Dogs again

[SRS]

Riding back from work this evening on an empty section of cycle lane on Brighton seafront.
20 mph with tail wind and electrics switched off.

At the very moment passed a parked camper the owners dog leapt from the camper door straight under my front wheel.

I did not even know that the camper door was open and had zero time to react.

The instant I hit the dog, my front wheel turned 90 and I hit the tarmac. Winded, it took some moments to get to my feet with the aid of some bystanders.

At 14 stone with a 20kg rucksack, that hurt. Much skin lost on knee, fingers, elbow and shoulder. Shirt ripped.

Landed on my shoulder, chest and head and at this moment I cannot draw a full breath without great pain. Saddle has a small hole, bar ends damaged but all else seems ok.

It happened that the police saw the incident and took down details from both parties. The guy was very apologetic, apparently renting the camper along with his wife for a holiday with their baby.

I explained that I did not want money, he did offer. Just be more careful in the future I said. What can you say when something like this happens? It was was of those unfortunate accidents.

Anyway, we'll see if I am a stiff as a board in the morning and if my ribs are unbroken. The hardest fall I have ever had on any bike.

A little note for Tillson, I did hit my head on the ground bloody hard and my helmet did an excellent job with hardly a scratch. I was soooo glad I was wearing it.

 

[oldtom]

....and the dog?

Tom

 

[SRS]

....and the dog?

Tom

No idea, it was gone by the time I had got to my feet. Didn't see it again.

Someone said it had ran off through the traffic. Hopefully it lives on.

 

[tillson]

A little note for Tillson, I did hit my head on the ground bloody hard and my helmet did an excellent job with hardly a scratch. I was soooo glad I was wearing it.

Well I'm pleased to hear that you haven't sustained any serious injuries and I hope that you feel more comfortable soon.

I'm not going to rise to the, "helmet bait" that subject has been discussed at length already and the debate has revealed wide ranging opinions.

More importantly / interesting, if it were possible to re-create the exact same circumstances which you encountered 100 times with 100 different riders, I wonder how many of the 100 would fall victim to the dog? Hazard perception varies greatly between individuals and I wouldn't be surprised to hear that you have fallen of your bike previously, or to learn that you have had another, "accident" at sometime in the future.

I regularly read accident reports in order to try and improve my hazard perception. It never fails to surprises me how often there is an element of denial from the author. Phrases such as, "it came out of nowhere" or "I stood no chance of avoiding it" are classics. I have noticed that the title of this thread is, "Dogs again". Does this imply that you have mentally absolved yourself of all blame and placed all responsibility for your injuries with the dog and it's owners? And, does "again" mean that there have been other instances of you running over dogs and hurting yourself as a result?

If you are interested a couple of good aviation safety publications may be worth reading. GASIL & CHIRP are the most popular and some of the reports make you think about how you can modify your own behaviour in general so as to avoid future Injury.

Hope the dog was ok.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Yes, that's a good strategy and l proved it works. I got run into the curb by a bus that had just overtaken me, which immediately swung to the left to turn right. I grazed my hand and knee quite badly. I modified my behaviour by not riding my bike for ten years, and, during that time, I didn't have a single cycle accident. When I finally got back on a bike (electric now), I was riding along a cycle path when a twig got caught in yhe front wheel and made a ticking noise. I immediately started to slow down to remove it, but it got hold of the front of the mudguard and dragged it back on itself to jam between the wheel and the forks sending me straight over the handlebars to land on my helmet protected head. I've now modified my behaviour again by not riding on cycle paths. So far, it's working because no more twigs have jammed my wheel, which is just as well because I'd hate to have to ride without a wheel.

 

[Wicky]

I don't ride my m/c on roads near trees to avoid an accident like this…

 

[flecc]

Sarcasm doesn't in any way offset the truth in Tillson's argument. It is an easily demonstrable fact that hazard perception and attitudes to risk vary greatly, and that risks of having accidents can be substantially reduced if one is open minded enough to realise what can be achieved.

My own case proves it beyond question.

