Do members think it is possible to produce a decent e bike for £1k

[M_B]

Definately possible... economies of scale are need from production, right through to distribution, servicing and parts, to bring the cost of these vehicles down if they are to gain any popularity in my opinion. That is going to lead to standardisation... At the moment these machines seem to be made almost 'bespoke', and distributed extremely inefficiently, they appeal only to a handful of enthusiasts...

What the e-bike market needs is another Henry Ford... prices should be going down... not up.

 

[Kudoscycles]

I used to work for Henry!
Dave
Kudoscycles

 

[Caph]

I think the more relevant question is what is the target market. A few of us here want an ebike with all branded parts for various reasons but I suspect most people want an ebike as a utility bike and don't give a hoot about which rear mech is fitted or the brand of the rims etc. For them decent carrying capacity and well fitted mudguards are likely to be more important and rightly so.

I still commute on my Alien GS1 and only refit cheap parts to it as and when required because it's not worth fitting expensive parts to a utility bike that takes so much wear and tear especially over the winter. It can carry way more than my electric MTB with much more expensive parts which only comes out in the good weather.

Now a decent utility bike for under 1k is very achievable and would leave a lot of room for a decent mark up to allow for decent after sales support.

 

[flecc]

Definately possible... economies of scale are need from production, right through to distribution, servicing and parts, to bring the cost of these vehicles down if they are to gain any popularity in my opinion. That is going to lead to standardisation... At the moment these machines seem to be made almost 'bespoke', and distributed extremely inefficiently, they appeal only to a handful of enthusiasts...

What the e-bike market needs is another Henry Ford... prices should be going down... not up.

I quite agree, but one stumbling block is that these very high priced e-bikes sell so well in the major markets of such as The Netherlands and Germany where more in total is now being spent buying e-bikes than is spent buying normal bikes!

While that persists, there's no pressure for manufacturers to respond to our tiny UK market's call for lower prices.

 

[M_B]

I quite agree, but one stumbling block is that these very high priced e-bikes sell so well in the major markets of such as The Netherlands and Germany where more in total is now being spent buying e-bikes than is spent buying normal bikes!

While that persists, there's no pressure for manufacturers to respond to our tiny UK market's call for lower prices.

I think thats a completely different market they are appealing to.

I'm just saying that *I'm* disinterested in spending £2.5k on a hand built bike using high priced off the shelf components from a few industry incumbents, with tiny production runs, using a traditional sole importer, and authorised retailer distribution model adding on their margins too. The bike is really only worth 0.5k

You come to sell them second hand, and you find out pretty damn quick how much the market thinks they are actually worth...

 

[flecc]

I think thats a completely different market they are appealing to.

No, it is the same e-bike market and there isn't another one. The notion that low cost quality e-bikes would open up another market in Britain is pie in the sky. Almost all our population don't cycle and don't want to, they haven't a clue about the quality of bike components and don't care either.

The major market for e-bikes is in mainland Europe where they show little interest in low price Chinese imports. The huge number of e-bikes sold there are predominantly quality Dutch and German machines with only the better Oriental production such as the Giant Freedom bikes sharing.

So that's where manufacturers aim their design and marketing efforts and as said above, they can afford to ignore the tiny part of the market that Britain is. The half million plus e-bikes sold per year in Europe may not be the biggest market ever, but it's hardly as tiny and bespoke as you assume.
.

 

[Mussels]

Saying utility bikes only need cheap parts seems foolish to me, utility bikes need reliable parts and for an ebike under a grand this is a tall order. Economy of scale would help but it's not there now so talking about it won't help.
Sometimes I'm interested in brands, rims are often weak and I like to know I'm getting heavy duty versions, the only way for that is to be able look up reviews. I'm not a brand snob and will happily mix Lidl gear with my sun rims as long as it does a good job. I can see why Europeans are happy to spend a bit more and I tend to be as tight as a ducks ar5e!

 

[Caph]

Saying utility bikes only need cheap parts seems foolish

The average Shimano Tourney mech will probably outlast me and unless you have a bike which is quality enough to feel the difference then anything better is pointless.

Your 20 quid Halford wheels will outlast you and unless reducing weight and increasing aerodynamics is of interest to you then anything better is pointless.

Unless you are off roading and need increased stopping power then even mechanical disk brakes are pointless, you might as well go with 99p V brakes with decent pads.

Utility bikes by definition obviate the need for quality components because they are not exposed to the same stresses and strains of a performance bikes and don't need to reduce weight, ebikes all the more so.

You might as well have said that it is foolish to not fit F1 parts to a Ford Fiesta.

Don't confuse cheap with non-reliable. Often it is the more expensive parts which are less reliable. Reduced weight and ergonomic design almost always lead to a reduced life span and an increased damage susceptability. It's the price you have to pay. You say that branded rims are better but with less strong alloys (to reduce weight) and less spokes (to reduce weight) they are often less reliable and don't last as long as a heavy steel fully spoked counterpart.

Cheap, long lasting, durable (and often heavy) parts are the mainstay of low cost bikes and they shouldn't be underestimated. You're not going to win any races on them but they will always win the race of how many shopping trips they can do.

