shut off.

Cutting off a supply is by removing the meter head insert with impeller and replacing it with a plain insert, blocking the water path.
.

 

[Wicky]

Get the claimed 'dowser' back and offer to be his manager for the James Randi One Million Dollar Paranormal Challenge for a percentage (that should cover your leakage bill)...

 

[jdallan]

25 years ago, at our previous house with a large gravel parking area, we needed the South of Scotland Electricity Board to carry out out some upgrades. They accurately located the underground cable by dowsing using 2 lengths of fence wire bent at right angles. When we expressed our surprise at their technique we were informed that "anyone can do it." This proved to be untrue. We found that my wife could get results, with the wires reacting positively, however I never got as much as a twitch out of them. I'm sure there is something in it however it doesn't work for me.

Jim

 

[tillson]

Thank you for all the replies.

As far as dowsing goes, opinion on here seems to be inconclusive. From the reading on the subject that I have done, the official scientific conclusion is that dowsing yields the same probability of finding water as pure chance. For that reason, I have written to Severn Trent to inform them that I refuse to undertake any rectification work based on their investigation so far. Even though I have insurance, I think it is unacceptable to ask the insurance company to pay for work based on such flimsy evidence.

For me to be convinced that the supply pipe to my house is leaking, I will need to see the stop-cock at the house shut off, effectively eliminating any usage within the house, and then a flow meter attached to the supply valve on the pavement. I think that this is a fair and reasonable request.

When I spoke to Severn Trent on the phone earlier this week, I was expecting them to backtrack over the Dowsing issue and say they use it to complement other techniques. Quite the reverse, they were adamant that it works and they use it in 99% of leak detection cases! I was very surprised by this news and also relieved that I was recording the conversation.

When I pionted out that every official investigation into Dowsing, and every official test conducted under controlled conditions had revealed that Dowsing is no more accurate than pure chance, the response was equally breathtaking. The person said, " I'm sorry that you don't have the level of scientific proof that you think is necessary." The more I think about that remark, the more hideous it becomes.

Officially, and I think the law would look at it this way, Dowsing does not work. It's no better than random chance. Officially, Dowsing is no more accurate than flipping a coin, heads-there is water beneath your feet, tails-there is not. 50% of the time, the coin will be accurate and if you want to believe in the coin, you will convince yourself that it yields a greater accuracy than 50%. I believe that this exact same process is at work within Severn Trent Water. It's an outrage.

If I didn't think that Ofwat was a useless & powerless organisation set up to pay MP's chums fat salaries and to find employment for the unemployable, I would write to them. However I fear it would be a waste of printer toner.