Disc brake issues

lightning

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Mar 26, 2022
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l asked the shop to fit new tyres and am guessing it's them who didn't reassemble the brakes properly

The brakes are Hayes and work well, once properly set up.

My friend has the Onebot, l've ridden both bikes and we've been on rides together and the difference between his bike, and the Mirider, is a lot more than the brakes being better.

Whether it's £700 of difference in actual money, l don't know. But we'd both pay it.

For example we went out in the rain and the Onebot broke down. His battery expires before mine. My seatpost is a dual telescoping one that adjusts more. Mine is noticeably lighter. I've got a better controller with more assist levels. His bike rattles on rough tracks. Mine has more torque and goes faster up hills.
 
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Andy-Mat

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Oct 26, 2018
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It's not the fact they're cheap brakes that worries me: Mechanical discs IMHO are adequate for a lower cost, small-wheeled folding ebike.

It's the fact you're paying a premium for what is in essence a sub-£700 Onebot Chinese ebike and the extra £700 premium you're paying for the "British" MiRider is in part for the "assembled in Britain" bit... including the brakes, which differ from the Onebot. Is that poor attention to brake set-up typical?

It's a bit alarming.
I see where you are going, but I take umbrage with the word "cheap", especially where disk brakes are concerned!
Cheap is NOT synominous with bad or poor quality, it just means they cost less.
I ride a cheap bike with (I am fairly sure) cheap disk brakes. But if they arrested my bike any faster, I would be flying over the handlebars. I have NEVER needed to use full braking, except when making sure that they work well after adjustment and/or pad replacement..
My (cheap) brakes are progressive and very easy to regulate "dosage".
I did not pick them, they were supplied with my bike, and if i ever had the feeling that they were in some way, poor in action, I would have replaced them with something better, long ago, using the huge sum of money I saved by buying cheaply but well!
I believe that Stark selected them because they worked well, and kept the overall price of the bike down to a reasonable level. Don't forget that my bike in its basic form, only cost US$399, or about 319 UK Pounds at today's rates, in 2017........Its $499 today!
I have no idea who made the calipers, and when one of the adjusters (plastic) on the front brake, succumed(?) to UV light, I bought a similar no name one on ebay to keep me riding (€12), and I replaced the plastic adjuster with a self made stainless steel adjuster, and then swapped them back, so the original caliper, with my adjuster, is still in use today.

I have pictures of before and after if anyone wishes to see them, just ask.
Cheap is not to be simply confused with bad quality, nor is expensive to be confused with good quality either, by the so called "bike Snobs!"!!
A mistake made often by e-bike users, when buying their bikes and paying thousands of pounds for the privilege, but it is their money to waste if they so wish! :)
regards
Andy
 

nigelbb

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Sep 19, 2019
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Hydraulic disk brakes were a revelation for me compared to traditional bicycle brakes. They are just so much better they must contribute to safety both on eBikes & regular bicycles.
 

lightning

Esteemed Pedelecer
Mar 26, 2022
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Hydraulic brakes are indeed in a different league to mechanical brakes, l've got them on my Kona.

But mechanical disc brakes do work well, and are themselves better than rim brakes, that often become ineffective when wet, and (unless you get the good ones) are tricky to adjust when the pads wear.
 
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Andy-Mat

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Hydraulic brakes are indeed in a different league to mechanical brakes, l've got them on my Kona.

But mechanical disc brakes do work well, and are themselves better than rim brakes, that often become ineffective when wet, and (unless you get the good ones) are tricky to adjust when the pads wear.
:) :) :) :) :)
 

lightning

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Mar 26, 2022
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l found out today that Mirider are now offering their folding ebike with hydraulic disc brakes, shame l missed out by a month.
 