 

[mountainsport]

Riding back from work this evening on an empty section of cycle lane on Brighton seafront.
20 mph with tail wind and electrics switched off.

At the very moment passed a parked camper the owners dog leapt from the camper door straight under my front wheel.

I did not even know that the camper door was open and had zero time to react.

The instant I hit the dog, my front wheel turned 90 and I hit the tarmac. Winded, it took some moments to get to my feet with the aid of some bystanders.

At 14 stone with a 20kg rucksack, that hurt. Much skin lost on knee, fingers, elbow and shoulder. Shirt ripped.

Landed on my shoulder, chest and head and at this moment I cannot draw a full breath without great pain. Saddle has a small hole, bar ends damaged but all else seems ok.

It happened that the police saw the incident and took down details from both parties. The guy was very apologetic, apparently renting the camper along with his wife for a holiday with their baby.

I explained that I did not want money, he did offer. Just be more careful in the future I said. What can you say when something like this happens? It was was of those unfortunate accidents.

Anyway, we'll see if I am a stiff as a board in the morning and if my ribs are unbroken. The hardest fall I have ever had on any bike.

A little note for Tillson, I did hit my head on the ground bloody hard and my helmet did an excellent job with hardly a scratch. I was soooo glad I was wearing it.

Sorry to hear SRS hope you are ok, It is not nice to fall off your bike ive been there. The other thing you need to look out for are foxes running out in the street. I hope that your beautiful daughter is kissing you to make you feel much better. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

MS.

 

[neptune]

@SRS. Sorry to hear about your accident, and I hope you soon recover. When it comes to riding, it is much like any other human activity. It is inevitable that some will be more skillful at riding, observation and accident prevention than others. However good we are, there can be moments of inattention, and we are all learning all the time. We can be brilliant, but sometimes the unforeseen will beat us. In your case, there was undoubtably some bad luck involved.

 

[carpetbagger]

On Wednesday night I was on my road bike approaching a roundabout. Left lane to turn left, right for straight on. I could see a car approaching behind in my mirror and I positioned myself just inside the right lane allowing room for the car to pass either side. I was going straight on. The car came to my right side so also obviously going straight on. There were no cars on roundabout but 2/3 waiting to come on from our left. As we both entered roundabout at 20mph the car to my right suddenly veered across my path and turned left. How I missed hitting him in the side I do not know, i was very lucky, the first car waiting to come onto roundabout had window open and I think I heard an 'are you ok' beneath the volley of obscenities I aimed at the other driver.
I learned a lesson, don't ride considerately and allow cars to pass if there is room to do so.
Do ride bang down the middle all the way down the lane approaching a roundabout and right through until you clear it and make sure you hold the b*$^%*£s up as long as you can.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Sarcasm doesn't in any way offset the truth in Tillson's argument. It is an easily demonstrable fact that hazard perception and attitudes to risk vary greatly, and that risks of having accidents can be substantially reduced if one is open minded enough to realise what can be achieved.

My own case proves it beyond question.

You're brilliant Flecc. I've learnt so much from you, but I have a bad memory. Can you remind me again what do you do then when a dog's charging alongside trying to bite your leg. I've tried carrying a packet of dog treats with me, lobbing them at the approaching dog, but that didn't work. I also tried that thing that Crocodile Dundee does, but that didn't work either. I guess it's all in the wrist movement that takes a bit of practice, but I can't find a suitable tutorial. So come on: what's the secret?

 

[Deleted member 4366]

I was just thinking. I guess that piolot hadn't read his CHIRPS manual properly to get shot down by that Russian missile. Maybe he wasn't chirping loud enough.

Of course, there'll be plenty of people trying to blame the pilot because they won't get any compensation out of the Russians. Who's going to be first to say that it was his fault for taking a shortcut?

 

[flecc]

You're brilliant Flecc. I've learnt so much from you, but I have a bad memory. Can you remind me again what do you do then when a dog's charging alongside trying to bite your leg. I've tried carrying a packet of dog treats with me, lobbing them at the approaching dog, but that didn't work. I also tried that thing that Crocodile Dundee does, but that didn't work either. I guess it's all in the wrist movement that takes a bit of practice, but I can't find a suitable tutorial. So come on: what's the secret?

