Disregarding UK pedelec laws

[Laser Man]

It is hard to respect laws which are widely regarded as being arbitrary and ill thought out. Such laws bring the whole legal framework into disrespect and lead to conversations such as those above : if I can break this law with impunity why shouldn't I break that one too. The pedelec laws are further undermined by the fairly frequent and apparently random changes that have been made over the last several years.

An example is the throttle thing : originally twist-and-go throttles were encouraged as a way of helping disabled people get into cycling. Then they were banned. Now they are back, but only on one specific bike model which has been through an expensive approvals procedure. This is clearly a daft situation.

Another example is the maximum 250W to be legal part, when this depends entirely on what the motor manufacturer decides to mark on the side of their motors. Anyone who has looked at the specifications knows that almost all "legal" setups can provide at least double and often treble the "legal" power until battery sag spoils the fun.

It won't get sorted out whilst we have governments (any party) obsessed with brexit and other tribal matters, so we'll have to muddle through as best we can.

 

[sjpt]

but only on one specific bike model

If you are referring to the recent posts by Whisper, I think that is just 'one specific bike'; not even 'one specific bike model'

 

[Fordulike]

I smell a troll

 

[flecc]

It is hard to respect laws which are widely regarded as being arbitrary and ill thought out.

They are far from being ill thought out and almost identical law is in force in most of the pedelec world, from Europe eastwards through to Australia. The carefully thought out basis is that they must remain bicycles to be not considered motor vehicles. It follows that progress is by pedalling, whether rider or motor power is in use. It also follows that they should be restricted when powered to typical cycling speeds, and worldwide that is typically below 25 kph (15.5 mph).

The pedelec laws are further undermined by the fairly frequent and apparently random changes that have been made over the last several years.

This is untrue, indeed we once had to wait 13 years for a simple correction. There's only the 1983 EAPC regulations and the 2015 amendments to that, so at 32 years apart, hardly frequent changes!

An example is the throttle thing : originally twist-and-go throttles were encouraged as a way of helping disabled people get into cycling. Then they were banned.

Again completely untrue. Twist and Go throttles were never at any time encouraged for anyone. The only reason we used to have throttles is that the 1983 EAPC regulation was badly drafted in not having any prescribed way of applying power.

That meant in the absence of law, any method could be used, so the Chinese used the cheap and easy way of fitting throttles. E-bikes from European countries, Japan and Taiwan didn't have throttles and were pedelecs.
.

 

[Andy McNish]

I have a restricted pedelec and commute into work mainly off road. For off road use/cycle paths 15mph is fast enough.

But if you do find yourself on a narrow road in traffic flow your options are to basically hold up all the traffic at 15mph, hop onto pavements or hang in the gutter and weave in and out of parked cars...none of these are very safe.
It is actually much safer to go with the speed of the traffic flow at say 20-25 mph in typical commuter traffic. And on a road (as opposed to a pavemnt or a cycle path) a cyclist is by the most vulnerable and least dangerous thing on it.

So whilst I wouldn't personally derestrict my bike, I find it hard to get upset about people who do it for road commuting.
Ethically a bad law can be ignored if it actually makes society less safe (assuming you follow consequentilist ethics which most of us do nowadays).

Speeding is an intresting comparison because there is usually a de facto 10% margin on faster roads.
Is someone who drives at 75mph on an empty motorway really committing a moral wrong?

 

[WavyDavy]

A law is a law, good or bad. If you are caught breaking them there can be consequences. A derestricted pedalec becomes a mechanically propelled vehicle and is subject to whole set of laws involving driving licenses, insurance, vehicle approval/registration etc. A mean spirited police officer or magistrate could throw the book at you resulting in heavy fines and potentially the loss of your driving licence. But first they have to catch you !!

 

[trevor brooker]

if people are disregarding a law - you need to ask - Why & what effect.
My guess on why is the current legislation is impractical. It was established to maintain a difference between pedal & motorised power. Nowadays we need to move on & consider the benefits of changing that on the basis of scientific evidence as to the most appropriate speed & motor power rating to provide safe road transport.
I assume (as an example) that those who disregard the law prefer to cycle at 20mph in a 20mph zone rather than increasing their risk of being involved in an accident by forcing every other vehicle to overtake them.
The effect of the law being ignored is lack of enforcement, otherwise its just ink on paper. Laws are always being passed, but rarely revoked. Sometimes centuries pass being people realise that by failing to carry out Longbow practise etc you are breaking a law.

 

[Deleted member 25121]

As Leighping says, more pedestrians have been killed when using their mobile phones than by illegal electric bikes. Are you on the phone forum ranting about that?

Who's ranting?

 

[Deleted member 25121]

Strange postings about breaking the law being a bad thing if car drivers are speeding because it risks lives but it's OK to break the law with illegal ebikes because nobody has been killed yet.

Illegal tax fraud doesn't kill people, does that make it acceptable?

