Please check this for yourself but I have read in the Which consumer mag several times that under “unfit for use” laws you have up to six years to make a claim although after six months you will have to get an independent report to support your claim. I’m surprised that Trading Standards didn’t mention this.
Help! Disposal or sale for spares/repairs?
- Thread starter hairyneville
- Start date
I think it will be a big ask to get a replacement bike with different drive supplied which is now at a greater cost then the original purchase, unless of course Kalkhoff them selves intervene and supply one. The original dealer I feel will only refund the purchase price if they have to at all.
The Independent report is easy someone like the Bearingman an expert with regards to back engineering mid drives would be ideal.
I agree completely, but of course, that should solve the OP's problems completely as well I feel.
regards
Andy
This post will possibly annoy some users/owners of mid motor users and sellers, but I do feel its justified criticism of many of the leading mid motor bikes, and their engineering qualities.
To make it simple, I liken the mid motor bikes to being similar to laptops, which are for a similar performance, are far smaller than a desktop, but probably double the price!!
Once the guarantee has run out, if an error happens with the hardware, you have usually 1 of 3 choices:-
1) Trash the laptop
2) Get it repaired by the manufacturer at a price that would probably pay 50% of the price for a newer faster Laptop.
3) Try to sell it/get rid of it cheaply to someone who repairs such stuff and maybe even resells.
Whereas, I see the hub motor bikes as being similar to Desktop and tower PCs. Easy to open up and replace parts, bought economically online, and many people are clever enough to unscrew and replace parts.
I myself have done this more times than I can count, as I started building PCs when the 80286 was the best CPU on the market (1982?), and until I bought my OWN first private Laptop in 2006, I built such machines for myself, the family and other friends.
Even if the first attempt to repair a desktop by replacing "misses the target", the parts are all relatively cheap and many sources, even secondhand parts are freely available (though I never buy secondhand memory, unless I can fully test it out before parting with any money!). And any parts that are still working but not needed, can be sold off on ebay or similar!
Recently, in January, my last laptop (2nd since 2006) gave up the ghost, and I decided to go back to a small desktop tower, and I managed to buy one, secondhand a Fujitsu Esprimo, with an extremely fast i7 CPU, 8 USB 3.0 ports, 16GB memory, Cherry Keyboard, mouse, and all the rest, sent to my door by a really pleasant ebay seller, for 200 UK Pounds, including transport......He even included, unasked, a second spare power supply.....
I like PCs to have at least an i7 CPU, as some of the work I did and still do, needs a lot of computing power!
I had to buy a screen, and I picked up a 2nd hand 19" Fujitsu Screen for 10 pounds, that someone had been trying to sell for 2 years!! It is in perfect condition, clear picture and has no scratches ANYWHERE and the guy lives just 10 minutes away from me by car. He even showed me it running before I paid!
But EVERYTHING is easily found, bought and replaced if there is ever a need to, and usually, repairs just need some different sized screwdriver bits and very little know how, in comparison to a laptop!
I actually do not remeber EVER having to repair my own Desktops, though I repaired a few for other people....so it is not something actually needed, but nice to have, "just in case!" Just like a hub motor bike...
I decided a long time ago, never to buy a mid motor bike, before I even bought my first e-bike, as the engineering side simply did not appeal to me at all. And I have never regretted this decision in the slightest. Reading on the web and here on Pedelec the cost of just buying a new mid motor bike today is horrendous, and the repairs and early life possible failures experienced by some, can also be horrendous....
I am sure that some of them (the greater majority?) work properly for years, but when laying out £1,600 - £ 2,500 or more, I want far more certainty built in, right up front!
I myself need a bike that I can repair and replace parts till I go to the e-bike heaven in the sky!!
I have not written this to offend anyone (but some here will be offended and get rude, as if that will solve anything!), but to open peoples eyes to the possible problems, as described in many instances on the web, and on Pedelec with regard to some mid motor bikes.
Remember, each of us must make HIS OWN choices in life. I have made mine, and it gets clearer and clearer to me, to have been a good choice for me personally.
I wish everyone a really great day.
Andy
To make it simple, I liken the mid motor bikes to being similar to laptops, which are for a similar performance, are far smaller than a desktop, but probably double the price!!
Once the guarantee has run out, if an error happens with the hardware, you have usually 1 of 3 choices:-
1) Trash the laptop
2) Get it repaired by the manufacturer at a price that would probably pay 50% of the price for a newer faster Laptop.