 

[Abdul Shohid]

I agree with you Calph, I have a Kudos Cheetah, and while some of the components may be "cheap", its a darn comfortable ride with its dual suspension and thick tires. And as for reliability, I have not had a single issue in the 7 months I have had it, and touch wood it continues.

Decent in my opinion reliability and user experience (comfort/weight/handling etc), I think we should leave it to the lycra brigade to to continually fuss over the law of diminishing returns where each additional quid you spend only brings lower and lower improvements in user experience and as calph suggests sometimes at the cost of reliability.

 

[Woosh]

I totally agree with caph.
Our cheap bikes (like the £299 Angel) have practically indestructible steel rims and need almost no maintenance, often because they' re ridden like a motobike (on throttle alone).
But they do look like something coming from mid 60s eastern Europe.....
Some people might place more emphasis on looks than anything else in their quest for a 'decent' bike. Reading the thread about the Burisch bike for example, here is a bike that does not have a chain guard, mud guards, carrier rack or space for a water bottle yet would doubtless sell well on looks alone!
What about boring considerations like ride comfort and battery capacity? Let's face it, there's a tendancy amongst us e-riders to be on the chubby side, and if these things are good, they'll make for a decent bike. Full suspension bikes with fat tyres like our Zephyr are more comfortable to ride, especially when going over road humps....but don't look half as sexy as hardtail bikes.

And finally, should 'decent' bikes comply with EN14194?
I've noticed a lot of readers enthusing about bikes that clearly don't.
Bikes that allow 15-20 amps through a 36V motor are usually described as 'good hill climbers' (so in the eyes of the poster are very 'decent'). At Woosh we check how much power is delivered to the motor to make sure our bikes don't break any laws. To some, they may not be 'decent' because they conform, but to us they are. If someone has an accident and the police and lawyers get involved at least we've done our bit.

 

[indalo]

I totally agree with caph.
Our cheap bikes (like the £299 Angel) have practically indestructible steel rims and need almost no maintenance, often because they' re ridden like a motobike (on throttle alone).
But they do look like something coming from mid 60s eastern Europe.....
Some people might place more emphasis on looks than anything else in their quest for a 'decent' bike. Reading the thread about the Burisch bike for example, here is a bike that does not have a chain guard, mud guards, carrier rack or space for a water bottle yet would doubtless sell well on looks alone!
What about boring considerations like ride comfort and battery capacity? Let's face it, there's a tendancy amongst us e-riders to be on the chubby side, and if these things are good, they'll make for a decent bike. Full suspension bikes with fat tyres like our Zephyr are more comfortable to ride, especially when going over road humps....but don't look half as sexy as hardtail bikes.

And finally, should 'decent' bikes comply with EN14194?
I've noticed a lot of readers enthusing about bikes that clearly don't.
Bikes that allow 15-20 amps through a 36V motor are usually described as 'good hill climbers' (so in the eyes of the poster are very 'decent'). At Woosh we check how much power is delivered to the motor to make sure our bikes don't break any laws. To some, they may not be 'decent' because they conform, but to us they are. If someone has an accident and the police and lawyers get involved at least we've done our bit.

More excellent points Hatti and well put!

Indalo

 

[flecc]

I agree with Caph too. I made the point on the Agattu that I reviewed that the unbranded and unknown V brakes were some of the best I'd ever tested, and I saw no reason why they wouldn't outlive any bike.

There are certain components where the manufacturing quality is more important, that's the wearing parts of bearings, chains, sprockets and rims for example, but they don't have to be branded and the price of the brand name added to be well made.

 

[Mussels]

The average Shimano Tourney mech will probably outlast me and unless you have a bike which is quality enough to feel the difference then anything better is pointless.

Your 20 quid Halford wheels will outlast you and unless reducing weight and increasing aerodynamics is of interest to you then anything better is pointless.

Unless you are off roading and need increased stopping power then even mechanical disk brakes are pointless, you might as well go with 99p V brakes with decent pads.

Utility bikes by definition obviate the need for quality components because they are not exposed to the same stresses and strains of a performance bikes and don't need to reduce weight, ebikes all the more so.

You might as well have said that it is foolish to not fit F1 parts to a Ford Fiesta.

Don't confuse cheap with non-reliable. Often it is the more expensive parts which are less reliable. Reduced weight and ergonomic design almost always lead to a reduced life span and an increased damage susceptability. It's the price you have to pay. You say that branded rims are better but with less strong alloys (to reduce weight) and less spokes (to reduce weight) they are often less reliable and don't last as long as a heavy steel fully spoked counterpart.

Cheap, long lasting, durable (and often heavy) parts are the mainstay of low cost bikes and they shouldn't be underestimated. You're not going to win any races on them but they will always win the race of how many shopping trips they can do.