AndyBike

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Nov 8, 2020
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Hydraulic disk brakes were a revelation for me compared to traditional bicycle brakes. They are just so much better they must contribute to safety both on eBikes & regular bicycles.
Ive been using discs since about 1996. Hope C2's, then Enduro 4's, minis, Ti6, mono M4, mono, mono pro, moto V2,tech evo m4's and ive a set of tech 3 V4's waiting to go on in the next month or two.
Soon as i can pick up a pair of the new tech 4 levers, those will be swopped over from the tech 3 levers.
I've even got a couple of new old stock sets of Hope mechanical sitting in a box somewhere.

But im not completely blinkered to Hope kit, I've used shimano XT,Saint and XTR and the higher end shimano are extremely good.

Hydraulic discs are by a huge margin the best type of brakes for MTB, and for sure Emtb's
XT 4 pot is probably one of the best mid range priced brakes to upgrade any ebike outwith the extreme disciplines.
 

lightning

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Mar 26, 2022
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l don't think there's any argument about hydraulic disc brakes being the best for bikes.

Great modulation and feel, as powerful as you want, unaffected by water
and mud, no fiddly pad adjustment needed, easy pad change, cheap to buy.....there's no downsides at all.
 

Andy-Mat

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Oct 26, 2018
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l don't think there's any argument about hydraulic disc brakes being the best for bikes.

Great modulation and feel, as powerful as you want, unaffected by water
and mud, no fiddly pad adjustment needed, easy pad change, cheap to buy.....there's no downsides at all.
You could be right, but the few times I have ridden a bike with hydraulic Disks, I did not notice any noticeable in applicational differences to good mechanical disk brakes using cables.
And I was hoping to notice something better.....and was already planning to change mine, once I had decided what to buy.
I am sure that with your experience, you will have noticed something different/more, that I completely missed, but it is not strikingly better IMHOO.
I do remember when I went from V brakes, which I was happy with, till I tried Disks..... as that difference was easily noticed! Not forgetting that the braking in the rain was also substantionally better as well.
I know that I desided not to waste my money on something that I could not measure or feel a substantial difference, as I could lock the wheels with either.....
This article made great sense to me, and also helped stop me buying hydraulic too, as it demiónstrated the negative side of hydraulics:-
Regards
Andy
 

matthewslack

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Nov 26, 2021
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The big differences come with four (and even six) piston calipers, which simply cannot be matched for power and in case of e.g. Hope M4 with different sized piston pairs, controllability and feel by any mechanical version.

In good order, they are truly astonishing.
 

Andy-Mat

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Oct 26, 2018
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The big differences come with four (and even six) piston calipers, which simply cannot be matched for power and in case of e.g. Hope M4 with different sized piston pairs, controllability and feel by any mechanical version.

In good order, they are truly astonishing.
You have explained the problems succinctly, because when I tried Hydraulic brakes, I did not have a clue as to the number of pistons they had......I was simply comparing them in my head to my mechanical disk brakes.
Thanks for the explanation.
Andy
PS One local colleague, who changed to hydraulic brakes a good 12 months ago (at least!), who was telling us how he liked them after his previous mechanical disks, has recently (I have no idea when, as he is apparently trying to keep it secret for some reason!), removed them, because he had a close call when fluid got lost from the front brake, and he did not notice, till he used the brakes in an emergency stop.
Luckily the rear brake did stop him, but skidded at the same time apparently. I only heard this 2nd or 3rd hand......if I hear more, I will post it.
Maybe he had cheapo ones, I really do not know, bu he is very reluctant to talk about it, apparently!
Sadly, he has a reputation as someone who knows everything better than everyone else........so he gets basically, little or no sympathy from anyone.....also not from me either.....
I lost sympathy, some (2019) years ago, (he is someone who farts standing right next to you with no warning at all), he was standing about a meter away from me, did a loud fart, which was not all gas! He was wearing shorts, and let me say that he had to change his socks as well when he got home! UGH!!!
Then, he wanted me to drive him home, still covered in **** (his car!), both of us with 2 liters of good German beer inside us, and me therefore with no insurance anyway, plus I do not drive with alcohol in me, and he got REALLY pissed at me when I said NO!! I simply called his wife and she had to walk about 2 KMs, to where the car was parked. She hates me too because of that!! :D:p:eek:o_O:p
We have not spoken since I am most happy to say!!
He is one of those low IQ people, with the Dunning/Kruger effect problem, that claims an IQ of 146! More than Einstein.....
regards
Andy
PS See more here:- https://www.britannica.com/science/Dunning-Kruger-effect
 

soundwave

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May 23, 2015
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my bike has pad contact adjusters and adjustable levers so can keep the same brake feeling while the pads wear down.

i have only had to bleed them once and go for about 50 quid on ebay.