3) Try to sell it/get rid of it cheaply to someone who repairs such stuff and maybe even resells.
Whereas, I see the hub motor bikes as being similar to Desktop and tower PCs. Easy to open up and replace parts, bought economically online, and many people are clever enough to unscrew and replace parts.
I myself have done this more times than I can count, as I started building PCs when the 80286 was the best CPU on the market (1982?), and until I bought my OWN first private Laptop in 2006, I built such machines for myself, the family and other friends.
Even if the first attempt to repair a desktop by replacing "misses the target", the parts are all relatively cheap and many sources, even secondhand parts are freely available (though I never buy secondhand memory, unless I can fully test it out before parting with any money!). And any parts that are still working but not needed, can be sold off on ebay or similar!
Recently, in January, my last laptop (2nd since 2006) gave up the ghost, and I decided to go back to a small desktop tower, and I managed to buy one, secondhand a Fujitsu Esprimo, with an extremely fast i7 CPU, 8 USB 3.0 ports, 16GB memory, Cherry Keyboard, mouse, and all the rest, sent to my door by a really pleasant ebay seller, for 200 UK Pounds, including transport......He even included, unasked, a second spare power supply.....
I like PCs to have at least an i7 CPU, as some of the work I did and still do, needs a lot of computing power!
I had to buy a screen, and I picked up a 2nd hand 19" Fujitsu Screen for 10 pounds, that someone had been trying to sell for 2 years!! It is in perfect condition, clear picture and has no scratches ANYWHERE and the guy lives just 10 minutes away from me by car. He even showed me it running before I paid!
But EVERYTHING is easily found, bought and replaced if there is ever a need to, and usually, repairs just need some different sized screwdriver bits and very little know how, in comparison to a laptop!
I actually do not remeber EVER having to repair my own Desktops, though I repaired a few for other people....so it is not something actually needed, but nice to have, "just in case!" Just like a hub motor bike...
I decided a long time ago, never to buy a mid motor bike, before I even bought my first e-bike, as the engineering side simply did not appeal to me at all. And I have never regretted this decision in the slightest. Reading on the web and here on Pedelec the cost of just buying a new mid motor bike today is horrendous, and the repairs and early life possible failures experienced by some, can also be horrendous....
I am sure that some of them (the greater majority?) work properly for years, but when laying out £1,600 - £ 2,500 or more, I want far more certainty built in, right up front!
I myself need a bike that I can repair and replace parts till I go to the e-bike heaven in the sky!!
I have not written this to offend anyone (but some here will be offended and get rude, as if that will solve anything!), but to open peoples eyes to the possible problems, as described in many instances on the web, and on Pedelec with regard to some mid motor bikes.
Remember, each of us must make HIS OWN choices in life. I have made mine, and it gets clearer and clearer to me, to have been a good choice for me personally.
I wish everyone a really great day.
Andy
I think it's a question of liability - they'd never be able to shut the legal floodgates if anyone either in the company or in the supply chain (including stockists) admitted that the motors are faulty. I think that's what happened with PPI - the banks all had to admit to liability after a legal case, and then almost everyone who was ever mis-sold PPI was suddenly eligible for making a claim. I'd love it if the same thing happened in the case of Kalkhoff and their god-awful motors but I won't hold my breath.
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Usefully enough, Kalkhoff have extended the warranty for Impulse motors manufactured from 2017 onwards and purchased from 1 August 2017 and I'm pretty sure my motor is covered. Being under warranty should mean my case is a bit stronger.
I haven't yet got in touch with Trading Standards as I'm not 100% sure they'll accept the case as it currently stands. I now have a framework for recourse under the Consumer Rights Act 2015 which I plan to follow, and approaching Trading Standards may be a step to take further down the line.
Under Kalkhoff's newly extended warranty I think my motor may be covered for free replacement and the shop has actually offered that. My argument is that the motor isn't fit for purpose so replacing it under warranty for another faulty product isn't acceptable (though I reserve my rights to it). I'm insisting on a full refund and following the framework laid out under the Consumer Rights Act 2015 (so the Pro Connect i8 will have to stay in the shed for a while longer!).
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Andy - basically everything you said sums up why I don't want to get a car. I can remember the cars my dad used to have - a lot of parts were generic and even if he needed proprietary parts then he could just nip to the scrapyard and pay a few pounds for the part he needed, which he sometimes even stripped out of the scrap car himself!
