Do the cops care about illegal eBikes?

[nemesis]

It seems incredible that a high profile accident hasn`t happened yet involving an illegal derestricted or S class.
The constabulary may start to pay attention if it ever one does because i would say there are quite a few people riding them in the uk.

 

[soundwave]

we should make up some dongle detectors and sell them to the police

 

[nemesis]

we should make up some dongle detectors and sell them to the police

What is that device for.

 

[soundwave]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-29459896

 

[flecc]

Well if the police use their powers then they can end up fined 10's of thousands and they are legally obliged to hold records so all buyers if prosecuted face a minimum of 6 points and an unlimited fine and with the endorsements for driving without insurance undoubtedly they will be refused car insurance by some and spanked heavily for premiums by others.

You are mixing up user liability and suppliers again.

ebikeshop cannot be prosecuted and force to pay 10s of thousands of pounds for selling these dongles. Nor do they have to keep any records of those they sell.

Please stop posting this misinformation, only users are liable if employing them in public places. Sellers have no liability if they do not claim any legality, and they are perfectly entitled to sell such devices when they can be used legally in private circumstances.
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[flecc]

It seems incredible that a high profile accident hasn`t happened yet involving an illegal derestricted or S class.
The constabulary may start to pay attention if it ever one does because i would say there are quite a few people riding them in the uk.

Indeed there are. The first instance of an illegally fast assist e-bike was in early 2006, one capable of 22 mph assist speed when derestricted by simply unplugging a link wire. It immediately became the biggest selling e-bike for the next year and a staggering 38% of pedelecs forum members declaring what they owned rode one of these then. I'd guess most derestricted them

That was eventually changed on the new model after about 18 months to make them always legal. However, many others at the time could be derestricted to give around 18 mph. That's not serious though, since 17 mph assist has been confirmed by the DfT to be ok, since as with all UK speed limits, 10% tolerance is allowed. The police radars aren't good enough to reliably measure cyclists at 1 mph accuracy and officers wouldn't prosecute for 1 mph over the limit anyway.

According to many owners one well known ebike motor system assists to 17 mph as standard on the models it's sold in.
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[tringmotion]

You are mixing up user liability and suppliers again.

ebikeshop cannot be prosecuted and force to pay 10s of thousands of pounds for selling these dongles. Nor do they have to keep any records of those they sell.

Please stop posting this misinformation, only users are liable if employing them in public places. Sellers have no liability if they do not claim any legality, and they are perfectly entitled to sell such devices when they can be used legally in private circumstances.
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Untrue
Get your facts straight and if you want to look it up yourself.
If you ride an unregistered, untaxed, uninsured, non type approved moped (which is what these are) you as an individual are liable to these penalties
Also the VCA informed me as an economic operator I am liable to keep records.

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[Renax]

Also the VCA informed me as an economic operator I am liable to keep records.

You have to keep records, but do you need to keep records of who buoght from you? Is cash deals suddenly illegal in the UK. If I got into your shop and wanted to buy a unrestricted ebike, and payed in cash, how and why would you know my name?

 

[flecc]

Get your facts straight and if you want to look it up yourself.
If you ride an unregistered, untaxed, uninsured, non type approved moped (which is what these are) you as an individual are liable to these penalties
Also the VCA informed me as an economic operator I am liable to keep records.

Your latest post is dishonest, pretending you were saying users could be fined 10s of thousands.

You posted this quote:

"https://www.e-bikeshop.co.uk/

they sell and fit dongles to the bikes, nothing ever happens about it and they honer the warranty as well, no other dealer can do this."

And then said:

"Well if the police use their powers then they can end up fined 10's of thousands and they are legally obliged to hold records."

Clearly you were saying ebikeshop could be fined, and that was not true, ebikeshop canot be penalised in this way. As I said, your post was mixing up supplier and user liability, the two things are quite separate.

ebikshop emphatically do not need to keep records of the dongles they sell, perhaps you are getting mixed up with vehicles that are intended to be registered for road use?

Of course users can be prosecuted and I posted as much, so I don't understand your challenge.
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[Nealh]

Me think's you have quoted SW Instead of Tring above Flecc regarding e-bikeshop.

 

[Alan Quay]

Untrue
Get your facts straight and if you want to look it up yourself.
If you ride an unregistered, untaxed, uninsured, non type approved moped (which is what these are) you as an individual are liable to these penalties
Also the VCA informed me as an economic operator I am liable to keep records.

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Lasses/Chaps

This thread was not really intended to stir up the old usage/sales debate, although I concede that had I the mental capacity to look three moves ahead I should have seen it coming.

I think some late comers to the thread have missed the point. (that's my fault, I should have been clearer, see para 1)

In this case, 'The Retailer' is an actual police force. The seller, 'Devon and Cornwall police' is not a cunning eBay pen name. It is, in fact, just what says on the tin.