The Tourney mech will last fine but the budget freewheel attached to it will not, it will also give a limited gear range. Fine if you only do a small distance over easy ground.
Cheap rims are very thin, this gives a lower price and a lighter headline weight but they aren't strong. I'm not talking about getting bling rims but touring ones designed for heavy duty, so not expensive but still outside the $1000 price bracket being discussed here.
Durable parts can be bought cheaply but a budget bike is built to shave off as much cost as possible rather than producing a good value utility bike. Many people are happy with the bike shaped objects supermarkets sell but anyone that uses them more than a few times soon finds they are very poor.
The extra issue with ebikes is the battery, this is a great proportion of the cost and the good £1000 ebike is possible at the expense of a good battery. Again that's not an issue for people who do low distances.
So I guess it comes down to my requirements, having had a cheaper ebike (£1300) I am glad I paid more for my current one as it has saved me money and (lots of) time in the long run.
I reckon I can create a good ebike for about a grand but I need to do it by fitting a kit to a decent quality tourer.

Anyway where does this £1000 limit for the cycle to work scheme come from? I thought it was a fake limit perpetuated by the 'schemes' sold to companies that want to participate. Seeing as I work for myself now I'll be applying for a decent amount on the cycle to work scheme, otherwise I'd be after a 2nd hand donor bike to keep the budget as close to a grand as possible.

 

[flecc]

Kudos fit 36 volt 9 or 10 Ah LiFePO4 batteries which will probably outlive or at least match the best Li-polymer ones, and they are on their under £1000 models and cost only £208 as a replacement. I fitted a £9.99 Shimano Cadet six speed freewheel to my Q-bike which is almost as low as one can go in multi-sprocket freewheels, but its still fine at well over 6000 miles.

And as mentioned above, eZee fit Weinmann rims even on their £750 models.

Of course higher prices can bring many benefits and I like quality e-bikes, but a reliable daily use e-bike is perfectly possible for £1000.

 

[NRG]

There has to be compromises at £750 Weinmann rims or not unless eZee have got an inside track to the Elves working a bit on the side while Santa's back is turned. To leave some profit margin something has to give and I don't think is all down to driving the labour cost down.

 

[flecc]

There has to be compromises at £750 Weinmann rims or not unless eZee have got an inside track to the Elves working a bit on the side while Santa's back is turned. To leave some profit margin something has to give and I don't think is all down to driving the labour cost down.

Definitely, a 3 speed Nexus hub for starters and it probably has the status of a loss leader. But that's at £750, add the other £250 and many of the compromises can disappear.

I just say that given a sound reliable normal bike can be bought for £300, given the low cost of an SB motor set, and plus a £200 LiFePO4 battery, a sound £1000 manufacturer e-bike is perfectly possible.

 

[Nick H]

Ask again in a year when I have tested my 450 pound E-rolling Ebike more thoroughly. The retail mark up is what hammers the punter. As the market expands and ebikes are demystified I think value is likely to improve.

 

[Wisper Bikes]

Wow, absolutely delighted to have sparked of such an interesting thread!

Decent (or Descent!) is subjective and was the wrong word to use, (Not sure I actually used it, but that's journalists for you!).

Having tried so many bikes and indeed produced the £999.00 Wisper Eco there certainly are decent bikes available under £1,000.00. However, there is a huge market out there for people that want to buy the best bikes that have top notch components. This weekend I tried the AVE, the Storck, and the Kalkhoff all were head and shoulders above the cheaper offerings available. Maybe what I should have said was that increasing the limit to £2,000.00 would give the consumer more choice and get even more people out of their cars?

All the best

David

 

[Kudoscycles]

There are so many good points in the foregoing I almost don,t know where to start responding.
I agree with Flecc's point of branding,low weight and style does not necessarily produce a better bike in the long term. Our use of LifePo4 batteries is a good example,they have long life,perhaps very long life at low cost and so far have proven very reliable,we have over sold over 1000 bikes in our first trading year with battery problems less than 2 percent. But they are heavier so we are criticised for the weight of our bikes,generally 21 to 27 KGs. We have a performance range due out soon,where the emphasis will be on light weight so LiMn04 will be the choice to keep weight below 20kgs,but battery life will have to be compromised,however we will try to keep replacement battery costs below £250.00.
However,I still see no reason to stray far from our £1000 threshold point to produce not just a decent bike but a very high quality bike.
I have really enjoyed my first year of trading Kudoscycles,really enjoyed the challenge of a new and expanding market place. I would like to think that Kudos has bought a breath of fresh air to this fledgling business. The knowledge gained will be revealed in a truly innovative performance range but still maintaining that important price point.
Dave
Kudoscycles

 

[Mussels]

Definitely, a 3 speed Nexus hub for starters and it probably has the status of a loss leader. But that's at £750, add the other £250 and many of the compromises can disappear.

I just say that given a sound reliable normal bike can be bought for £300, given the low cost of an SB motor set, and plus a £200 LiFePO4 battery, a sound £1000 manufacturer e-bike is perfectly possible.

If the LiFePO4 batteries can regularly be run to empty then that is a good low cost option, my worry is they (similar to other types) only last a long time when they are not frequently run low. I know different cell types have different ways to work out capacity so a direct comparison of Ah may not be fair.
Even if it is comparible to normal LiPo batteries then it can be a decent bike but as with other cheaper components only for people with fairly short or untaxing rides.

As well as inflation we must remember the other goalpost that has been moved which is VAT, this has added a lot to the retail price with no benefit to retailer or consumer.