I think I'm right in saying that almost all cars these days are nothing but proprietary parts - many with integrated electronics and a lot in sealed units with other components. Taking my dad as an example again, he can't do much servicing himself anymore because of all the proprietary parts and sealed units, so his most recent service cost £300!
When I bought my e-bike in 2017 I was advised that mid motors were more reliable and provided better assistance than rear hubs. Most online reviews still seem to favour this view - I can't remember the last time I saw a positive review of a rear hub e-bike (maybe I'm just looking in the wrong places!). My experience with mid motors as well as posts from other users on here have convinced me that mid motors are essentially the same as modern cars - expensive to buy, heavily over-designed and expensive/impossible to repair when things go wrong (especially if things go wrong a long way into the motor's lifetime)!
I'm hoping my complaint to the shop will (eventually) bear fruit, but in the meantime I was just wondering if Andy or anyone else on here is aware of a class action against Kalkhoff for their Impulse motors? I'd imagine any class action would be by plaintiffs in the EU, so hopefully Andy's German ability might help here! My simple web searches haven't brought up any results.
I think I'm right in saying that almost all cars these days are nothing but proprietary parts - many with integrated electronics and a lot in sealed units with other components. Taking my dad as an example again, he can't do much servicing himself anymore because of all the proprietary parts and sealed units, so his most recent service cost £300!
When I bought my e-bike in 2017 I was advised that mid motors were more reliable and provided better assistance than rear hubs. Most online reviews still seem to favour this view - I can't remember the last time I saw a positive review of a rear hub e-bike (maybe I'm just looking in the wrong places!). My experience with mid motors as well as posts from other users on here have convinced me that mid motors are essentially the same as modern cars - expensive to buy, heavily over-designed and expensive/impossible to repair when things go wrong (especially if things go wrong a long way into the motor's lifetime)!
I'm hoping my complaint to the shop will (eventually) bear fruit, but in the meantime I was just wondering if Andy or anyone else on here is aware of a class action against Kalkhoff for their Impulse motors? I'd imagine any class action would be by plaintiffs in the EU, so hopefully Andy's German ability might help here! My simple web searches haven't brought up any results.
I think they have effectively admitted liability with their actions. Before the two year extension of the warranty, another of their actions to deal with the Impulse problems was the rolling warranty. In that they promised that each replacemnt motor would have a fresh two year warranty, no matter how many times a motor was replaced.
That is surely an admission of liability.
All the details on that are within 50cycles posts in one of the old long threads about the Impulse troubles.
.
Flecc - That's definitely my interpretation of everything as well! Sadly the shop is claiming no knowledge of the fault and saying that Kalkhoff didn't make them aware of any problems so I've got a bit of a fight on my hands! All of the online evidence (on this forum and others, as well as on industry news sites) has been dismissed as anecdotal.
As BazP mentioned, I'm eventually going to need an expert report on the Impulse faults in order to get anywhere. If the Bearingsman is reading this and is willing to write a report then I'll be very happy!
As BazP mentioned, I'm eventually going to need an expert report on the Impulse faults in order to get anywhere. If the Bearingsman is reading this and is willing to write a report then I'll be very happy!
Thanks for that - I'll drop them a line.Conditions of warranty for your E-Bike and bicycle | KALKHOFF
www.kalkhoff-bikes.com
managing director: Jan Cornelis van der Heiden, Dr. Alexander Wünsch, Wolfgang Wildemann
Siemensstraße 1-3
D - 49661 Cloppenburg
E-mail: info(at)kalkhoff-bikes.com
Phone: +49 (0)4471.966-0
Hello Andy,
Without being offended or trying to be rude I have to say that I disagree with almost everything in your post.
I have built/repaired PC's and laptops, both being as easy, laptops maybe a little more pricey on parts. Not that I think that is a good analogy.
Most people today buy items that they have no intensions of fiddling with however expensive, witness the IPhone and my Prius Hybrid car.
Of the top of my head I seem to recall a lot more posts on this forum about faults with hub motors/controllers/batteries than crank drives. This may not apply world wide but is the case for this forum.
There are people on this forum quite capable of repairing hub motors/controllers but there are also people capable of repairing crank drives should anyone want to go in that direction.
Personally, if my motor packed up after 4 or 5 years I would invest in a new bike thinking that I had had my moneys worth.
Maybe the shop are trying to wash their hands of the bike and the warranty even extended by one year for post 2017 drives, they are liable to deal with said bike as the original dealer/vendor.