 

AndyBike

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Nov 8, 2020
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This article made great sense to me, and also helped stop me buying hydraulic too, as it demonstrated the negative side of hydraulics:-
Regards
Andy
I watched the vid, and at no point did it favour one over the other.
He certainly praised hydro's as more maintenance free, and on that note I can say that vast majority of people buying a bike these days, whether electric or manual have little idea about how to maintain or service a bike or for that matter the brakes.

When i worked in the bike shop repairing peoples bikes, the vast majority of servicing required were things like mech adjustments, brake adjustment, pad replacement, but also it seems many customers were clueless in even being able to fix a puncture. Or for that matter able to take up the slack on a stretched cable
He did mention about how a downside for hydraulic is you need some 'special' tools to bleed them. Special tools are in fact a piece of clear plastic tubing and a spanner. Hardly 'specialist'.

But from my experience working on peoples tatty bikes that they have done nothing to since buying, even needing to adjust cable disks, they'd still take them into a shop and have us do it for them.

A company speccing cable brakes is the cheapest option for them. All the cheap bikes use cable, because they are cheaper to buy than hydraulic for their bikes that are priced at the lower end.
And at slow pottering through the town they are more than adequate, and better in the wet than v's, especially the low end V's many cheaper bikes have.



But for a bike that weighs 50-70lbs, doing any sort of speed, in an offroad setting, cable brakes arent up to the job. Were they as good as , all MTB's would have cable, or even a portion, but the truth is none do, and they dont because they simply dont have the power needed in that setting.
Your argument is simply based on town pottering being good enough, and from that all hydros in all settings is a waste of time.



From the vid. I took Hydro's are fit and forget, cable are maintenance hungry. Again hardly an argument against their use or fitting.



" PS One local colleague, who changed to hydraulic brakes a good 12 months ago (at least!), who was telling us how he liked them after his previous mechanical disks, has recently (I have no idea when, as he is apparently trying to keep it secret for some reason!), removed them, because he had a close call when fluid got lost from the front brake, and he did not notice, till he used the brakes in an emergency stop. "


Odd story. Cant think of a time ive got on a bike and not used a finger on the front lever just to steady the bike. And ive never ever had a system suddenly fail by all the fluid leaking out of its own accord. Either he forgot to do up the bleed nipple or something like that, butt either way a fail of a single brake isnt any sort of argument against that type of brake.
Cable brakes use a cable that could snap if not maintained and allowed to rust int he housing, or not tightened at the brake clamp end. Again, something the user or mechanic did, and in no way testimony to the capability of the brake system itself.
 
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soundwave

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Andy-Mat

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Oct 26, 2018
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I watched the vid, and at no point did it favour one over the other.
He certainly praised hydro's as more maintenance free, and on that note I can say that vast majority of people buying a bike these days, whether electric or manual have little idea about how to maintain or service a bike or for that matter the brakes.

When i worked in the bike shop repairing peoples bikes, the vast majority of servicing required were things like mech adjustments, brake adjustment, pad replacement, but also it seems many customers were clueless in even being able to fix a puncture. Or for that matter able to take up the slack on a stretched cable
He did mention about how a downside for hydraulic is you need some 'special' tools to bleed them. Special tools are in fact a piece of clear plastic tubing and a spanner. Hardly 'specialist'.

But from my experience working on peoples tatty bikes that they have done nothing to since buying, even needing to adjust cable disks, they'd still take them into a shop and have us do it for them.