Of course I've never said every accident is avoidable and I would never pretend that is the case, but the incidence of accidents can be greatly reduced by almost any individual who occasionally suffers them.

However, I do have an account of a way in which such a dog was prevented from attacking me again. With not many routes out from my home, the most regular one took me past Beech Farm at the entrance of Beech Farm Road on the B269. Of the two farm dogs there, one, a greyhound with very sharp hearing would be ready to attack me at every passing. Of course there was no way I could attempt to outrun it since I was heading right into a busy T junction, so being ready with my pump to beat it back was my only defence.

Eventually I got so fed-up with this that I stopped, went into the farm yard and politely told the farmer what had been happening and asked him if he could do something about it. He assured me that he would, so I left and cycled on.

Turning onto the B269 alongside the rest of the farmyard I heard a loud shotgun blast. I was never bothered again and never saw that dog again. Of course that unfortunate outcome for the dog was not in my hands, but undoubtedly I had played a major part in solving that problem and preventing future attacks, inadvertent though the solution was. It's an illustration that there is almost always something that can be done to prevent accidents.

 

[oldtom]

I'm not going to criticise SRS for riding along Brighton seafront at 20 mph but what I will say is that, while most of us attempt to mentally legislate for the unexpected circumstance, all cyclists need to understand that bicycles don't stop very well from speed in an emergency.

It's almost inevitable that rider and machine will separate in collisions at speeds of 20 mph, (and even much less) so I rarely hit that speed unless I feel confident there is absolutely nothing around which might endanger me or others.

Where I live, tractors, Muntjack and Roe deer, foxes, badgers and believe it or not, low-flying birds, all present hazards more often than dogs and only last year, two teenage girls died when their little Citroen hit a deer. Their car burst into flames and they burned to death unless they were lucky enough to have been killed immediately by the impact of the animal coming through the windscreen.

It's not possible to legislate for every eventuality while cycling as there are risks involved in just about all road use and indeed, every leisure pursuit or sport in which we participate. With that in mind, I shall continue to practise a circumspect style of cycling at leisurely speed and hope for the best.

Tom

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Poor old doggie. It's a shame he hadn't read his CHIRPS manual

 

[flecc]

Poor old doggie. It's a shame he hadn't read his CHIRPS manual

Indeed, it certainly wasn't what I had in mind. The solution of a nearby stables with an aggressive collie is much better. They keep their five bar gate closed and much of the inside of the gate has a mesh covering which prevents the dog getting out. All it's able to do is furiously bark at me.

All we cyclists suffer dogs, but I've just remembered another solution from long ago. One dog that seemed to be wound up by the whine of my hub motor but didn't attack when I was only pedalling had become a big nuisance since it was a slightly uphill stretch. One day I got off the bike, dropped it and aggressively ran at the dog, chasing it back into the drive and all the way along it. It worked, it never even barked at me again!

 

[Alan Quay]

I find that a swift kick to the genitals does the trick on most dog owners.

 

[tillson]

Yes, that's a good strategy and l proved it works. I got run into the curb by a bus that had just overtaken me, which immediately swung to the left to turn right. I grazed my hand and knee quite badly. I modified my behaviour by not riding my bike for ten years, and, during that time, I didn't have a single cycle accident. When I finally got back on a bike (electric now), I was riding along a cycle path when a twig got caught in yhe front wheel and made a ticking noise. I immediately started to slow down to remove it, but it got hold of the front of the mudguard and dragged it back on itself to jam between the wheel and the forks sending me straight over the handlebars to land on my helmet protected head. I've now modified my behaviour again by not riding on cycle paths. So far, it's working because no more twigs have jammed my wheel, which is just as well because I'd hate to have to ride without a wheel.

d8ve, there is something unpleasantly conceited about your tone and you seem to be very narrow minded.