 

[Andy-Mat]

Having followed postings on here for a month or 2 I get the impression that there seems to be a general disregard for the UK ebike laws regarding maximum assisted speed and motor power, I wonder if those who also drive cars have the same disregard for speeding and drink driving whilst driving their cars?
Or is it a case of it's OK to break UK laws because you can get away with it most of the time?

The problem is as I see, not obeying the law will possibly force the government to be more Draconian I feel, heavy fines for those caught, then we will all be made to have number plates, road taxes, insurances and the like.....
I feel that if we stay within the law, those sort of problems may not happen quite so soon!
I have to agree with someone else here, that the lawbreakers I see are often not e-bikers. Young people going through red lights, riding over zebra crossing seated on the bike and similar....
But e-bikers may still get a bad reputation....
regards
Andy

 

[Deleted member 25121]

I have to agree with someone else here, that the lawbreakers I see are often not e-bikers. Young people going through red lights, riding over zebra crossing seated on the bike and similar....

Some people would claim that cycling through lights on red is OK because nobody, other than possibly the cyclist, has been killed by doing so.

 

[vfr400]

A mean spirited police officer or magistrate could throw the book at you

You could be struck by lightning as you get your bike out of the shed/garage.

Which do you think is most likely? I'll tell you. 58 people have been struck by lightning in the last 30 years. none have had the book thrown at them for riding an illegal electric bicycle.

 

[soundwave]

do you know what i did when i first got my bike dongled? i went out and tried to get the police to chase me and 5 years later there still not bothered so there you go no point in laws if even the police wont enforce them so a total waste of time and space.

 

[RossG]

do you know what i did when i first got my bike dongled? i went out and tried to get the police to chase me and 5 years later there still not bothered so there you go no point in laws if even the police wont enforce them so a total waste of time and space.

You're going so damn fast SW the law can't chase you anyway !

 

[soundwave]

You're going so damn fast SW the law can't chase you anyway !

now if i had one of them small pit bikes that make a right bloody row plod is soon out chasing them down, not because the bike is illegal but because of all the noise complaints they get pmsl.

 

[Jimo]

Often when one is young one tends to disregard rules in many ways, I did so myself for many years on motorcycles, cars, trucks later known as HGV’s et al. When one ages one tends to regard rules as permits, break them and risk loosing a valuable comodity known as freedom! I’m now of such an age where such things matter more than they did in years past, for instance Loss of driving licence, loss of mobility in any form, legislation designed to remove personal rights like riding mobility scooters.... such legislation COULD be enacted so that perceived offenders would be disadvantaged by them, in short I am happy to stay WITHIN the law which enables me to carry on as I have done for for the last thirty years or so.

My membership of Pedelecs web site has been short to this point but I have to say the site appears to back up pedelec folk who like to manipulate rules to suit themselves regarding messing with speed restrictions set by law abiding manufacturers.


Jim

 

[Deleted member 25121]

Often when one is young one tends to disregard rules in many ways, I did so myself for many years on motorcycles, cars, trucks later known as HGV’s et al. When one ages one tends to regard rules as permits, break them and risk loosing a valuable comodity known as freedom! I’m now of such an age where such things matter more than they did in years past, for instance Loss of driving licence, loss of mobility in any form, legislation designed to remove personal rights like riding mobility scooters.... such legislation COULD be enacted so that perceived offenders would be disadvantaged by them, in short I am happy to stay WITHIN the law which enables me to carry on as I have done for for the last thirty years or so.

My membership of Pedelecs web site has been short to this point but I have to say the site appears to back up pedelec folk who like to manipulate rules to suit themselves regarding messing with speed restrictions set by law abiding manufacturers.


Jim

My thoughts entirely Jimo, when I want to go faster than 15mph I take my car.

Even if I derestricted my ebike i wouldn't want to run the risk of hitting a pothole or ice at high speed or having a car pull out in front of me from a side junction because the driver wasn't expecting me to be cycling at high speed.

 

[soundwave]

when i cant ride my bike anymore my mobility scooter is going to be epic 200bhp+ so should get the lap record going round the isles in tesco @100mph.

 

[anon4]

My bike which can do up to 25mph is currently awaiting a new controller. I am currently using my wife's which does the legal limit. I must say I feel a lot more vulnerable going 15mph, and don't feel that more speed is unsafe as long as the brakes are in good working order and common sense is used. I never get any grief from drivers as I'm always respectful of the highway code, when on paths I go slower if there are people around. My thought is 48v 20mph and a full throttle would be a better compromise, the speed mine goes suits me but could be dangerous with more irresponsible people.

 

[Artstu]

My thoughts entirely Jimo, when I want to go faster than 15mph I take my car.

Even if I derestricted my ebike i wouldn't want to run the risk of hitting a pothole or ice at high speed or having a car pull out in front of me from a side junction because the driver wasn't expecting me to be cycling at high speed.

At this point I think it is worth pointing out that there are hundreds of thousands of cyclists who will not agree with your opinion. For example this rider who hit 63 mph on this ride. https://www.strava.com/activities/2311786967