A company speccing cable brakes is the cheapest option for them. All the cheap bikes use cable, because they are cheaper to buy than hydraulic for their bikes that are priced at the lower end.
And at slow pottering through the town they are more than adequate, and better in the wet than v's, especially the low end V's many cheaper bikes have.



But for a bike that weighs 50-70lbs, doing any sort of speed, in an offroad setting, cable brakes arent up to the job. Were they as good as , all MTB's would have cable, or even a portion, but the truth is none do, and they dont because they simply dont have the power needed in that setting.
Your argument is simply based on town pottering being good enough, and from that all hydros in all settings is a waste of time.



From the vid. I took Hydro's are fit and forget, cable are maintenance hungry. Again hardly an argument against their use or fitting.



" PS One local colleague, who changed to hydraulic brakes a good 12 months ago (at least!), who was telling us how he liked them after his previous mechanical disks, has recently (I have no idea when, as he is apparently trying to keep it secret for some reason!), removed them, because he had a close call when fluid got lost from the front brake, and he did not notice, till he used the brakes in an emergency stop. "


Odd story. Cant think of a time ive got on a bike and not used a finger on the front lever just to steady the bike. And ive never ever had a system suddenly fail by all the fluid leaking out of its own accord. Either he forgot to do up the bleed nipple or something like that, butt either way a fail of a single brake isnt any sort of argument against that type of brake.
Cable brakes use a cable that could snap if not maintained and allowed to rust int he housing, or not tightened at the brake clamp end. Again, something the user or mechanic did, and in no way testimony to the capability of the brake system itself.
Nobody knows exactly what went wrong, as the guy is a complete moron, and in spite of his "wished for" IQ, he has only worked 10 years in the last 35. Some years ago he retrained as a bus driver, and managed to have 3 accidents in less than 3 weeks, all with parked cars! They let him go as he was costing more money than he made!
By the way, he is mechanically an idiot too, but he always knows better than anypne else.....duuhhh!
regards
Andy
 

GLJoe

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May 21, 2017
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.. the few times I have ridden a bike with hydraulic Disks, I did not notice any noticeable in applicational differences to good mechanical disk brakes using cables.
I think that tells us all we need to know.
 

AndyBike

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Nov 8, 2020
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I dont want folk to think im a cable disc hater, because there are very good cable operated systems out there,its just those never get mentioned specifically, which leaves novices thinking all are as good as the other. This is very much not the case.
It's just I grew up with hydraulics. Maybe a bit bias or a bit of a bike whore lol

TRP make excellent cable operated systems, where both pads are actuated,(£50-£65 each)Spyre / Spyre SLC

Shimano Ultegra use a hydraulic caliper operated by a cable.(£75 each)

Hope technology do a cable actuated hydraulic braking system(though pretty much specifically aimed at drop lever users)


But these are the exception to the rule, and as with approaching any subject, especially one as important as a braking system, you should do your homework and not base a purchase on the cheapness of a particular type or brand. Just because its on the bike,, doesn't mean it should stay on the bike and its as good as any other.
 
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StuartsProjects

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May 9, 2021
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The big differences come with four (and even six) piston calipers, which simply cannot be matched for power and in case of e.g. Hope M4 with different sized piston pairs, controllability and feel by any mechanical version.
In good order, they are truly astonishing.
I have a pair of the original M4s on my MB, they are good.

They were bought almost 20 years ago, I I thought they would need to be scraped as they were all locked up when I recently did a eBike conversion. However, Hope will still service them, and they are now as good as new.

46875
 

soundwave

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May 23, 2015
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you can get 220mm hope rotors now.

no idea what post mount you would need for the rear tho as i have a 180 to 203 adaptor on the back that was a pita to find.
 

lightning

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Mar 26, 2022
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Can you get dual piston cable brakes? The main issue with my cable operated disc brakes is that they only operate on the outer brake pad so it basically pushes the disc against the inside brake pad.

Although it works, it's not an ideal system as the disc gets warped every time you apply the brake unless you stop them up very carefully.