The aviation industry invests heavily in addressing the human factors which can lead to an accident and in particular training people to recognise that they are not infallible. Identifying the chain of events which can lead to an accident is absolutely crucial to safety and this extends to both ground crew and aircrew. More importantly, it also extends to every walk of life.

Lots of parallels can be drawn between aviation accident prevention and any other form of safety protection. It is a state of mind rather than a set of rules. Both of your accidents could and would have been avoided with a different mindset. CHIRP and GASIL, which stands for Confidential Human Incident Reporting Programme and General Aviation Safety Information Leaflet respectively and which you mock further on in the thread, are two respected publications in the aviation world. They allow pilots and ground crew to anonymously share their mistakes with others, the intention being that readers will recognise areas of weakness within themselves and modify their behaviour accordingly. You can also take a lot of other useful things to think about in everyday life from these publication too and they are both free to read.

The two publications supplement an extensive training programme in hazard awareness. One major hazard to safety to be identified is people's attitude to learning. Men in particular reach a point in their lives when they believe that they know it all. They cling on to a false security which they call experience. Usually this turns out to be nothing more than an unsatisfactory performance which has never developed repeated many times over through the years. They have somehow managed to get away with it and believe there is nothing left to learn. When challenged to consider their behaviour, the worst offenders resort to a behavioural profile identified as Child. A person regressing to a Child behavioural pattern is usually dismissive and mocking in their approach. This is a form of tantrum or stubbornness, hence the child label. I can identify large elements of this in your writing. (Stopped cycling, don't ride on cycle paths any more, misuse of the CHIRP acronym etc etc).

A very good friend of mine, like you, is very closed to the idea and frightened of self criticism (I tease him about it regularly). He is currently ahead of me 3-0 in the, "getting knocked or falling off the bike" score. I see that you are also beating me at least 2-0.

 

[tillson]

I was just thinking. I guess that piolot hadn't read his CHIRPS manual properly to get shot down by that Russian missile. Maybe he wasn't chirping loud enough.

Of course, there'll be plenty of people trying to blame the pilot because they won't get any compensation out of the Russians. Who's going to be first to say that it was his fault for taking a shortcut?

Should an evaluation have been carried out regarding the safety of the skies in that region of the world? This is a classic chain of events leading to a catastrophe.

Intended route passes through area of conflict >>> evaluation of situation >>> weaponry available >>> likelihood of attack >>> aircraft identification skills of those in possession of weapons >>> consider alternative routes >>> consider flight cancelation

Anyone of those links being broken could have prevented that aircraft from being brought down. I'm not saying that it is possible to achieve or negate all of them, but they are some of the elements which contributed to the incident.

I was just thinking. I guess that piolot hadn't read his CHIRPS manual properly.

Regression to Child behavioural profile?

 

[SRS]

Tillson Quote:

More importantly / interesting, if it were possible to re-create the exact same circumstances which you encountered 100 times with 100 different riders, I wonder how many of the 100 would fall victim to the dog?

I wonder.

Hazard perception varies greatly between individuals and I wouldn't be surprised to hear that you have fallen of your bike previously, or to learn that you have had another, "accident" at sometime in the future.

Last time I had a fall like this, I was 14 and it was a football that brought me down.
Many offroad spills but that goes with the territory.

As for the future, bound to have another if I keep using Brighton's cycle lanes. Even the council is busy installing special hazards.

I have noticed that the title of this thread is, "Dogs again". Does this imply that you have mentally absolved yourself of all blame and placed all responsibility for your injuries with the dog and it's owners? It sure does.

And, does "again" mean that there have been other instances of you running over dogs and hurting yourself as a result?
Ran into a loose one a couple of years ago, no damage luckily. I've also been pulled off twice by dogs and bitten several times whilst cycling.

If you are interested a couple of good aviation safety publications may be worth reading. GASIL & CHIRP are the most popular and some of the reports make you think about how you can modify your own behaviour in general so as to avoid future Injury. I'll certainly take look.

Hope the dog was ok.

At the end of the day, I do not think that loose dogs should be allowed on any route designed for vehicle movement. That includes roads and rail systems.