Do the cops care about illegal eBikes?

anotherkiwi

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 26, 2015
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Where? UK? My buddy just came back and he couldn't believe how cheap it was, only 3-4£ for a beer, thats a bargain!
Norwegians and the price of beer... When I went there in the 70's you already had to bring it with you because it was so expensive! We went to the supermarket just to look at the prices we couldn't afford to buy anything!

I took my nephew from NZ to a Spanish supermarket and he saw the price of a pack of 24 cans of beer and I saw he was confused so I said yes it is beer and not too bad. He replied " Can I have two packs?" :)
 

Steve UKLSRA

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 29, 2015
318
293
Porthmadog
www.ukbusas.org
I've met and chatted to a few officers of the Law locally whilst heading out/returning, those that noticed it was powered complimented me on my bike and were more interested in how to get one:)...so no, they don't care, the cops have better things to do round these parts.

For the Pedelecs 2-Five Oh...my bike is only ridden up int thills and I don't condone having a 48V 750W motor on the public highway:D...but it seems the real Police are still turning a blind eye to me;)
 

soundwave

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 23, 2015
16,851
6,485
they go mad round here if they see bikes converted with petrol motors on them.

only because of the noise tho pmsl ;)
 

Ocean

Just Joined
Jan 10, 2017
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London
Sorry for piggybacking this thread but I didn't feel this question needed a whole new post.

Surely it would be simple enough to print out a sticker stating 250W 48V and place it on your bike. When in fact your bike could be 1000W with a thumb/twist throttle. Then if/when the police stop you flick the switch limiting the power to 250W and disable twist throttle. There is then no evidence that the bike is over 250W, even if they test it (which seems highly impractical anyway, despite some claims I've seen saying they can do it at the roadside).

I suppose if you were very unlucky in that they tested it and managed to switch it to the high power mode you could not only be done for the vehicle offences but also perverting the course of justice. Has anyone actually done this/ something similar to this? Or does it have no legal standing?
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,152
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Has anyone actually done this/ something similar to this? Or does it have no legal standing?
These have no legal standing, they fall foul of the DfT rules on riders not being able to operate a switch or similar to change the legal settings for power or assist speed limit.

The link you gave is from 2009 and out of date. 250 watts has been permitted by a DfT waiver prior to 2015 and from 6th April 2015 made legal by an EAPC law revision.

There is no way that the police can roadside test a pedelec's power in accordance with the EN15194 technical regulation, nor are they equipped to do it anywhere else. The testing has to be done by approved laboratories.

As for labels, the regulations require pedelecs to have a manufacturer's plate stating power and battery voltage affixed to the bike in a clearly visible and easily accessible position. None of them comply of course!

Plates or stickers on motors have no legal status.
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Ocean

Just Joined
Jan 10, 2017
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London
It seems to me from what you are saying is that its very hard/ impossible to enforce any of these laws? Or am I misunderstanding what you are saying?

If there is no way for police to test the bike, then how is it possible for the DfT/Police to prosecute for an offence that is over 250w, assist speed limit etc.
 

Renax

Pedelecer
Jan 3, 2017
56
25
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Norway
Where I live every other 16 yearold gets a moped licence and buys a moped to drive around on. The moped is max 50cc and 45km/h speed limit. (is in if the moped can be driven 46km/h on flat ground its illegal.
Ofc, many will remove this limit, the old ones has just a exhaust brake limiting hp and revs, and its removed either just with two bolts or some you have to drill out.
The police has a tester to test moped road speed on, (like a one-wheel dyno who only measures speed)
My neighbor was stopped and had to be tested on his 80cc 120km/h capable moped. he instinctively plugged out the spark plug just enough to not make spark, but not so much that it fell off. when the police tried to start in and failed, they couldn't test it. I know a lot of people who have tried the same or similar things, but they aren't punished for trying not be caught. They just get the same fine and has to get the limiter back on their mopeds like everyone else who gets caught..
Its illegal to lie to the police about most things, but not about your own or your spouses illegal activities. well, it probably technically illegal, but you can't be punished for it, in Norway anyway.

Ocean, how do you propose they test your bike. sit on it and power ahead, if the speedo shows 30km/h you're busted? I'd just tell them the speedo is faulty...
 
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soundwave

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 23, 2015
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mine shows half speed so if im doing 30mph it says 15 on the lcd.
 
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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
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It seems to me from what you are saying is that its very hard/ impossible to enforce any of these laws? Or am I misunderstanding what you are saying?

If there is no way for police to test the bike, then how is it possible for the DfT/Police to prosecute for an offence that is over 250w, assist speed limit etc.
That correct. The law on pedelecs is complex and police officers rarely have any idea what it is. A few traffic officers have a little knowledge, mainly because some forces have tried out or even bought some pedelecs for police work.

Another problem has been the confusing mixed messages UK police forces have received from the DfT over the years, resulting from the following facts:

From 1983 to 6th April 2015 the EAPC regulation assist limit was 15 mph and only 200 watts was permitted, though that could be throttle controlled.