Hi Neville, here's a collection of information to help you:
First on this link:
Clacking noise - Kalkhoff Impulse 2 motor
In the table below you find all data concerning Impulse problems made by a member of the German pedelecforum, free to edit. It's a review of all complaints by different members, very informative:)...
www.pedelecs.co.uk
is this post by 50cycles detailing the indefinite running warranty for replaced motors, an admission of defects:
Hi All,
I hope you are all enjoying the great cycling weather.
In light of this situation to assure all our customers that own a Kalkhoff Impulse 2.0 bike that we at 50cycles on behalf of our loyal customers have managed to get Derby Cycles to extend the 2 year manufacturer motor warranty to be applied from the date of the unlikely event that a new Impulse 2.0 motor is fitted. Every time the motor does not last 2 years from the date the replacement was fitted.
This is unheard of in any motor or cycle industry warranty guidelines and we feel it shows that Derby Cycles are confident in the reliability of its own motor system.
If you do experience a motor problem please contact Joe directly on after-sales@50cycles.com
Best regards
50cycles Team
Next the link to contact the Bearing Man:
https://www.performancelinebearings.com/contact/
Finally, member redalexx, a 40 year old Pedelecer from Stuttgart, Germany has been compiling a register of failures of the Impulse units in a whole range of e-bike makes. The spreadsheet link appears in this thread post:
https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/ongoing-reliability-of-kalkhoff-focus-impulse-2-motors.24290/post-334464
And this is the spreadsheet link:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1WQ6DqHS4uXCNybjnlXZD3dOU_ylw5Qwsc0_89coCsF0/edit#gid=0
I think that combination of information is difficult to dismiss as anecdotal, especially the indefinite warranty and redelexx's painstaking spreadsheet with the many bike makes using failed Impulse units detailed.
Translations of the occasional other languages in the final action column entries:
Selbst geöffnet und gefettet = Opened and greased
Austausch = Exchange
Reparatur = Repair
Échange = Exchange
.
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Thanks for that! The spreadsheet in particular is exactly the kind of thing I've been looking for. The laughable thing is that, after dismissing the evidence I gave as "anecdotal", the shop went on to say something along the lines of "We've only replaced 6 motors out of many Impulse bikes sold"!Hi Neville, here's a collection of information to help you:
First on this link:
Clacking noise - Kalkhoff Impulse 2 motor
In the table below you find all data concerning Impulse problems made by a member of the German pedelecforum, free to edit. It's a review of all complaints by different members, very informative:)...
is this post by 50cycles detailing the indefinite running warranty for replaced motors, an admission of defects:
Hi All,
I hope you are all enjoying the great cycling weather.
In light of this situation to assure all our customers that own a Kalkhoff Impulse 2.0 bike that we at 50cycles on behalf of our loyal customers have managed to get Derby Cycles to extend the 2 year manufacturer motor warranty to be applied from the date of the unlikely event that a new Impulse 2.0 motor is fitted. Every time the motor does not last 2 years from the date the replacement was fitted.
This is unheard of in any motor or cycle industry warranty guidelines and we feel it shows that Derby Cycles are confident in the reliability of its own motor system.
If you do experience a motor problem please contact Joe directly on after-sales@50cycles.com
Best regards
50cycles Team
Next the link to contact the Bearing Man:
https://www.performancelinebearings.com/contact/
Finally, member redalexx, a 40 year old Pedelecer from Stuttgart, Germany has been compiling a register of failures of the Impulse units in a whole range of e-bike makes. The spreadsheet link appears in this thread post:
https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/ongoing-reliability-of-kalkhoff-focus-impulse-2-motors.24290/post-334464
And this is the spreadsheet link:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1WQ6DqHS4uXCNybjnlXZD3dOU_ylw5Qwsc0_89coCsF0/edit#gid=0
I think that combination of information is difficult to dismiss as anecdotal, especially the indefinite warranty and redelexx's painstaking spreadsheet with the many bike makes using failed Impulse units detailed.
Translations of the occasional other languages in the final action column entries:
Selbst geöffnet und gefettet = Opened and greased
Austausch = Exchange
Reparatur = Repair
Échange = Exchange
.
I contacted Peter the Bearing Man directly and he's not in a position to write a report, but he did give me an excellent suggestion of a good question (maybe THE question) to ask: if Impulse motors are so reliable, why aren't they being used on new bikes?
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