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[tringmotion]

Your latest post is dishonest, pretending you were saying users could be fined 10s of thousands.

You posted this quote:

"https://www.e-bikeshop.co.uk/

they sell and fit dongles to the bikes, nothing ever happens about it and they honer the warranty as well, no other dealer can do this."

And then said:

"Well if the police use their powers then they can end up fined 10's of thousands and they are legally obliged to hold records."

Clearly you were saying ebikeshop could be fined, and that was not true, ebikeshop canot be penalised in this way. As I said, your post was mixing up supplier and user liability, the two things are quite separate.

ebikshop emphatically do not need to keep records of the dongles they sell, perhaps you are getting mixed up with vehicles that are intended to be registered for road use?

Of course users can be prosecuted and I posted as much, so I don't understand your challenge.
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No the VCA has set in place a penalty structure meaning that they can be fined 10's of thousands if they don't have adequate terms and conditions related to off road use only.
If they're the economic operator (legal jargon for an importer who sells on goods for a profit) they are legally obliged to keep records. A sub dealer would not, but from what I have read they are the only UK seller.
They're selling parts which convert an EAPC to a moped and as the law deems them to be the professional, the onus would be on them to prove that they made clear that the part is illegal for road use.
I saw many fall foul in the motor trade on the onus of proof on the basis of fit for purpose.
The comment is correct and the advice I had came from the VCA when I was investigating the legal status of L1e-A

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[tringmotion]

Lasses/Chaps

This thread was not really intended to stir up the old usage/sales debate, although I concede that had I the mental capacity to look three moves ahead I should have seen it coming.

I think some late comers to the thread have missed the point. (that's my fault, I should have been clearer, see para 1)

In this case, 'The Retailer' is an actual police force. The seller, 'Devon and Cornwall police' is not a cunning eBay pen name. It is, in fact, just what says on the tin.

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I would not be sure they understand what they're selling!

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[Alan Quay]

I would not be sure they understand what they're selling!

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That's the point.

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[flecc]

They're selling parts which convert an EAPC to a moped and as the law deems them to be the professional, the onus would be on them to prove that they made clear that the part is illegal for road use.

Which is what all such suppliers do in various ways. Some just baldly state that, others say registration is necessary for legal use.

But that VCA advice I treat as meaningless, just empty words. They've never made the slightest attempt to prosecute the suppliers of the most blatantly illegal machines, such as mini-mopeds, illegally specified quad bikes, Segways and powered pavement scooters. This is despite the huge amount of trouble and cost they've caused the public and police.

Elsewhere in this thread I've posted on the many years of huge numbers of illegal e-bikes on our roads with nothing ever done about them or their suppliers, despite the authorities being fully aware of them throughout. Personally I wish there were no illegal e-bikes, but I recognise that nothing effective will ever be done about them.

If the authorities do nothing about their illegal use which is easy to tackle, they aren't likely to go after the suppliers who will be far more difficult to prosecute.
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[tringmotion]

Which is what all such suppliers do in various ways. Some just baldly state that, others say registration is necessary for legal use.

But that VCA advice I treat as meaningless, just empty words. They've never made the slightest attempt to prosecute the suppliers of the most blatantly illegal machines, such as mini-mopeds, illegally specified quad bikes, Segways and powered pavement scooters. This is despite the huge amount of trouble and cost they've caused the public and police.

Elsewhere in this thread I've posted on the many years of huge numbers of illegal e-bikes on our roads with nothing ever done about them or their suppliers, despite the authorities being fully aware of them throughout. Personally I wish there were no illegal e-bikes, but I recognise that nothing effective will ever be done about them.

If the authorities do nothing about their illegal use which is easy to tackle, they aren't likely to go after the suppliers who will be far more difficult to prosecute.
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Agreed, but suppliers are easier targets. When monkey bike sales were shut down, the police went for dealers

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[soundwave]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38578004

bosch made that device

 

[flecc]

Agreed, but suppliers are easier targets. When monkey bike sales were shut down, the police went for dealers

Not effectively, monkey bikes are still being sold by all the usual UK based dealers. Like this one doing it openly for example:

http://www.minibikecraze.co.uk/

As I posted, nothing is being or will be done about them. They make good profits and the government happily accepts the VAT and company taxes they pay.
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[Alan Quay]

If the authorities do nothing about their illegal use which is easy to tackle, they aren't likely to go after the suppliers who will be far more difficult to prosecute.
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Authorities/suppliers. Careful Flecc, you are almost on topic.

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[flecc]

Authorities/suppliers. Careful Flecc, you are almost on topic.

On consideration I think it's probably all on topic. Although the thread title asked if the police cared about illegal ebikes, I think that implies any of the relevant authorities who the police represent. Associated mopeds etc too, since an illegal ebike is technically a moped.
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