However, in parallel to that, from 10th November 2003 up to date, the Type Approval regulations permitted 250 watts and 15.6 mph, but banned throttles.

How can anyone, let alone a police officer, make any sense of those two between 2003 and 2015?

To complicate things further, the great majority of pedelecs sold from 1999 onwards were 250 watts rated while the EAPC law that the police followed stated the limit was 200 watts. That eventually lead to a couple of attempts at prosecution, but they failed when overruled by the DfT, probably through embarrassment.

Which gets us to the funny bit:

If asked during the 2003 to 2015 period what the law was, the legal department of the DfT would say 200 watts and 15 mph.

But the Vehicle Inspectorate department of the DfT would say 250 watts and 15.6 mph.

Those were because the legal department used the EAPC regulations and the Vehicle Inspectorate used the Type Approval regulations!

You can probably understand now that even if a police officer knows anything of this, they are likely to regard it as a hot potato best avoided. There's no shortage of much easier arrests.

Of course if someone rides an e-bike that's being sold as and possibly even marked as capable of greater than 250 watts and/or faster than 15.5 mph assist speed, the police can and may act, since that makes prosecution easy.
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anotherkiwi

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 26, 2015
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My speedo is off because I have big fat tyres and the Chinese don't let you set the exact circumference in the settings so I can never get caught for speeding when under power :) However in Irun you can be nicked on a pushbike if you are caught going over 30 km/h so I am very wary of speed cameras of the hand held flavour. As it has a motor it attracts attention so it is equipped as it should be and with approved accessories "just in case" tm.
 
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tringmotion

Pedelecer
Dec 15, 2016
45
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GB
To answer the original question, they only prosecute "in the public interest"
So if speed pedelecs become an issue like monkey bikes did, they will be all over it.
The penalties for suppliers are much stiffer than for the general public, so you will find those that are willing to do the work and those that are not.

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Alan Quay

Esteemed Pedelecer
Dec 4, 2012
2,351
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Devon
To answer the original question, they only prosecute "in the public interest"
So if speed pedelecs become an issue like monkey bikes did, they will be all over it.
The penalties for suppliers are much stiffer than for the general public, so you will find those that are willing to do the work and those that are not.

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The original question was really referring to the fact that Devon and Cornwall police are selling a 500-1000w lash up bike. They don't make any mention that it's not legal to use.

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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,152
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The penalties for suppliers are much stiffer than for the general public, so you will find those that are willing to do the work and those that are not.
Not so, there are no penalties for suppliers of machines illegal to use on public roads. That's why they are all freely available still. The law only concerns usage.

For example onn the following link there's just one of the speed pedelecs currently on offer from one of the largest UK pedelec suppliers: Link

They mention it needs registration but omit that this is impossible in the UK. In law they don't even need to mention the legality, only doing so to avoid any civil insurance claims.
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Renax

Pedelecer
Jan 3, 2017
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Norway
Yea, its perfectly legal to sell a non road-legal vehicle, otherwise everyone selling a car without plates could be prosecuted.
Don't think you'd have to explain to anyone that a car or motorcycle without plates are illegal to drive on the streets either, why should that be different on a electric motorcycle with pedals?
And if you buy a full on rally car or motocross bike, you should know that getting legal plates on them won't be easy, same thing on a electric motorcycle with pedals...
 

tringmotion

Pedelecer
Dec 15, 2016
45
14
51
GB
Yea, its perfectly legal to sell a non road-legal vehicle, otherwise everyone selling a car without plates could be prosecuted.
Don't think you'd have to explain to anyone that a car or motorcycle without plates are illegal to drive on the streets either, why should that be different on a electric motorcycle with pedals?
And if you buy a full on rally car or motocross bike, you should know that getting legal plates on them won't be easy, same thing on a electric motorcycle with pedals...
The terms and conditions of sale are critical as although you're correct to say it's legal to sell the onus is on the retailer as they're described as the professional in law.
I worked in the motor trade for years and selling anything retail that's non compliant gets you toasted if the buyer plays dumb. Been there, seen others do it and end up in court (for cars).
As speed pedelecs are mopeds in law, I can't be bothered with the hassle.

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soundwave

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 23, 2015
16,851
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https://www.e-bikeshop.co.uk/

they sell and fit dongles to the bikes, nothing ever happens about it and they honer the warranty as well, no other dealer can do this.
 

tringmotion

Pedelecer
Dec 15, 2016
45
14
51
GB
https://www.e-bikeshop.co.uk/

they sell and fit dongles to the bikes, nothing ever happens about it and they honer the warranty as well, no other dealer can do this.
Well if the police use their powers then they can end up fined 10's of thousands and they are legally obliged to hold records so all buyers if prosecuted face a minimum of 6 points and an unlimited fine and with the endorsements for driving without insurance undoubtedly they will be refused car insurance by some and spanked heavily for premiums by others.
Just because it has never happened doesn't mean it never will. Like I said before it will only happen if it's deemed to be in the public interest. This was repeated by the chap who said they only prosecute a narrow range of offences.
If you want to break the law it's up to you to weigh up the risks.

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